Officer Friendly.

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tonkadtx
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by tonkadtx » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:19 am

Read back a page or two (before you took the red pill)-- I'm not in favor of civil forfeiture laws. I do recognize the needs of impoverished communities for revenue, and know what it's like when a community descends into Bartertown.
"Without the ill gotten gains, who will build MUH ROADZZZ???"

I could write multiple theses in Political Science and Economics on just the BS in this one statement.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:38 am

Now that our Dear Little Friend is done shitting the bed.....recap for those of you who block Turd, we gotta be careful about keeping the Po PO from committing fraud and extracting revenue through dubious means...because poor communities really need that paper.....

Let's get back to the business of describing the conditions under which this country began to understand...Officer Friendly might not be always be looking out for you.

https://www.propublica.org/article/comm ... -positives

Drug Kits are bad...mmmkay?
The field tests seem simple, but a lot can go wrong. Some tests, including the one the Houston police officers used to analyze the crumb on the floor of Albritton’s car, use a single tube of a chemical called cobalt thiocyanate, which turns blue when it is exposed to cocaine. But cobalt thiocyanate also turns blue when it is exposed to more than 80 other compounds, including methadone, certain acne medications and several common household cleaners.
In a 1974 study, however, the National Bureau of Standards warned that the kits “should not be used as sole evidence for the identification of a narcotic or drug of abuse.” Police officers were not chemists, and chemists themselves had long ago stopped relying on color tests, preferring more reliable mass spectrographs. By 1978, the Department of Justice had determined that field tests “should not be used for evidential purposes,” and the field tests in use today remain inadmissible at trial in nearly every jurisdiction; instead, prosecutors must present a secondary lab test using more reliable methods.

But this has proved to be a meaningless prohibition. Most drug cases in the United States are decided well before they reach trial, by the far more informal process of plea bargaining. In 2011, RTI International, a nonprofit research group based in North Carolina, found that prosecutors in nine of 10 jurisdictions it surveyed nationwide accepted guilty pleas based solely on the results of field tests, and in our own reporting, we confirmed that prosecutors or judges accept plea deals on that same basis in Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Jacksonville, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Newark, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, San Diego, Seattle and Tampa.
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Turdacious » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:02 am

Image
For decades, Philadelphia's property tax system has been criticized as outdated and unfair. In many cases, assessments have had little relation to actual property values—or to assessments of similar structures across the street [...] One reason Philadelphians have been relatively complacent about longstanding inequities in assessments, analysts say, is that they pay less in property taxes (and more in wage taxes) than residents of many other jurisdictions. On a per capita basis, Philadelphia's property tax produces only about one quarter the amount generated in Washington and a third of what is collected in Boston and Hartford. These numbers include taxes that help pay for city government and those that fund the school system.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-an ... iladelphia
The ACLU of Pennsylvania claims 32 percent of cash forfeitures are not supported by a conviction [...] The ACLU found that only 34 percent of property owners received proper notice of their forfeiture cases, including five percent of cases where the DA's Office did not have proof of issuing any notice.
http://www.phillyvoice.com/aclu-philly- ... residents/
Although Philadelphia’s population is smaller than Brooklyn, New York and Los Angeles County, it brings in twice as much civil forfeiture revenue as these two combined [...] On average, Philadelphia’s forfeiture machine revenue equals almost 20 percent of the Philadelphia DA’s general budget. Philadelphia spends nearly 40 percent of its forfeiture revenue on salaries, including the salaries of the very officials doing the seizing and forfeiting.
http://ij.org/philadelphia-facts-and-figures/
Citywide the murder and violence rate is running significantly ahead of last year's. 692 people have been shot so far this year - 161 murdered. In 2014 at this point there were 621 wounded by gunfire - 149 shot dead.
http://6abc.com/news/philadelphia-viole ... se/927865/

I bring Philly up because it's the most egregious abuser of civil forfeiture laws that I know of. But how would Philly raise the revenue it needs without civil forfeiture (i.e. a de facto tax on poor black residents-- the least economically mobile residents)? Raise property taxes and more taxpayers move to the suburbs, and the soda tax will only do so much. If Philly falls apart, the only local beneficiary would be Camden. Other than decreasing unfunded state and federal mandates, I don't know the answer.
Last edited by Turdacious on Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Turdacious » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:09 am

tonkadtx wrote:
Read back a page or two (before you took the red pill)-- I'm not in favor of civil forfeiture laws. I do recognize the needs of impoverished communities for revenue, and know what it's like when a community descends into Bartertown.
"Without the ill gotten gains, who will build MUH ROADZZZ???"

I could write multiple theses in Political Science and Economics on just the BS in this one statement.
Calm down Nurse Balbricker.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:26 am

Turdacious wrote:I bring Philly up because it's the most egregious abuser of civil forfeiture laws that I know of. But how would Philly raise the revenue it needs without civil forfeiture (i.e. a de facto tax on poor black residents-- the least economically mobile residents)? Raise property taxes and more taxpayers move to the suburbs, and the soda tax will only do so much. If Philly falls apart, the only local beneficiary would be Camden. Other than decreasing unfunded state and federal mandates, I don't know the answer.
You've not even attempted to describe the relationship between where the money comes from and where it goes..

You've shown no linkage between asset forfeiture and property tax revenue, no comparison of dollars, no illustrative background on the constraints of what each can be spent on. You're attempting to draw a conclusion (if we reduce revenue from graft and fraud under the Asset Forfeiture laws...the City will be strapped because it's property taxes are too low) that has no basis in the data your citing.

HINT: it doesn't pay for STEM classes, it's not free and clear general fund money. In Penn for instance....
(f) Use of cash or proceeds of property.--Cash or proceeds of forfeited property transferred to the custody of the district attorney pursuant to subsection (e) shall be placed in the operating fund of the county in which the district attorney is elected. The appropriate county authority shall immediately release from the operating fund, without restriction, a like amount for the use of the district attorney enforcing the provisions of The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act. The entity having budgetary control shall not anticipate future forfeitures or proceeds therefrom in adoption and approval of the budget for the district attorney.
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/leg ... &subsctn=0

Get It? The money goes into General Fun and RIGHT BACK TO THE DA...
Under state civil forfeiture laws, all the revenue generated from forfeiture goes directly to law enforcement and can even be distributed to police and prosecutors as bonuses. As a result, the agencies making enforcement decisions have a strong financial incentive to pursue as many forfeitures as possible. In Philadelphia, the district attorney’s share of forfeiture proceeds is roughly $2.2 million — or 7.3% of its appropriated budget.
In Philly, 7.3% of the DA's office is AF money. Your 20% number is not sourced well but nonetheless....it doesn't go into General Fund. without Context of how the money can be spent, your assertion is meaningless.

https://www.aclupa.org/files/3214/3326/ ... _FINAL.pdf

In CT, the law is similar...the money goes to the Po Po....

http://www.wfsb.com/story/22078253/what ... drug-busts

Let's return to Philly...just so we understand that you're defending a disgusting practice on the grounds of its critical importance to City budget. It's not...it's Money for the DA to use in enforcing Drug laws. So what are we talking in total dollars for the people who's lives are destroyed. What do we get for our forfeiture money in Philly?
The raw numbers of forfeiture enforcement in Philadelphia are staggering. Based on data from 2011 to 2013, roughly 6,000 forfeiture cases are filed on an annual basis, including nearly 300 against houses and other real estate. This enforcement activity results in the forfeiture of some 100 homes, 150 vehicles, and roughly $4 million in cash each year, for a total of around $5 million in annual income.
9 Million.....total......

What's the Total Budget for the City?

8,102,545,000


Right around one tenth of a percent.

Sure seems to me that the 9 million, much of it in AF amounts of 100 bucks means more to the local economy and its residents that it does to the budget of the City.


http://www.phila.gov/openbudget/
http://www.phila.gov/finance/pdfs/Book%20I15.pdf


Jog On with this Philly needs that paper bullshit.
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Turdacious » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:59 am

Nice try-- that's 9m in money that doesn't have to be allocated from the general fund; and this is a trend that is repeated nationwide.
http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... -and-texas
Is it abused? Absolutely.

Now to get into the details-- the Health Choices Behavioral Health Fund ($1.3b) is overwhelmingly state and federal money; grants ($1.5b) is probably not local money. You've got a decent argument, no need to play fast and loose with the facts.
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:15 am

Turdacious wrote:Nice try-- that's 9m in money that doesn't have to be allocated from the general fund; and this is a trend that is repeated nationwide.
http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... -and-texas
Is it abused? Absolutely.

Now to get into the details-- the Health Choices Behavioral Health Fund ($1.3b) is overwhelmingly state and federal money; grants ($1.5b) is probably not local money. You've got a decent argument, no need to play fast and loose with the facts.
Jesus, I am not sure how much easier I can make it for you. 1/10 of 1% IN YOUR BEST EXAMPLE.

You have an argument based on a total lack of understanding of budget making, proportionality or context.

1/10th of 1%. Go ahead and review the budget swings year to year in the average large City over the course of a 5 year period.

Your starting proposition admits it's abused (there's a staggering amount of evidence it is)

The amount of dollars is a pittance when taken in the context of your best example.

At its core, it's a law crafted for targeting drug cartels and you're arguing that, they "need the money," is sufficient reason to let the DA and Cops to apply AF tools to regular folk without fair and due process. You couldn't find a better example of Foxs watching a hen-house.

Even for those jurisdictions who have violated their fiduciary duty and are operating beyond their means on money that can disappear at any moment (what happens to AF money once you win the drug war? I thought we were ridding out towns of meth and weed?.....where will the money come form then).

You've made no case that the needs of the jurisdiction outweigh the need for due process.

Simply Adorable and quite terrifyingly unprincipled.
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Turdacious » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:38 am

In the WaPo no less
They’d come to the same church on the same night to confront the same dilemma facing this city’s beleaguered police department. But what they wanted from the police couldn’t have been more different. Eight days had passed since the Justice Department issued a scathing review of the Baltimore Police Department, detailing years of racial discrimination in its law enforcement practices. Yet the 40 or so longtime residents who gathered in a West Baltimore church basement on this August night — many of whom were older black women afraid to walk to the store or leave their homes at night — had come to urge police to clear their corners of miscreants and restore order to their crime-plagued community [...]

The city recorded 344 homicides last year, the highest per capita in history.This year, Western leads the other districts with 35 homicides. Peter Moskos, who served as a Baltimore officer from 1999 to 2001 for his Harvard University thesis and a book called “Cops in the Hood,” said the Justice Department “forgot that people live in the Western District, and they deserve peace and quiet as much as anyone in the city.” A professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, Moskos said that most people want loitering laws and other quality-of-life violations enforced. But the widely embraced “broken windows” approach to law enforcement, which emphasized enforcing littering and graffiti ordinances to prevent further lawlessness, has fallen out of favor with many experts [...]

The disconnect was profound. Those who felt abused by the police didn’t hear their neighbors expressing fear about crime. And those fearful of crime didn’t hear the voices of people who have been harassed by the police.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... story.html
Discuss.
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tonkadtx
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by tonkadtx » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:18 pm

They’d come to the same church on the same night to confront the same dilemma facing this city’s beleaguered police department. But what they wanted from the police couldn’t have been more different. Eight days had passed since the Justice Department issued a scathing review of the Baltimore Police Department, detailing years of racial discrimination in its law enforcement practices. [..]
This is a very interesting topic, and I don't know if there is a simple solution. As a libertarian, I usually fall on the anti-police side. Let me lay out some of the reasons why:

- Personal experience: I'm Irish and I grew up in Queens NY. I've been surrounded by cops my whole life as family, extended family, neighbors, peers, and friends. Growing up I saw new numerous cops who were alcoholics, one who beat his wife, and one who beat his wife and kids. I used to listen to the old timers joke about beating people with phone books so you didn't leave any marks, lying and tricking people who probably weren't guilty into confessing, and flaking people off with bad evidence when the were angry or didn't like the person. They all routinely carried drop weapons, which they made no secret of. I had to clean out the apartment of a detective after he passed away and found a box full of 007 knives (which I'm sure he took from Skells) a couple of Frankenstein handguns, etc. When I was 12, my friends and I went out throwing eggs on Halloween - the cops chased us. They were so incensed we made them run, when they caught us they beat us with their nightsticks and then dropped us off in the projects thinking the project kids would beat the shit out of us on Halloween (maybe worse). Luckily we knew all the project kids from football and little league. I have also seen drunk cops start bar fights numerous times, lose, and then try to claim an officer was assaulted or pull their gun or both in bars in Woodside or Queens Blvd when I was in my Doorman phase.

-The ubiquity of video: it seems like everyday there are a thousand videos of cops behaving badly. I worry less about the shootings because each shooting is an individual set of circumstances, then I worry about the videos that show a pervasive police state attitude. Tasing little kids and pregnant women. Kicking a seated teenage girl in handcuffs in the face. Any situation where a person asserts their constitutional rights and refuses a search or an interview is immediately escalated to a confrontation. Shooting dogs. Off duty cops believing they can do whatever they want (and lecturing or bullying people while they do it).

The flip side of this coin is:
- I grew up in NY when there where almost 3,000 murders a year. Everyone I know carried a weapon in case you got jumped on the subway on your way to high school (we were targets because we were wearing Catholic School uniforms). Everyone I know, including me, got jumped at least once by a group of "urban" youths. We used to fight with the kids from Queensbridge constantly to keep them from robbing our little brothers, mothers, etc. Giuliani was a dick, but he absolutely cleaned up the city with broken windows policing. People live in parts of the city now they would not have set foot in circa 1991. I walk back and forth to school in a part of Harlem that was a free fire zone.

I really don't know what the answer is. Decent folks have a right to live in their neighborhood without being prey to thugs. Police can't go around abusing people and violating their rights all day. I have a feeling that ending the drug war, and putting less non-violent offenders behind bars would alleviate some of these issues (less contact with police?). Focus on property and violent crime. But that is never going to happen because the drug war and the prison industrial complex it supports are too lucrative.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:02 pm

tonkadtx wrote:
They’d come to the same church on the same night to confront the same dilemma facing this city’s beleaguered police department. But what they wanted from the police couldn’t have been more different. Eight days had passed since the Justice Department issued a scathing review of the Baltimore Police Department, detailing years of racial discrimination in its law enforcement practices. [..]
This is a very interesting topic, and I don't know if there is a simple solution. As a libertarian, I usually fall on the anti-police side. Let me lay out some of the reasons why:

- Personal experience: I'm Irish and I grew up in Queens NY. I've been surrounded by cops my whole life as family, extended family, neighbors, peers, and friends. Growing up I saw new numerous cops who were alcoholics, one who beat his wife, and one who beat his wife and kids. I used to listen to the old timers joke about beating people with phone books so you didn't leave any marks, lying and tricking people who probably weren't guilty into confessing, and flaking people off with bad evidence when the were angry or didn't like the person. They all routinely carried drop weapons, which they made no secret of. I had to clean out the apartment of a detective after he passed away and found a box full of 007 knives (which I'm sure he took from Skells) a couple of Frankenstein handguns, etc. When I was 12, my friends and I went out throwing eggs on Halloween - the cops chased us. They were so incensed we made them run, when they caught us they beat us with their nightsticks and then dropped us off in the projects thinking the project kids would beat the shit out of us on Halloween (maybe worse). Luckily we knew all the project kids from football and little league. I have also seen drunk cops start bar fights numerous times, lose, and then try to claim an officer was assaulted or pull their gun or both in bars in Woodside or Queens Blvd when I was in my Doorman phase.

-The ubiquity of video: it seems like everyday there are a thousand videos of cops behaving badly. I worry less about the shootings because each shooting is an individual set of circumstances, then I worry about the videos that show a pervasive police state attitude. Tasing little kids and pregnant women. Kicking a seated teenage girl in handcuffs in the face. Any situation where a person asserts their constitutional rights and refuses a search or an interview is immediately escalated to a confrontation. Shooting dogs. Off duty cops believing they can do whatever they want (and lecturing or bullying people while they do it).

The flip side of this coin is:
- I grew up in NY when there where almost 3,000 murders a year. Everyone I know carried a weapon in case you got jumped on the subway on your way to high school (we were targets because we were wearing Catholic School uniforms). Everyone I know, including me, got jumped at least once by a group of "urban" youths. We used to fight with the kids from Queensbridge constantly to keep them from robbing our little brothers, mothers, etc. Giuliani was a dick, but he absolutely cleaned up the city with broken windows policing. People live in parts of the city now they would not have set foot in circa 1991. I walk back and forth to school in a part of Harlem that was a free fire zone.

I really don't know what the answer is. Decent folks have a right to live in their neighborhood without being prey to thugs. Police can't go around abusing people and violating their rights all day. I have a feeling that ending the drug war, and putting less non-violent offenders behind bars would alleviate some of these issues (less contact with police?). Focus on property and violent crime. But that is never going to happen because the drug war and the prison industrial complex it supports are too lucrative.
Wow.

I grew-up in Jackson Heights and know Woodside bars very well.

I was also a cop in the 2-3, during the end of Dinkins/start of Rudy when the city was a shithole. I worked midnight to 8's for 3 years. I have personally seen 14 homicide victims. I know the 2-3 vicinity is waaaaay better now, but then it was a hellhole.

With all due respect to your family and friends who told those stories, I shout bullshit. While there were absolute horrid tales (such as nightsticks up the ass and the 'dirty 30'), I saw nothing of the kind. Nothing. And, even if it did happen, who would be stupid enough to tell those stories? No bragging, but I was hand picked for the late tour since there were so few and the jobs were the heaviest, and I was capable and had a level head. I worked with great cops, and we were pretty much smooth as silk in dealing with mopes/skells. On the bad guy's side, it was never in a mope's best interest to get stupid with us and vice versa. Although various degrees of use of force did happen, none of us wanted to do anything that would get us 'jammed up', trust me on this, it was so easy to get into trouble just by way of bullshit allegations....I lived it.

My stories are old and tired, I know. I also realize there is a clear concern about certain cop's conduct, but I do believe it is minuscule relative to the jobs answered or 'pick ups'.

I am a 'Classical Liberal', so I too, am no fan of a shit ton of bullshit laws, but no cop goes to work looking for trouble....that is a farse.

On a slight tangent, the disgrace is most 'ghetto people' are good people who just want to live a good life; white liberals spin it so 'bad people' of color do crime because they are poor....absolute horseshit and they have no genuine point of reference.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by TerryB » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:44 am

Turdacious wrote:In the WaPo no less
They’d come to the same church on the same night to confront the same dilemma facing this city’s beleaguered police department. But what they wanted from the police couldn’t have been more different. Eight days had passed since the Justice Department issued a scathing review of the Baltimore Police Department, detailing years of racial discrimination in its law enforcement practices. Yet the 40 or so longtime residents who gathered in a West Baltimore church basement on this August night — many of whom were older black women afraid to walk to the store or leave their homes at night — had come to urge police to clear their corners of miscreants and restore order to their crime-plagued community [...]

The city recorded 344 homicides last year, the highest per capita in history.This year, Western leads the other districts with 35 homicides. Peter Moskos, who served as a Baltimore officer from 1999 to 2001 for his Harvard University thesis and a book called “Cops in the Hood,” said the Justice Department “forgot that people live in the Western District, and they deserve peace and quiet as much as anyone in the city.” A professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, Moskos said that most people want loitering laws and other quality-of-life violations enforced. But the widely embraced “broken windows” approach to law enforcement, which emphasized enforcing littering and graffiti ordinances to prevent further lawlessness, has fallen out of favor with many experts [...]

The disconnect was profound. Those who felt abused by the police didn’t hear their neighbors expressing fear about crime. And those fearful of crime didn’t hear the voices of people who have been harassed by the police.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... story.html
Discuss.
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tonkadtx
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by tonkadtx » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:26 pm

Wow.

I grew-up in Jackson Heights and know Woodside bars very well.

I was also a cop in the 2-3, during the end of Dinkins/start of Rudy when the city was a shithole. I worked midnight to 8's for 3 years. I have personally seen 14 homicide victims. I know the 2-3 vicinity is waaaaay better now, but then it was a hellhole.

With all due respect to your family and friends who told those stories, I shout bullshit. While there were absolute horrid tales (such as nightsticks up the ass and the 'dirty 30'), I saw nothing of the kind. Nothing. And, even if it did happen, who would be stupid enough to tell those stories? No bragging, but I was hand picked for the late tour since there were so few and the jobs were the heaviest, and I was capable and had a level head. I worked with great cops, and we were pretty much smooth as silk in dealing with mopes/skells. On the bad guy's side, it was never in a mope's best interest to get stupid with us and vice versa. Although various degrees of use of force did happen, none of us wanted to do anything that would get us 'jammed up', trust me on this, it was so easy to get into trouble just by way of bullshit allegations....I lived it.

My stories are old and tired, I know. I also realize there is a clear concern about certain cop's conduct, but I do believe it is minuscule relative to the jobs answered or 'pick ups'.

I am a 'Classical Liberal', so I too, am no fan of a shit ton of bullshit laws, but no cop goes to work looking for trouble....that is a farse.

On a slight tangent, the disgrace is most 'ghetto people' are good people who just want to live a good life; white liberals spin it so 'bad people' of color do crime because they are poor....absolute horseshit and they have no genuine point of reference.
The funny thing about what you wrote, is that at one point I would have generally tended to agree with most of what you wrote. I was a personal witness to everything in my account except for the bullshit the old timers were slinging. These guys were on much earlier than you, think late 60's and 70's. I don't know if that causes you to revise your opinion.

I think your last two lines are basically correct, but here is an further issue I have. The nature of police work attracts A LOT of bullies and people with authority issues, and those people who just treat it as a job are forced to maintain the status quo or the thin blue line. I think, and you would know better than I would, that the nature of NYC causes a more politicized department that is quicker to cut someone loose if they do something to get "jammed up" or make the department look bad. This is somewhat self protective. But the flip-side is, the cop that choked Garner (no judgements on that individual action) has been sued, I believe three times, prior to that incident.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:19 pm

tonkadtx wrote:- Personal experience: I'm Irish and I grew up in Queens NY. I've been surrounded by cops my whole life as family, extended family, neighbors, peers, and friends. Growing up I saw new numerous cops who were alcoholics, one who beat his wife, and one who beat his wife and kids. I used to listen to the old timers joke about beating people with phone books so you didn't leave any marks, lying and tricking people who probably weren't guilty into confessing, and flaking people off with bad evidence when the were angry or didn't like the person. They all routinely carried drop weapons, which they made no secret of. I had to clean out the apartment of a detective after he passed away and found a box full of 007 knives (which I'm sure he took from Skells) a couple of Frankenstein handguns, etc.
I don't know if it's bullshit, part of the collective unconscious, dead correct or faulty memory but by grandfather and great uncle were cops in the 50's and 60's when Seattle was just a sleepy little stain of a Port town. They told identical stories...my grandfather most vocally who impressed upon me very early to never turn your back on a cop and never answer questions.
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:50 am

Tonka: from what I/we saw on that video with Garner, I did not like what I saw either. Nor did that fat, white cop on the video who tried to cool it down (based on my recollection). And yes, the city settled several times on that cop who to Garner down. Inked-up wannabe MMA stars attract bullies, too, and I suppose if they become cops on top of that, there is a superset going on, per se (I have nothing against cops or ink or MMA, trust me, I'm just sayin').

Finnegan's, Dillon's, Donovan's for me on the Woodside bars. Mostly Donovan's though I grew up with one of the (many) Dillon boys and he and I are still in touch by way of Facebook. Which haunts were yours in Woodside? Ever hit Readypenny, Budd's or Runway69 in Jackson Hts?

BD,

As you well know The Common Law Right of Inquiry gives cops the right to ask for your name, address and explanation of conduct, in a public place. You, and anyone else, has every right to say fuck you and walk away. I think, in the moment, the line between CLRI and Reasonable suspicion is when things get hairy. Your grandfather could have meant that never turn your back means don't do your part in causing potential escalation, and just be cool vs. don't turn your back or you will get a blackjack across your neck. Turning your back on a cop most definitely creates the thought of a threat from the cop's perspective as he is engaging you verbally and cannot necessarily see your hands. Most mopes are smart about this, BTW. As you stated, memories can be flawed and all....

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by powerlifter54 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:02 pm

i always laugh when i hear some SJW say Black men grow up exclusively knowing and having to tell their sons to be very careful around cops. But everybody else doesn't have too.

As a lower middle class white kid growing up in the burbs, my dad taught me and my brothers and sisters early on to be respectful but cautious and vague with the police. He channeled Chris Rock when he said don't break the law. i learned quickly if you do don't have any witnesses. Don't elevate the level of confrontation, and admit nothing. Years in the Military and dealing with Cops in Cities all over the US and all over the world those rules stand up. Over the years i grew my game to never answer questions, never consent to a search, and never get out of the car or open the window fully unless they say you are under arrest. Have taught my kids that, and early on.

This ain't that hard. If you have a car full of weed and guns, don't run stop signs while hitting on a blunt. Then don't lead the cops on a high speed chase and then jump from the car and run, get tackled, and go for the cops gun.

Put the shit in the trunk, observe state and local traffic rules, and go to a friends house and have fun. If you get pulled over smile and provide your license once they tell you about being detained. Talk clearly and in a relaxed manner. Don't get out of car, don't consent to a search. Turn on your camera. If cop is smart and or a pro he has his on. Then go to your friend's house and have fun.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:50 pm

The most disgusting thing that SJW/white liberals do is push that blacks have a bigger problem with cops because they are black. It is an insult to blacks, moreso to cops, if you ask me.

I agree with much of what PL54 says except the get out of the car, piece. You get pulled over, you kill your ignition, put the keys on the dash, roll down your windows, put both hands on the wheel and follow instructions--sure, turn on your phone if you want to. If there are others in your car, tell all of them to make there hands viewable and to sit still. If you need to produce ID/insurance, let the cop know exactly what you're doing and don't assume anything. We/I got people out of cars all the time and it's always smooth if everyone is civil. Like Swayze said in Roadhouse, 'be nice, until it's time to not be nice'.

Another story you guys are digging-up in my brain: there was a time where NYC taxi driver was America's most dangerous job. So, they installed amber lights on bumpers the driver can discreetly activate if he felt at risk. We pulled over a lit amber light cab and a well dressed brotha was in the back. He was cool and polite, so we let it go (we thought the driver was just scared being in Harlem at 0200). That cab driver was robbed at gunpoint a few minutes later, about a mile north, by the same guy. Sickening to me, to this day, that we did not pull him out of the car and toss him, but we did not have 'reasonable suspicion' based on the way the driver was talking.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:07 pm

My old man said "Smarting off to a cop is a good way to fuck yourself". A lesson I took to heart, but my brother never did, ergo, whereas we've both been arrested, only he's actually been charged with something. I always felt that once I was under scrutiny, you treat a cop like a big, mean dog that has sat down next to you. Move slowly, speak clearly, project good vibe


Don't answer anything but the most basic questions if in custody. Never incriminate yourself. Be polite. Be respectful. What the BOG said about behavior when pulled over...twice I've had a cop thank me for understanding their job when I followed that procedure, and both times I received no citation, although once I was speeding, and another time I was intoxicated but under legal level.

What I find distressing is that there are many blacks who believe that SJW/White Liberal narrative about themselves.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:20 pm

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
BD,

As you well know The Common Law Right of Inquiry gives cops the right to ask for your name, address and explanation of conduct, in a public place. You, and anyone else, has every right to say fuck you and walk away. I think, in the moment, the line between CLRI and Reasonable suspicion is when things get hairy. Your grandfather could have meant that never turn your back means don't do your part in causing potential escalation, and just be cool vs. don't turn your back or you will get a blackjack across your neck. Turning your back on a cop most definitely creates the thought of a threat from the cop's perspective as he is engaging you verbally and cannot necessarily see your hands. Most mopes are smart about this, BTW. As you stated, memories can be flawed and all....

He was very clear on what he meant. Never Ever Ever Ever Trust the Police...just as as you would never ever ever trust any random stranger with a gun regardless of his authority.

I am baffled by anyone's implicit and or automatic assumption of good will and or authorities...the same people who can't manage to navigate the UN Conspiracy that is the DMV, will slip up their skirt quicker than a prom queen when dealing with Local PD. I don't interact with dangerous people that are unknown to me. If you know the officer, that could be a mitigating factor for you to use individual judgement. I know the beat cops near the gym by name and the ones in my neighborhood by sight...so the ROE could be changed...BUT trust and faith in individuals is earned, trust and faith in groups of people is pathologically stupid. Hence, I treat all police interactions in this country in the same fashion as you would traveling south of the border. I've had many, I've never had a problem...be smarter than the cattle you're herding.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:34 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
BD,

As you well know The Common Law Right of Inquiry gives cops the right to ask for your name, address and explanation of conduct, in a public place. You, and anyone else, has every right to say fuck you and walk away. I think, in the moment, the line between CLRI and Reasonable suspicion is when things get hairy. Your grandfather could have meant that never turn your back means don't do your part in causing potential escalation, and just be cool vs. don't turn your back or you will get a blackjack across your neck. Turning your back on a cop most definitely creates the thought of a threat from the cop's perspective as he is engaging you verbally and cannot necessarily see your hands. Most mopes are smart about this, BTW. As you stated, memories can be flawed and all....

He was very clear on what he meant. Never Ever Ever Ever Trust the Police...just as as you would never ever ever trust any random stranger with a gun regardless of his authority.

I am baffled by anyone's implicit and or automatic assumption of good will and or authorities...the same people who can't manage to navigate the UN Conspiracy that is the DMV, will slip up their skirt quicker than a prom queen when dealing with Local PD. I don't interact with dangerous people that are unknown to me. If you know the officer, that could be a mitigating factor for you to use individual judgement. I know the beat cops near the gym by name and the ones in my neighborhood by sight...so the ROE could be changed...BUT trust and faith in individuals is earned, trust and faith in groups of people is pathologically stupid. Hence, I treat all police interactions in this country in the same fashion as you would traveling south of the border. I've had many, I've never had a problem...be smarter than the cattle you're herding.
Two summers ago, I had cops banging on my door and ringing my bell in the middle of the night. Apparently, someone ditched on a Uber fare and used our address. Before I opened the door, I got all my visible, non-lethal 'stuff' out of sight and out of any 'lungeble area'. Most definitely be smarter than the cattle you're herding, but that works on both sides of the shield (badge). Everyone is safer that way.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:51 pm

You need my doormat.....

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"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:10 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:You need my doormat.....

Image
LOL...wasn't necessary. Could be due to the fact that it was a cute female deputy and for some insane reason, women love me. Funny side note: she asked me if I had a son and if he perhaps just got home. I was like "yeah, I have a son, but he's 5, so I don't think he ordered a cab...." That literally cracked her up.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:54 am

Let's not lose track of the ball...

It's not about serving justice it's about insuring compliance.

http://abc11.com/news/fbi-investigating ... s/1320138/
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by johno » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:19 pm

We've got 40 pages largely devoted to the flaws & misdeeds of cops. Although I'm pretty sympathetic (for IGx) to cops, them having had my back several times in my career, I share BD's stance that I want nothing to do with the generic Cop. I view the criminal justice machine as an industrial lathe that, if I get too close, with snatch & corkscrew me to death without being at all personal about it.

Civilian police oversight types want to criminalize substandard police behavior - if a cop mistakes a cell phone or toy gun for a weapon and kills a citizen, that cop is charged with murder.

This is currently a thing in WA state, where "malice" is required to prosecute the cop.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by tonkadtx » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:54 pm

Not to derail this tread, I sent you a PM Bogatir.
Civilian police oversight types want to criminalize substandard police behavior - if a cop mistakes a cell phone or toy gun for a weapon and kills a citizen, that cop is charged with murder.
I think one of the easiest ways (aside from ending the drug war), to clean up some of the excess would be to force police officers to carry personal liability insurance just like medical providers or other professions that can ruin someones life. The basic policy could be paid for by their department and anything over that would need to be paid out of pocket. Bad cops would become un-insurable.

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Re: Officer Friendly.

Post by Turdacious » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:05 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Let's not lose track of the ball...

It's not about serving justice it's about insuring compliance.
Nobody's losing track of the ball. It's both.
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