500 Million Lines of Code

baffled · Post by **baffled** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:52 pm

I'm not a programmer, but I do have a little knowledge and have been working on my coding skills for my work. 500 million lines of code is ridiculous. This thing will never work right.

That sounds bad already. But then there was this head-turner: “One specialist said that as many as five million lines of software code may need to be rewritten before the Web site runs properly.”

Five million lines of code? Well, if that seems like a lot, consider that the site as a whole apparently contains 500 million lines of code. “By comparison,” the Times notes, “a large bank’s computer system is typically about one fifth that size.”

OK, so the site is gargantuan, as measured by lines of code. These numbers are clearly meant to underscore the enormity of the task at hand in building (and fixing) a site the size of Healthcare.gov. But the software developers I’ve talked to see it a little differently. If the site really contains 500 million lines of code, they say, that’s a strong hint that the programmers involved are doing something wrong. (Microsoft’s Windows Vista operating system, by the way, contained some 50 million lines of code, and was criticized for being slow and bloated at that.) And if they’re using the number of lines of code as a metric for progress and project scope, that may be indicative of serious dysfunction in the process.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense ... ay_to.html

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:02 pm

baffled wrote:I'm not a programmer, but I do have a little knowledge and have been working on my coding skills for my work. 500 million lines of code is ridiculous. This thing will never work right.

That sounds bad already. But then there was this head-turner: “One specialist said that as many as five million lines of software code may need to be rewritten before the Web site runs properly.”

Five million lines of code? Well, if that seems like a lot, consider that the site as a whole apparently contains 500 million lines of code. “By comparison,” the Times notes, “a large bank’s computer system is typically about one fifth that size.”

OK, so the site is gargantuan, as measured by lines of code. These numbers are clearly meant to underscore the enormity of the task at hand in building (and fixing) a site the size of Healthcare.gov. But the software developers I’ve talked to see it a little differently. If the site really contains 500 million lines of code, they say, that’s a strong hint that the programmers involved are doing something wrong. (Microsoft’s Windows Vista operating system, by the way, contained some 50 million lines of code, and was criticized for being slow and bloated at that.) And if they’re using the number of lines of code as a metric for progress and project scope, that may be indicative of serious dysfunction in the process.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense ... ay_to.html

The schadenfreude is just delicious! Whats' that? A bunch of politicians, political appointees and their big business buddies fucked up a tech roll out? You don't say? Next you'll tell me the affordable care act is (1) not affordable and (2) was also put together by incompentent politicians.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until the site is finished (snicker) and Obama's hipster voting block finds out they can't keep their doctor & their policy cost is NOT going down by $2,500 a year. Quite the opposite; thier policies costs are going way way up! Not to mention, that little first year penalty is not $95.00. It's actually $95.00 OR 1% (whatever is greater) of your income and it only goes up year after year.

Full steam ahead! I vote for hitting the iceberg and getting this over with!

baffled · Post by **baffled** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Give them the same slack you give Apple!

You know, give them the same slack you'd give Apple if iOS7 had rolled out and kept people from being able to make phone calls for 3 weeks.

The same slack you'd give Apple if you were legally required to buy their products, except they didn't work.

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:29 pm

baffled wrote:Give them the same slack you give Apple!

You know, give them the same slack you'd give Apple if iOS7 had rolled out and kept people from being able to make phone calls for 3 weeks.

The same slack you'd give Apple if you were legally required to buy their products, except they didn't work.

I love how all these statist liberal clowns are on TV spouting off, comparing thier never ending nightmare of a website and law to an actual private enterprise. It's a great illustration of how clueless and ignorant they really are.

TerryB · Post by **TerryB** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:42 pm

What bothers me is that the businesses AREN'T out there defending themselves and crying foul. Apple just got their name dragged through the mud by having their product rollout compared to the catastrophe that is healthcare.gov. The insurance companies have got to be mad as hell that they're spending time and money on this thing and getting bad information, nobody can actually BUY their product, etc etc

The reality is, they keep quiet b/c being on good terms with Washington is how you make big bucks.

baffled · Post by **baffled** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:52 pm

There have been some less than friendly comments from a few insurance companies.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:04 pm

protobuilder wrote:What bothers me is that the businesses AREN'T out there defending themselves and crying foul. Apple just got their name dragged through the mud by having their product rollout compared to the catastrophe that is healthcare.gov. The insurance companies have got to be mad as hell that they're spending time and money on this thing and getting bad information, nobody can actually BUY their product, etc etc

The reality is, they keep quiet b/c being on good terms with Washington is how you make big bucks.

True. However, they are also cancelling policies by the hundreds of thousands based on the assurances that this thing would be up and running on time, and that their current policies would be either noncompliant with the law or noncompetitive with the subsidized ones. When they have to face angry consumers or declining bottom lines (in a business that already runs thin margins), their tune may change.

baffled · Post by **baffled** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:08 pm

My plan's going to be expensive as fuck. It's already more than I would normally need, and I got "lucky" that I got hurt after I switched to this newer and better plan.

If my current stupid idea for athletic competition pans out, I'll need to stay on something like it, which may mean I'll have to choose a less stupid idea to pursue.

Protobuilder · Post by **Protobuilder** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:10 am

I just ran the 500 million lines of code past a few people who would be better informed than me to see if that was even doable. They all initially said that the number had to be incorrect then came to the conclusion that the system isn't going to work or be able to remain working for long.

NPR is talking about it.

...the way governments typically manage computer projects — with diffuse authority, penny pinching and a deadly combination of delays and rigid deadlines — they're especially prone to producing disappointment.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconside ... ment-story

I just saw what you guys are all talking about related to Apple...wow. Apple screwed up Maps and people lost their jobs and the problem was addressed immediately. Of course, you didn't face a potentially huge penalty if you thought that Google had a better product.

Obama used to compare signing up to making an airline reservation but I am not sure he is using that analogy any longer. Kathleen Sebelius went to a town hall meeting and invited people to bring their laptops so she could show them how to sign up...though she couldn't get it to work. The fact that they keep trying to push it as a perfect system with a few "glitches" is incredible in terms of either arrogance or complete misunderstanding of the situation.

baffled · Post by **baffled** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:29 am

Terry B. wrote:I just ran the 500 million lines of code past a few people who would be better informed than me to see if that was even doable. They all initially said that the number had to be incorrect then came to the conclusion that the system isn't going to work or be able to remain working for long.

NPR is talking about it.

...the way governments typically manage computer projects — with diffuse authority, penny pinching and a deadly combination of delays and rigid deadlines — they're especially prone to producing disappointment.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconside ... ment-story

I just saw what you guys are all talking about related to Apple...wow. Apple screwed up Maps and people lost their jobs and the problem was addressed immediately. Of course, you didn't face a potentially huge penalty if you thought that Google had a better product.

Obama used to compare signing up to making an airline reservation but I am not sure he is using that analogy any longer. Kathleen Sebelius went to a town hall meeting and invited people to bring their laptops so she could show them how to sign up...though she couldn't get it to work. The fact that they keep trying to push it as a perfect system with a few "glitches" is incredible in terms of either arrogance or complete misunderstanding of the situation.

Penny pinching? They spent over $300 million on this thing and it doesn't work.

Penny pinching... what-the-fuck-ever, man.

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:32 am

Somewhere there's a GS15 who was involved with this mess but will still be making six figures next year for 40 hours per week.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:36 am

Pinky wrote:Somewhere there's a GS15 who was involved with this mess but will still be making six figures next year for 40 hours per week.

Just one?

Protobuilder · Post by **Protobuilder** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:34 am

baffled wrote:
Terry B. wrote:I just ran the 500 million lines of code past a few people who would be better informed than me to see if that was even doable. They all initially said that the number had to be incorrect then came to the conclusion that the system isn't going to work or be able to remain working for long.

NPR is talking about it.

...the way governments typically manage computer projects — with diffuse authority, penny pinching and a deadly combination of delays and rigid deadlines — they're especially prone to producing disappointment.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconside ... ment-story

I just saw what you guys are all talking about related to Apple...wow. Apple screwed up Maps and people lost their jobs and the problem was addressed immediately. Of course, you didn't face a potentially huge penalty if you thought that Google had a better product.

Obama used to compare signing up to making an airline reservation but I am not sure he is using that analogy any longer. Kathleen Sebelius went to a town hall meeting and invited people to bring their laptops so she could show them how to sign up...though she couldn't get it to work. The fact that they keep trying to push it as a perfect system with a few "glitches" is incredible in terms of either arrogance or complete misunderstanding of the situation.
Penny pinching? They spent over $300 million on this thing and it doesn't work.

Penny pinching... what-the-fuck-ever, man.

Not this in particular but, yeah, gov't types lag behind any major company in terms of tech investment. Private companies don't have the luxury of requiring people to buy their products so need to, you know, make things that actually work.

Herv100 · Post by **Herv100** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:55 am

Whats hilarious are these plans that people are going to be forced to buy. Shit like $7000 deductible with $500 a month premiums for single dudes in their 20s. Very affordable. So people's taxes are going up AND their monthly bills are going up. LMAO, this shit is designed to fail.

OCG · Post by **OCG** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:16 pm

Some days, I feel lucky living in a country with "universal" healthcare and a functional government. Maybe you guys should try it sometime.

$\:D/$

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:43 pm

No way it is 500 Million lines of code. I call bullshit on that. But they do have two huge issues to overcome:

- They're trying integrate systems from a pile of insurance companies and states. Systems of systems. Ugh.
- Because it is implementing law, the system requirements are written (and frequently rewritten) by politicians. Ho-lee shit on that right there.

A better idea would be to open it up to trader systems to support. Each one skims off the top. Then you'd get the Travelocity versus Orbitz type of dynamic of serving the customer base. Government should not run a marketplace, or should get the basic service going so other market services can then come in and provide valued added. Like Accuweather compared to the National Weather Service.

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:29 pm

My development group is having a ball with this.

For you geeks, here's the best response so far:

// Check for valid Social Security Number
if (SSN == "000-00-0000" || SSN == "000-00-0001" ||
SSN == "000-00-0002" || SSN == "000-00-0003" ||
...)

Freki · Post by **Freki** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:48 pm

BucketHead wrote:My development group is having a ball with this.

For you geeks, here's the best response so far:

// Check for valid Social Security Number
if (SSN == "000-00-0000" || SSN == "000-00-0001" ||
SSN == "000-00-0002" || SSN == "000-00-0003" ||
...)

LOL

The Ginger Beard Man · Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:48 pm

Bux, I'm not a geek so be patient with this question.
Does that mean every time someone enters there SSN, it scrolls through all possible permutations of nine digits?
That can't be, right?

ccrow · Post by **ccrow** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:41 pm

I wonder if the way this is structured, the software developers have a strong incentive to create a code monster. One thing about software development is that you are pretty much marrying the people you chose to write your code. To go in to someone else's code and make corrections, changes, and updates is brutally difficult even when it's well designed, well managed, and well documented. (It is a safe assumption that this will be none of those things.) In real non-government life, it's usually clear that you have to just bite the bullet, write it off as a loss, and start over. But I'd bet that if that is the case, the administration can't afford to do that politically, so they'll pour money into a sinking ship. Like they say, sometimes you don't want to but it's cheaper to keep her.

I wouldn't be surprised that the companies that develop this stuff are shrewd enough to know that if they make their code monstrously difficult for someone else to take over, they're pretty much set forever. So they produce code that is gigantic, poorly documented, and fuck it if it doesn't work - they may put you in front of congress and bust your balls about it, they may assess some wrist slap penalty or hold back, but in the end, you're going to get to milk them for a long time.

Of course maybe not - in a world where congressmen vote on laws tens of thousands of pages long that NOBODY has read, let alone the congressmen - who knows how many lines of code that kind of nonsense could generate. I mean a dollar a line could happen so at $300,000,000.00 pretty soon your talking a lot of code.

I'd really like to hear more about how the contracts were awarded, I bet they were pretty much cookies for the congressmen on the winning side to hand out.

ccrow · Post by **ccrow** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:48 pm

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:Bux, I'm not a geek so be patient with this question.
Does that mean every time someone enters there SSN, it scrolls through all possible permutations of nine digits?
That can't be, right?

Sure, that's 1,000,000,001 lines right there!

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:55 pm

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:Bux, I'm not a geek so be patient with this question.
Does that mean every time someone enters there SSN, it scrolls through all possible permutations of nine digits?
That can't be, right?

Yes, but this was one of my developers joking about how something could get so monstrous. It's not actually in the shitty healthcare.gov codebase. I hope.

WildGorillaMan · Post by **WildGorillaMan** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:55 pm

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/v ... ign=Buffer

And the ginormous infographic:

Spoiler: show

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:20 pm

This is nothing. A shit storm is coming when the employer mandate kicks in. The people taking it the shorts now are the uninsured young and the self employed. Wait till the majority of people who have employer subsidized healthcare are dropped from their employers plan into the exchanges.

Spells and nafod will be there to tell us that more government is needed to fix a problem caused by government.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:42 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote: Spells and nafod will be there to tell us that more government is needed to fix a problem caused by government.

Bzzzt. Actually I said the markets should be run by commercial companies in the Travelocity/Orbitz/Amazon/etc. model. Let them compete.

IGX

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