IGX

My wife and I have a baby due in July, Dunn's got one coming, and I've seen a lot of friends shift into 100% parent mode, so I'm interested in the perspective of the parents here. Louis CK was interviewed and had the following to say about being a dad.

The road really sucks when it's all you have; it's really sad. It's very lonely out there. So I was happy to be in a family and be married and everything. ... When I first got married and had kids, I had some friends I played poker with on Mondays and I thought: The poker game on Mondays, that's the water line. If I don't make that game, I'm losing something. I'm losing something if I don't make it to that game. It means I'm letting go of my youth, I'm letting go of my manhood, all these things — my independence.

But then after a while I realized: Why would I want to go play poker with a bunch of guys in a smoky room when I could be at home with my family? I realized that a lot of the things that my kid was taking away from me, she was freeing me of. There was this huge pride in having a kid and also that I didn't matter anymore. The greatest thing about having a child is putting yourself second in your own life. It's a massive gift to be able to say you're not the most important person to yourself.

I'm fully aware that fatherhood shifts ones priorities in ways that single people and non-parents don't expect, so I'm not dismissing this outright. But the bolded section feels off to me. Presumably hanging out with a "a bunch of guys," sometimes referred to as "friends," was a worthwhile activity before he had a kid. And there's no shortage of time spent with kids, probably more than is necessary in the days of helicopter parents. So part of what he's saying here feels a little bit like rationalization to me: he's immensely entertained by his kids, so given the choice of Activity A and Hanging out With Kids, Activity A loses out. But probably to his detriment if you look at what makes people happy long-term.

So I personally expect to have certain benchmarks of non-kid activity/behavior, because my current thought process is, "Yeah, the kid is the most important thing, but raising a kid is like a fascinating hobby in that it will soak up every single second, dollar, and sacrifice you're prepared to throw at it. So set boundaries beforehand."

Wondering what others thoughts are on this.

a child is a poor substitute for a puppy.

recall your sperm.

I can only give my experience as a father: parenthood did force me to give up some activities that I previously enjoyed or felt were important. Some of those things I miss, and some of those things turn out not to be as important as I thought they were.

It's important to strike a balance between your existence as a parent and your existence as an adult with your own set of needs and desires. Where one draws that line is highly individual, and outside of the truly marginal cases (e.g. abandoning your kids or having a nanny raise them on one end, or entirely subsuming your individuality to your kids on the other end) it's impossible to say where the right place to draw the line is. That's for you and your family to figure out.

Louis ck seems to have found the place that works for him. That may not be what's best for you and your family.

Edit: adding, as a working comic and actor, he probably has demands on his time that take him away from his kids in a way that most of us don't.

Not a minute I spent with my kid was wasted time.
Having a kid is life-changing; IMO it's natural to draw imaginary lines that you as a non-parent think you shouldn't cross when you become a parent. But those lines may not hold up to Real Life, and you may not want them to.

You'll figure it out.

Everything changes in the delivery room. Not until then. Us women freak out and imagine a bunch of stuff, but seriously, when you see the little one in person, its nothing you can imagine right now. And yeah, most people realize that the things we concern ourselves with before we had kids don't really stay all that important. You'll get back to it. But, when you have this precious little thing that loves the sound of your voice staring at you with nothing but love and wonder, you kind of forget about poker games and stuff like that.

Its kind of like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GIyTFl4Cb4[/youtube]

I had to look-up who Louis CK was before I responded.

Man, I'm a piss poor example for your needs but perhaps you'll get some insight, regardless....you've known me for what? 12-13 years?

Anyway, here goes some brainstorming, JME, yada, yada:

-my wife and I were shacked up together forever before getting married (20 years this year)
-when we finally decided to have kids, I was in my late 30's, her in mid 30's
-I was making 'ok' money before we had kids; I didn't start making 'good' money until our daughter was 2 or so; when our son was born, I was doing much better but we still struggled some.....
-we made the decision that she would 'stay home' and raise the kids and I would be 100% responsible for the income
-we live a nice life, but hardly are planning any two week cruise to Hawaii anytime soon & people who make less money than I do live in nicer homes--I'm cool with that--because my wife is raising our kids instead of a nanny or daycare (YMMV, of course, so don't take that the wrong way)
-I've been scrapping and hustling for so long that I really didn't have too many planned 'guy's time' type stuff outside of upland hunting and bow hunting (before my knee problems); so I didn't give up anything by way of 'nights out with the guys' type stuff for the most part
-I cannot begin to tell you how many times dog training clients (who were parents) would tell us "you'd make great parents, ect, ect" by way of what we'd say about timing/consistency/motivation and Operant Conditioning....we'd always dismiss it, but lo and behold, it certainly manifests itself in parenting
-I sometimes feel the urge to get the fuck away, but it's really rare in all honesty....I think it's because I know I can if I want to....if I were shackled or couldn't afford it, I might feel differently
-my wife and I definitely miss getting away together without the kids....my family's on the east coast and hers are a few hours north of us, so logistically, things aren't all that smooth there with kid watching, but we're coming up with plans now that the kids are 9 & (almost) 6
-we dumped good money into new bikes and a bike rack for the Santa Fe....our thought is a lot of our family time will by cycling now that our youngest can manage a 20 miler pretty soon (he's done 15 on a shitty bike last year)
-Aside from some of my, er, substance challenges I have shared, I have always 'been there' for the kids without slurring, ect....I can honestly say that in a 365 day year, I read to or with, my kids for at least 350 and my wife probably does at least 351....that time you spend with your kids is everything to them and you won't regret it....ditto for walks in the near-by woods or playground time, unless someone was sick, we'd do something, every single day.....so important to them
-I have a laundry list of things I want to be better at for myself and my family but very little of it involves extended periods of time away from them

JMO, don't force your routine on yourself or your wife, let it unfold. She's going to be tired, back's going to hurt (and a bunch of other shit I don't want to get @ excited about) and she's going to change at least 80% of the shitty diapers after 9PM, so you'll be keeping all that in mind as you start paying more attention to the "Right Now I'm Drinking..." thread.

EDIT: in rereading my comments money comes up a helluva lot and that's because it matters a helluva lot to me. My kids are growing up in a much nicer climate than I did from that perspective and that's very important to me, but might not matter as much to others.

And there's no shortage of time spent with kids, probably more than is necessary in the days of helicopter parents.

This can become false easier than you imagine. In our case, it is an elderly parent in ill health that did it. Early bedtime for kids means if you have do any real task after work, you might go 24 hours without seeing your kid. That doesn't seem so bad, until it's 3 times a week, for the indefinite future.

Before I had kids, I saw changes I didn't really like in couples who became parents. Then I did it and the changes were perfectly natural and comfortable. It's a new world that you'll realize you are absolutely under prepared for yet you'll do fine.

Assuming you didn't go to a ghetto elementary school, your playground had a seesaw that had an adjustable pivot point. Want to play on the seesaw with your fat friend? You have to adjust the pivot point. Same goes for using the seesaw with your sickly friend that weighed 20 pounds less than everyone else. Playing on the seesaw requires balance and if that balance isn't immediately obvious you get to adjust the pivot point.

I think the same thing happens with any major life change such as a child being born.

Thanks for the insights here.

Bud wrote:It's important to strike a balance between your existence as a parent and your existence as an adult with your own set of needs and desires. Where one draws that line is highly individual, and outside of the truly marginal cases (e.g. abandoning your kids or having a nanny raise them on one end, or entirely subsuming your individuality to your kids on the other end) it's impossible to say where the right place to draw the line is. That's for you and your family to figure out.

I agree. There's a certain herd mentality with parenting, so folks here might have a different perspective than others. Like, when six kids was normal, you're not spending all that much time with all your kids, and mom quite a bit more than dad.

I've also seen some folks kinda kill themselves in the dual career/parenting business, perhaps overdoing or at a minimum not doing the self-care that would probably be recommended to be fully effective.

And how those lines hold up in the reality of actually having the kid and having priorities change means that there's only so much you can plan ahead for. Not unlike getting married maybe.

I had to look-up who Louis CK was before I responded.

Pretty practical guy, which is why the sentiment surprised me coming from him. Though the TV business has absolutely insane hours, so I'm under the impression his hours are long and, being divorced, his time with is kids is less that many others'.

He's hilarious though. Threading the needle on rape jokes:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU[/youtube]

Lie Nap wrote:JMO, don't force your routine on yourself or your wife, let it unfold. She's going to be tired, back's going to hurt (and a bunch of other shit I don't want to get @ excited about) and she's going to change at least 80% of the shitty diapers after 9PM, so you'll be keeping all that in mind as you start paying more attention to the "Right Now I'm Drinking..." thread.

Yeah, she'll be going back to work after six months as well, which is either work-from-home or road warrior stuff (not much choice in which you get), though that'll likely depend on whether she's one of those moms who just wants to do the baby stuff, or the kind who finds 24/7 baby too much and wants to get back to work. I've seen surprises in both directions so I'm not making predictions.

Mainly concerned currently with the first 8 weeks and figuring sleep out, and getting everything squared away possible in advance to deal with that.

Congratulations and best wishes Spells & Dunn !

Our boy turned two in March, and our daughter is 5 months old. My wife has stayed home with them every single day since he was born and I've worked full time.

I leave the house at 8am and don't get home until around 6.30pm if I'm lucky, which means in the morning I see them while I'm rushing around getting ready, and trying to do whatever I can to help my wife out for the day ahead, because I know she'll spend most of the day trying to entertain our toddler and stop him from smashing the house up, and trying to hold and feed our baby girl, who currently only sleeps on mummy and can hardly be put down or left on the rug while mum walks five steps away to make a drink.

When I get home, it is late and both kids are tired, cranky, he's not eating his dinner, she's too tired from not napping properly and is going crazy. Mum is fucking knackered and hasn't even had time for the bathroom all day...

The point is, five days a week, I see them an hour a day if I'm lucky, and it is at the worst times - most of it I spend holding our daughter to try and get her to sleep and give mum a break, and the same time all I seem to be doing is telling my son off for one thing after another, trying to convince him to eat something and let me change his nappy for bed and so on... and all he wants is for mum to do everything because I'm the jerk that turns up occasionally and shouts at him.

So when the weekend comes, ALL I want to do is be there with my kids, sit on the floor and play with them, take them for walks to the park, try and get them to have naps, give mum a break, get her out of the house too... and EVERYTHING else can quite frankly get fucked.

The garden can get overgrown, the cars are slowly dying, some cleaning and laundry gets done between us here and there, we go grocery shopping when we can, otherwise we eat stuff from the freezer or sandwiches.

I leave a couple of kettlebells in the basement car park at work and I train during my lunchbreaks. I used to train at home in the evenings and on weekends when we had just the one kid, but now with two it is almost impossible.

I dont really care, because all I want to do is be with my kids.

Both of them change and grow so much every day and I fucking hate every minute I'm not there to see it.

The last thing I want to do when I have a chance to be home, is to go out with a bunch of guys, and leave the kids at home with mum for yet even more time.

I know things will change, they do every day. Won't be long before both kids can come outside and play while I workout, they might even want to help or join in. One day they will probably WANT to go and stay at grandmas, and we can go out for drinks.

A few more years down the line, they'll be at school, then they'll be at their mates, and we'll hardly see them unless they're hungry or run out of money.

So again, at the moment, all I want to do is be home with my kids and my wife, and everything else - EVERYTHING - can get fucked.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

Lie Nap wrote:JMO, don't force your routine on yourself or your wife, let it unfold. She's going to be tired, back's going to hurt (and a bunch of other shit I don't want to get @ excited about) and she's going to change at least 80% of the shitty diapers after 9PM, so you'll be keeping all that in mind as you start paying more attention to the "Right Now I'm Drinking..." thread.

Yeah, she'll be going back to work after six months as well, which is either work-from-home or road warrior stuff (not much choice in which you get), though that'll likely depend on whether she's one of those moms who just wants to do the baby stuff, or the kind who finds 24/7 baby too much and wants to get back to work. I've seen surprises in both directions so I'm not making predictions.

Mainly concerned currently with the first 8 weeks and figuring sleep out, and getting everything squared away possible in advance to deal with that.

The work from home piece is huge for those who can get it and then do it well. I'm 100% remote, so in addition to my wife being home, I'm here, too. Even if that's not an option, as long as she's not going to do a ton of business travel the first two years it's likely not going to be all that hard for her. One of my friends is an IT exec for Target and when she had her second, she had to go to India for 4 weeks and they survived in spite of the fact that her husband's a spaz.

Don't even try to figure sleep out....odds are you're not going to get any, but you'll adapt....good times ahead!

Speaking as a dad who's firstborn will be leaving for college in a year. You can never spend too much time with your kids. No matter how much time you spend with them, and I spent a lot, you will always wish you had spent more.

You'll find your own time but now is not the time to worry about it.

Breaks my heart to think about my boy leaving but he can't stay in the nest forever and I damn sure haven't raised him to be dependent on me.

Super helpful from everybody, thanks again. I'm trying to get out of town so this is briefer than I'd like, but it's useful seeing folks who aren't O Magazine subscribers having a similar perspective to what I thought was maybe a bit extreme.

Being a dad is awesome, kid gets me out of doing all types of shit i dont want to do. I would rather stay at home all the time, I hate everyone and I have almost no friends.

Powerful Nesting Impulse Detected.

Spells, here's some nuts & bolts advice: when baby goes down for a nap, so does Mom. Let the housework slide a little.
At first, my wife used baby's nap time to keep the house spic n span. But it didn't go well for her because raising a little one is hard work.

johno wrote:Spells, here's some nuts & bolts advice: when baby goes down for a nap, so does Mom. Let the housework slide a little.
At first, my wife used baby's nap time to keep the house spic n span. But it didn't go well for her because raising a little one is hard work.

For sure, the upside of having several friends have kids in the last year is that gets hammered home.

johno wrote:Spells, here's some nuts & bolts advice: when baby goes down for a nap, so does Mom. Let the housework slide a little.
At first, my wife used baby's nap time to keep the house spic n span. But it didn't go well for her because raising a little one is hard work.

Total gold nugget right there for the new dad to remember.

If your old lady plans to breast feed and she is cool, you shouldn't have to get up at night for a few months until you start supplementing with formula. If she pumps and wants you to feed him at night, that's a bummer(and lame). If you're planning to use a daycare though, all the pumped milk will probably go there and she can still nurse at night while you sleep. Regardless, when he stops needing food in the middle of the night, you'll still be on bad dream/put back in the pacifier duty. That should be a few months down the line though.

Breastfeeding is great. It's good for the baby, too.
And if you're a total hippy, consider the Family Bed. Everyone sleeps better.

johno wrote:Breastfeeding is great. It's good for the baby, too.
And if you're a total hippy, consider the Family Bed. Everyone sleeps better.

My wife breastfed both....she also did the cosleeper and hippy sling thing vs. a carrier when out and about. Worked awesome for both kiddos. On that note, our kids were both delivered by nurse mid-wives (Ivy League degreed, so I'm not talking some crunchy bullshit) at a major hospital, so if things went bad, there was the more traditional medical approach available immediately. She also did private lessons for this specialized meditation (forget what it's called but can find out if you'd like). It was pretty amazing to see how she handled the birth of both kids and without a drop of meds. She credited the meditation training with the "easy" deliveries. JME.

Like liberal urbanite Louis CK....You're overthinking it. Kids are awesome.

Asking for and getting advice now is like asking what your first acid trip will be like. Impossible to describe. Worrying about it never helps. Setting imaginary lines doesn't help either.

Notions of strategy are wasted. Focus on logistics. The holy trinity of Boob, diaper, sleep.

Blaidd Drwg wrote: Focus on logistics. The holy trinity of Boob, diaper, sleep.

....and butt wipes.