Mass Shooting in El Paso

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Gene
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Gene » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:03 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:37 pm
It strikes me that a lot of the invective and attacks are being directed at US citizens. Citizens, by definition, are not guests. Telling brown congressmen born in the US to go back where they came from, when they're advocating basically Scandinavian polices, is pretty obviously racist, and has little to do with immigrants not assimilating.
Well, maybe not Scandinavian politics today..... a few generations later, yes. :)
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:45 pm

Bram wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:56 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:15 am

There were 57 shootings in Chicago this weekend, but they were all black, and no one cares so...where's the real racism?
You say no one cares. I read a few articles and fathers and mothers are heartbroken burying one or more of their children. I'm happy to talk on cultural things, because evidently it is a culture where you shoot other people your age over stuff.

But you're conflating issues. Gun violence over territorial bullshit is one thing, mass murder spurred by hatred is another.
When I say "no one cares" I mean there is no outpouring of media handwringing and gnashing of teeth. I'm sure their moms care. And those 57 shootings, they aren't a one time thing, it's day after day. Much worse than any single "mass shooting" event. And to ignore it, or say it's not the same, is representative of its own kind of racism. After all, how is getting shot to death over territorial bullshit is any different than getting shot over racial bullshit? But to be completely clear, almost none of the firearm violence in the USA has anything to do with white anything: not white people shooting, not white people getting shot, and not over white people stuff.


Bram wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:56 am
But you're conflating issues. Gun violence over territorial bullshit is one thing, mass murder spurred by hatred is another.

My question:

"As this board is filled with racist comments, when you hear about a mass shooting committed in the name of racism, how do you feel about it?"
You really think this board is filled with racist comments? Well for my part, I disagree, but I certainly don't want to hurt anybody and I will be more careful with my words in the future. I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I condone racial violence.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:50 pm

Bram wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:00 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:24 am
Here's a pretty interesting page. It shows the concentration of gun violence in about 25 or so urban areas, outside of which, the US enjoys levels of gun violence on par with countries like the Netherlands. Just two percent of American counties account for 51 percent of all firearm homicides. The primary difference is that we manage that with 300+ million firearms.

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/numbe ... -1-murder/
Well, that means a solution with narrow application (something that works in very few counties) could be very successful.

It's a good link, but I'm not talking gun violence in total, specifically saying hateful shit and what the outcomes are.
The reality is there is little to no correlation between what people say and what they do. People spout racist shit all the time and nothing happens. The shooter in Ohio was an Elizabeth Warren fan, but no sane person thinks that there's a correlation between his politics and the shooting. The media is desperately pumping the "muh white supremacy" thing right now, but it's all a bunch of bullshit.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:52 pm

All that said, I think it is laudable that you try to be a thoughtful and sensitive person. And without question, these shootings and other senseless violence is sad (and pointlessly stupid). I mean it when I say I will try to be more careful with my words, but understand that most of my nastiest posts are just dumb hyperbole for the sake of discussion and should not be taken seriously.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Bram » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:20 am

Turdacious wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Are the Freakonomics guys really different?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized ... ime_effect
That's a fair criticism, they are trying to argue their point over and over according to your link.

I brought up their podcast, because I think the left vs. right issue in this country does feel like a smokescreen that divides people up. Both sides have their fault, and the parties seem happy to keep pointing the finger at each other because it keeps the whole circus running.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Bram » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:33 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:45 pm

When I say "no one cares" I mean there is no outpouring of media handwringing and gnashing of teeth. I'm sure their moms care. And those 57 shootings, they aren't a one time thing, it's day after day. Much worse than any single "mass shooting" event. And to ignore it, or say it's not the same, is representative of its own kind of racism. After all, how is getting shot to death over territorial bullshit is any different than getting shot over racial bullshit? But to be completely clear, almost none of the firearm violence in the USA has anything to do with white anything: not white people shooting, not white people getting shot, and not over white people stuff.
Chicago and many poor black neighborhoods have a horrific issue with gun violence. I would again imagine that there is a solution and researching it could be a step. What poor black neighborhoods don't have issues for example? Or have lower rates? What is the difference? More after-school programs? More job opportunities? More police presence? A different kind of police presence? I'm all for studying problems and trying to come up with workable solutions.

It's nice to know that most of the country is safe (there was a murder and shooting a few weeks ago near where I live and it was the first I've heard of in over 5 years).
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:45 pm

You really think this board is filled with racist comments? Well for my part, I disagree, but I certainly don't want to hurt anybody and I will be more careful with my words in the future. I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I condone racial violence.

This is by far the most racist place I come across in my life, though my non-online life tends to be pretty sparse with hearing anything racially tinged.

I appreciate you considering it, thanks :)
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Turdacious » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:34 pm

Bram, you've been here for over a decade as have most of the regular posters. You know how this place is.
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You also know that as the mass shooting trend has risen, the rhetorical trend on IGx has gone in the opposite direction (remember the Shaffer chronicles and limreeks?).
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:05 pm

Bram wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:33 am
This is by far the most racist place I come across in my life, though my non-online life tends to be pretty sparse with hearing anything racially tinged.
FWIW, it follows a pretty predictable pattern after fringe RW media and people tag along on the hate.

Late 90's - Black Helicopters/Jack Booted Thugs (white Democrat in office)
2000 The Chinese
2001 Holy shit Arabs and we never talked about the Chinese or black helicopters again.
2008 suddenly black people for some strange reason
2016 General white supremacy.

It's depressing but also super-predictable, and I'm certain I have my own blind spots I don't think much about.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:26 pm

LOL @ white supremacy dude there's no such thing.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:26 pm
LOL @ white supremacy dude there's no such thing.
Some administration dude was just on TV saying that the poem on the Statue of Liberty was meant for Europeans.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:46 pm

Russia, actually. Emma Lazarus was a Russian Jew writing for Jews fleeing Czarist Russia. Is that your definition of "white supremacy"? LOL.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:03 pm

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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:09 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:46 pm
Russia, actually. Emma Lazarus was a Russian Jew writing for Jews fleeing Czarist Russia. Is that your definition of "white supremacy"? LOL.
Her family fled Brazil. Also, he could have made your ridiculous argument and made a very different one instead.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:27 pm

What is my ridiculous argument? Where on earth is there "white supremacy"? It's just a stupid media meme. And what her family did and who she was writing for are two different things:

"The "huddled masses" refers to the large numbers of immigrants arriving in the United States in the 1880s.[14] Lazarus was an activist and advocate for Jewish refugees fleeing persecution in Czarist Russia."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by johno » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:52 pm
...most of my nastiest posts are just dumb hyperbole for the sake of discussion and should not be taken seriously.
I thought that was understood from the inception of IGx.

And here I could have enjoyed years of feeling superior by taking it all seriously.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:46 pm

johno wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:38 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:52 pm
...most of my nastiest posts are just dumb hyperbole for the sake of discussion and should not be taken seriously.
I thought that was understood from the inception of IGx.

And here I could have enjoyed years of feeling superior by taking it all seriously.
I'm sorry but Spells is our resident winebar white guilt warrior. He's taking yer jerrrb.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Turdacious » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:20 pm

I guess we really need that trigger warning on the intro page again. Or being on -s- as moderator. :rolleyes:
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by johno » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:04 pm

If you've hung around a "racist" website for a decade, what does that say about you as a person?
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Schlegel » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:26 pm
LOL @ white supremacy dude there's no such thing.
Some administration dude was just on TV saying that the poem on the Statue of Liberty was meant for Europeans.
Cucchinelli is an asshat and I am proud to have voted against him every chance I got. BUT... he literally was only stating the truth, that when the poem was written it was understood to be about the European lower class immigrants and was referring to persecution and social status, not to being unable to support yourself in your new country. This was in the context of discussion of excluding immigrants who can't support themselves and the historical precedent for it. No problem for me if you disagree with using that as a screen, but that was the discussion. He did not say the sentiment should only apply to Europeans.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Turdacious » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:31 pm

I for one am glad to learn the America of the 1880's was not a racist place.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:33 pm

Schlegel wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:26 pm
LOL @ white supremacy dude there's no such thing.
Some administration dude was just on TV saying that the poem on the Statue of Liberty was meant for Europeans.
Cucchinelli is an asshat and I am proud to have voted against him every chance I got. BUT... he literally was only stating the truth, that when the poem was written it was understood to be about the European lower class immigrants and was referring to persecution and social status, not to being unable to support yourself in your new country. This was in the context of discussion of excluding immigrants who can't support themselves and the historical precedent for it. No problem for me if you disagree with using that as a screen, but that was the discussion. He did not say the sentiment should only apply to Europeans.
Spells knows that, which is why he isn't here bloviating.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Schlegel » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:17 am

My own father had to prove he had a job waiting for him to get his green card 50 years ago, and he actually is a European immigrant.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:46 am

I just lost my hot, Norwegian, master's degree-holding assistant planner because we could not get her H1B approved, here, in the Aryan Nations. The idea that reforming immigration policy to prefer capable people, instead of every Tom, Dick, or Pancho's brother's sister's cousin, is inane. Lefties just wanna diddle themselves in the corner over "muh racism" no matter what.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by nafod » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:55 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:46 am
...prefer capable people...
My relatives ended up in the coal mines. They had strong backs and a willingness to work. Similarly, we need workers with a willingness to gut chickens and hogs for chump change, or make tortillas 10 hours per day. Along with stealing the best and brightest of our foreign neighbors.
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Re: Mass Shooting in El Paso

Post by Schlegel » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:34 am

nafod wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:55 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:46 am
...prefer capable people...
My relatives ended up in the coal mines. They had strong backs and a willingness to work. Similarly, we need workers with a willingness to gut chickens and hogs for chump change, or make tortillas 10 hours per day. Along with stealing the best and brightest of our foreign neighbors.
If that's what we need to do to get jobs filled, ok. If we need to increase legal immigration we could do it and just authorize more legal immigration. It's a valid argument.
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