US Catholic leadership....

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:58 pm

Turdacious wrote:Spells, you're being obtuse. There is a difference between:
paying for birth control through an insurance policy
paying your employees a salary that they can choose to buy birth control with

And you're mistaken if you think the major issue is birth control-- abortifacients are much bigger
Again, those choices are up to the citizen who decides on his own religious beliefs, not the employer's. There is no freedom of religion issue here. It was already been litigated at the state level 10 years ago, appealed up to the (very Catholic) Supreme Court, who declined the case.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:14 pm

8,000 children molested in Milwaukee alone: http://www.jsonline.com/features/religi ... 44534.html

By faggot pedophile Catholic priests.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:41 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Turdacious wrote:Spells, you're being obtuse. There is a difference between:
paying for birth control through an insurance policy
paying your employees a salary that they can choose to buy birth control with

And you're mistaken if you think the major issue is birth control-- abortifacients are much bigger
Again, those choices are up to the citizen who decides on his own religious beliefs, not the employer's. There is no freedom of religion issue here. It was already been litigated at the state level 10 years ago, appealed up to the (very Catholic) Supreme Court, who declined the case.
As far as I know, it's an unprecedented power grab on a federal level. If the 1st amendment only applies to individuals and not the organization, is there anything the gov't can't coerce from a religion? If the pork lobby donates enough money to an administration, can the feds force orthodox Jewish and Muslim universities or hospitals to serve pork chops for lunch at their colleges or hospitals? After all, the patients aren't forced to eat the pork, right?

The truth of the matter is that in the Obama led secular agenda, no cow is more sacred than so-called reproductive rights. There are far less heavy handed compromises that could be reached if Obama respected religion nearly as much as the sacred rite of abortion and its ardent NARAL and NOW supporters.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Turdacious » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:47 pm

Fat Cat wrote:8,000 children molested in Milwaukee alone: http://www.jsonline.com/features/religi ... 44534.html

By faggot pedophile Catholic priests.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:08 pm

This guy is probably framing the counter-argument from a Catholic perspective better than I am:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/03/opinion/s ... index.html
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Gene » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:10 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:.....in an ironic twist of fate.

Now it's constitution this and constitution that. After years of helping the democratic party and others, but mostly the democratic party, wipe their asses with the US Constitution; they have found their inner Thomas Jefferson. Socialism for thee, but not for me; or so they thought.

Hypocrisy doesn't even begin to describe these people's actions.
Wonder if the left leaning Catholic Council of Bishops is enjoying the "intrusion" or is it the prospect that the "someone else" who has to change their ways is going to be them for a change?
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:18 pm

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Turdacious » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:39 am

Grandpa's Spells wrote:This guy is probably framing the counter-argument from a Catholic perspective better than I am:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/03/opinion/s ... index.html
You're probably right.

Just a few things:
1. His facts are a little off (doesn't differentiate between US Catholics and Catholics worldwide; no differentiation between cultural Catholics and practicing ones; also no sources).
2. Focuses on the birth control aspect-- not the biggest issue. The abortofacient issue is much bigger and much more important. The focus on birth control is a form of a straw man argument. Acceptable from others, but for someone trained in the Catholic intellectual tradition-- this is unacceptable laziness.
3. US intellectual Catholics, as you know, are much more socially liberal than the Church would like. More recently promoted bishops tend to be much more orthodox, as do more recent priests. And I believe the trend is that growing parishes tend to be more traditional.

More importantly:
1. The Catholic Church is not a democracy. Never has been.
2. The question of whether or not the US government should have the dictate what the Catholic Church should believe in practice is not answered.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Thatcher II » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:20 am

LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:02 pm

Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
The fact that it's the RC church is irrelevant. Americans (at least right thinking ones) don't want the federal gov't dicking around with their religion (or lack thereof), their guns, or their other liberties (especially speech). If that makes the USA a laughing stock, the laughers can rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by kreator » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
Nice troll - get some edumacation. The fact that a religion is the one protesting is really just a side issue as this has very little to do with religion.

It's the fact that the gov't is forcing employers to give their employees free stuff and calling it healthcare. There is no reason why anyone should be forced to pay for someone else to have their tubes tied.


What about my Constitutional right to free unlimited backrubs as "preventative care"?

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Batboy2/75 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:Now it's constitution this and constitution that. After years of helping the democratic party and others, but mostly the democratic party,
U.S. bishops have supported denying Communion to pro-choice politicians, all of them Democrats. I can't think of an equivalent action against conservatives.

That said, it's been kooky-talk claiming this contraception thing has anything to do with religious liberty. It doesn't.
The Catholic church is a private institution with legal power over no one. While the Federal govt is a public institution with tremendous legal power. The fact that you can't recognize that distinction, pretty much sums up your idiocy.

Contraception is not a 1st addendment issue. Forcing a religious institution to pay for contraception is.

What everyone is missing here is that the government shouldn't be mandating anything in private affairs.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by powerlifter54 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:34 pm

Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Yeah, you got it.

Change the Constitution by amendement if you disagree.

While i have no love for the Catholic Church, and think their stance on birth control and history on the subject leaves much to be desired, the President proclaiming this type of thing, and involving abortion in it more foolishly, then reproclaiming that insurance companies will provide/pay for it instead is way out of bounds.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:42 pm

I'm quite interested in this subject being as I am a Catholic an' all, but I'm not sure if I understand the situation exactly given my ignorance of US healthcare provision.

Have I got it right: The federal government are forcing Catholic institutions that act as employers to provide medical insurance for their staff, under whose cover procedures such as abortions can be carried out?

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by kreator » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:42 pm

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:I'm quite interested in this subject being as I am a Catholic an' all, but I'm not sure if I understand the situation exactly given my ignorance of US healthcare provision.

Have I got it right: The federal government are forcing Catholic institutions that act as employers to provide medical insurance for their staff, under whose cover procedures such as abortions can be carried out?
Almost. I don't think they have to provide for any ol' abortion but contraceptives that work after conception are covered (like morning after pill) which qualifies as abortion to some.

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:42 pm

kreator wrote:
Yes, I'm drunk wrote:I'm quite interested in this subject being as I am a Catholic an' all, but I'm not sure if I understand the situation exactly given my ignorance of US healthcare provision.

Have I got it right: The federal government are forcing Catholic institutions that act as employers to provide medical insurance for their staff, under whose cover procedures such as abortions can be carried out?
Almost. I don't think they have to provide for any ol' abortion but contraceptives that work after conception are covered (like morning after pill) which qualifies as abortion to some.
Ok, thanks. So DrDonkeyLove's pork analogy seems pretty apt here, as far as I can see.

Something similar happened a couple of years ago here in the UK re: adoption services, where it became illegal for Christian adoption agencies to refuse to house a child with a gay couple. Needless to say, the vast majority of adoption agencies had to close on grounds of conscience, and the knock-on effect is that were now starting to see a crisis in adoption service, with a massive backlog of cases and shitloads of kids being denied a family because there aren't enough agencies around to cope with the workload.

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:48 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:The Catholic church is a private institution with legal power over no one. While the Federal govt is a public institution with tremendous legal power. The fact that you can't recognize that distinction, pretty much sums up your idiocy.
Employers have power over their employees.
What everyone is missing here is that the government shouldn't be mandating anything in private affairs.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by baffled » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:06 pm

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:
kreator wrote:
Yes, I'm drunk wrote:I'm quite interested in this subject being as I am a Catholic an' all, but I'm not sure if I understand the situation exactly given my ignorance of US healthcare provision.

Have I got it right: The federal government are forcing Catholic institutions that act as employers to provide medical insurance for their staff, under whose cover procedures such as abortions can be carried out?
Almost. I don't think they have to provide for any ol' abortion but contraceptives that work after conception are covered (like morning after pill) which qualifies as abortion to some.
Ok, thanks. So DrDonkeyLove's pork analogy seems pretty apt here, as far as I can see.

Something similar happened a couple of years ago here in the UK re: adoption services, where it became illegal for Christian adoption agencies to refuse to house a child with a gay couple. Needless to say, the vast majority of adoption agencies had to close on grounds of conscience, and the knock-on effect is that were now starting to see a crisis in adoption service, with a massive backlog of cases and shitloads of kids being denied a family because there aren't enough agencies around to cope with the workload.
Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that the government messing around in something to try and make things more equal for everyone has, in fact, made things worse for just about everyone? *shocked*.

Interesting situation though. I like it when you post on these things because I find the issues in Europe interesting, and especially find politics in England and the UK in general to be even more interesting than they probably are.

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Isn't Europe supposed to be the model for our current government?
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Thatcher II » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:24 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
The fact that it's the RC church is irrelevant. Americans (at least right thinking ones) don't want the federal gov't dicking around with their religion (or lack thereof), their guns, or their other liberties (especially speech). If that makes the USA a laughing stock, the laughers can rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country.
The laughers in Europe do rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country. There are many of them here and they're all more outward-looking, cultured, multi-layered, complex, richer in history, tradition and culture and generally nicer places to live. What we see on the TV emanating from the US is simply horrifying. You have a circus of a media, a circus of a corporate-lobby-infested "political system" and are still stinking of puritanical zeal when it comes to "freedom of this or that". None of you wish to live in a proper society because you lack the trust to do so. It's me, mine, my and fuck you very much. You'd live in gated castle communities and drive tanks if you could. My reaction was to the letter linked on the page and you come out defending the "Constitooshon". It's cartoon stuff. No where else rabbits on about that shit like you. We get on and live our lives and we don't see ourselves acting out some fucking Greek tragedy on an epic scale every time there's a fucking decision in a court. Get a fucking grip, America.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:50 am

Gorbachev wrote:
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
The fact that it's the RC church is irrelevant. Americans (at least right thinking ones) don't want the federal gov't dicking around with their religion (or lack thereof), their guns, or their other liberties (especially speech). If that makes the USA a laughing stock, the laughers can rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country.
The laughers in Europe do rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country. There are many of them here and they're all more outward-looking, cultured, multi-layered, complex, richer in history, tradition and culture and generally nicer places to live. What we see on the TV emanating from the US is simply horrifying. You have a circus of a media, a circus of a corporate-lobby-infested "political system" and are still stinking of puritanical zeal when it comes to "freedom of this or that". None of you wish to live in a proper society because you lack the trust to do so. It's me, mine, my and fuck you very much. You'd live in gated castle communities and drive tanks if you could. My reaction was to the letter linked on the page and you come out defending the "Constitooshon". It's cartoon stuff. No where else rabbits on about that shit like you. We get on and live our lives and we don't see ourselves acting out some fucking Greek tragedy on an epic scale every time there's a fucking decision in a court. Get a fucking grip, America.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Turdacious » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:51 am

Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
Yawn. You're pretty ignorant of US history Kraj.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by baffled » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:58 am

Gorbachev wrote:
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Gorbachev wrote:LOL at the entire issue and reaction. "Special rules for me cos I believe shit and call it religion and the Constitution says I'm special!"

Catholic Church is so fucking far from the original message of Jesus you couldn't make it up. Those molesting, priest-moving, cover-up criminals should be giving to Caesar what is Caesar's, trusting their flock not to do the wrong thing and they should be in sack cloth and ash, atoning for their sins. They have too much power, too much at stake, they have it too cosy and their Jesuitical theologising sickens me to my stomach. BPlaying on " your grandparents built this country for us to be like this" is repulsive and comical.

Wake the fuck up about ALL religions, America. You're a fucking laughing stock. And this shit is dangerous if left unchallenged - it'll bite you hard at some point if it isn't doing so already (Rapture and link to US "influence in ME", anyone?)
The fact that it's the RC church is irrelevant. Americans (at least right thinking ones) don't want the federal gov't dicking around with their religion (or lack thereof), their guns, or their other liberties (especially speech). If that makes the USA a laughing stock, the laughers can rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country.
The laughers in Europe do rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country. There are many of them here and they're all more outward-looking, cultured, multi-layered, complex, richer in history, tradition and culture and generally nicer places to live. What we see on the TV emanating from the US is simply horrifying. You have a circus of a media, a circus of a corporate-lobby-infested "political system" and are still stinking of puritanical zeal when it comes to "freedom of this or that". None of you wish to live in a proper society because you lack the trust to do so. It's me, mine, my and fuck you very much. You'd live in gated castle communities and drive tanks if you could. My reaction was to the letter linked on the page and you come out defending the "Constitooshon". It's cartoon stuff. No where else rabbits on about that shit like you. We get on and live our lives and we don't see ourselves acting out some fucking Greek tragedy on an epic scale every time there's a fucking decision in a court. Get a fucking grip, America.
Wow.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Schlegel » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:03 am

baffled wrote:Wow.
Yeah, the ignorance of most Europeans about the US is pretty appalling. It's as bad as the ignorance they think Americans have about the rest of the world.
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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Dunn » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:28 am

Gorbachev wrote:Retarded troll speak about Amurica

Come down to Georgia. We will show you how ignorant you really are.





Wait....

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Re: US Catholic leadership....

Post by Gene » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:25 am

Gorbachev wrote:The laughers in Europe do rest comfortably in their own paradise of a country. There are many of them here and they're all more outward-looking, cultured, multi-layered, complex, richer in history, tradition and culture and generally nicer places to live.
That's a stereotype....

Here's the reality....





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKEcJ0-1 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anYi5cvs ... re=related

Civil War, race riots, Muslim rape gangs, and limited upward mobility for the average working class European.

Europe has a wonderful culture and legacy, but their governments bite the tool.
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