"Hate" Crimes?

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Turdacious
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Turdacious » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:46 am

dead man walking wrote:you missed the point. deliberately, i expect.
I answered the first question, but not the second. We can and do learn; government bureaucracies on the other hand...
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Turdacious » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:19 am

Boris wrote:
Turdacious wrote:From one of the best things I've read in a long time.
Collective guilt doesn't work to change anyone's behavior. In the end, collective guilt, fashioned from bogus analysis and delight in stereotypes, is mere slander. It's a formula for constant antagonism and it's poisoning American politics.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... n-politics
I like his three laws of bogus analysis of groups, but his conclusion is weak. It's like saying that stereotypes are wrong, so don't stereotype those who stereotype.

He is right that guilt is worthless if it doesn't change behavior - like a cheating husband who feels guilty but keeps cheating. But, if there's not going to be a change, I'll take guilt as at least some form of punishment.
He's about as IGx as economists get-- in 2001 he shit on his employer (the World Bank) so eloquently and effectively that they had to fire him. I suspect he wrote it mostly to take a swipe at Paul Collier. I agree with you about the guilt though (I'm Catholic, guilt is what we do).
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by johno » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:38 pm

If we take "Reported Hate Crimes" and subtract "Fake Hate Crimes," what's left?
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:28 pm

benny and turd can explain why these cases aren't actually discrimination.
The Department of Justice has filed a lawsuit against a city in Eastern Michigan, saying it discriminated against a Muslim group by rejecting its application to build a mosque there.

The government’s lawsuit, filed on Thursday, said the denial of the application from the group, the American Islamic Community Center, was the first time in a decade that the planning commission in Sterling Heights . . . has denied a land use application for a house of worship.
. . . Muslims have been stymied for years in their quest to build a mosque on a four-acre plot of land in Basking Ridge

the federal Justice Department has filed a lawsuit against Bernards Township, arguing that its decision violated federal law and. . . discriminated against the applicants purely because of their Muslim faith. The complaint, filed last month, follows a lawsuit brought by Mr. Chaudry’s Islamic Society of Basking Ridge, which has been subjected to anti-Muslim fliers and social media posts and even vandalism.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Turdacious » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:17 pm

The city’s statement said the community center’s application for a new mosque was denied because it was incompatible with adjoining uses and offered insufficient parking and because of concerns over the size and height of the building. The city denied that “emotional feelings tied to religious beliefs either for or against the applicant” played a part.

But the Department of Justice lawsuit claimed that the planning commission’s decision was “inconsistent” with others it had made on places of worship, and that the rejection was “based on anti-Muslim bias.”

Last year, the community center, a nonprofit Muslim group in neighboring Madison Heights, had sought permission to develop 4.35 acres of land in Sterling Heights, because most of its members lived there and because its facility in Madison Heights was too small, the lawsuit said.

The proposed building would have been approximately 20,500 square feet with 130 off-street parking spaces, a dome about 58 feet high and two 66-foot-tall spires — lower than features on nearby churches.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/16/us/mo ... higan.html
I'm no city planner and don't know that area at all, but in an area where most people would presumably have to drive to worship there, that does seem like insufficient parking.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:21 pm

thanks turd. i knew i could count on you.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Turdacious » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:26 pm

dead man walking wrote:thanks turd. i knew i could count on you.
? I have no problem with building churches, mosques, or synagogues. I do think they all should meet reasonable local zoning though.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:52 pm

but was zoing the issue? i guess the courts will sort it out.
Many of the public comments were directed at Mr. Chehab’s religion, the lawsuit said, included a plea to “remember 9/11,” statements that Christians would not be allowed to build a church in Iraq and statements that property values would drop if the mosque were built.

One resident held up a picture of a woman wearing a head covering and said he did not want to “be near people like this,” the lawsuit said. Another said the mosque might be used to store weapons, and another said Homeland Security should investigate the community center because “they’re cutting people’s heads off, they kill our soldiers,” the lawsuit said.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by tough old man » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:45 pm

Mr. Chaudry’s Islamic Society of Basking Ridge,
That right there is grounds to deny. Chaudry is a fucktard.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by bennyonesix » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:27 pm

First time in a decade! Wow!

It is discrimination. And that's fine. Freedom of association. Fuck the right to build whatever "house of worship" wherever. If Dearborn wants to deny Christians, fine.

But there is no reason for non christians or Arabs or what have you in any sig number to be here in the US.

None.

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:28 am

dead man walking wrote:but was zoing the issue? i guess the courts will sort it out.
Many of the public comments were directed at Mr. Chehab’s religion, the lawsuit said, included a plea to “remember 9/11,” statements that Christians would not be allowed to build a church in Iraq and statements that property values would drop if the mosque were built.

One resident held up a picture of a woman wearing a head covering and said he did not want to “be near people like this,” the lawsuit said. Another said the mosque might be used to store weapons, and another said Homeland Security should investigate the community center because “they’re cutting people’s heads off, they kill our soldiers,” the lawsuit said.
Prior to 9/11 (perhaps USS Cole or WTC 1)I don't think most Amurikkkans would get too worked up by a mosque that was built nearby. Since then, with the seemingly endless quantity of Muslim attacks on pretty much everybody, people get nervous.

I doubt that most mosque opposers really care about the worship of others, but really care about personal safety and their own tribal customs being attacked by a CAIR activist or radial Imam.

You're a whole different person when you're scared.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by bennyonesix » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:48 am


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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by bennyonesix » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:08 am


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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by johno » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:55 pm

johno wrote:If we take "Reported Hate Crimes" and subtract "Fake Hate Crimes," what's left?
The Hijab-grabbing and Church-burning "Hate Crimes" are turning out to be hoaxes. Anything left?
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:13 pm

dylann roof.

hold that thought for the next decade.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by johno » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:30 pm

johno wrote:If we take "Reported Hate Crimes" and subtract "Fake Hate Crimes," what's left?
johno wrote:The Hijab-grabbing and Church-burning "Hate Crimes" are turning out to be hoaxes. Anything left?
dead man walking wrote:dylann roof.
I had in mind the Trump Rage that has been widely reported since the election.

But you are absolutely correct that Roof committed a hate crime. And has been convicted for it...justice is done. Death penalty would be fine for him.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:17 pm

as you have shown, adding the true trumprage crimes and subtracting the trumpedup claims is difficult math to do. you got people keen to make claims on both sides of the equation. my point is only that, sadly, hate abides.

can we agree that there has been an increase in tears shed? what that signifies requires the thinking of one above my pay grade.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:39 pm

dead man walking wrote:as you have shown, adding the true trumprage crimes and subtracting the trumpedup claims is difficult math to do. you got people keen to make claims on both sides of the equation. my point is only that, sadly, hate abides.

can we agree that there has been an increase in tears shed? what that signifies requires the thinking of one above my pay grade.
Here's a great great start on why the bitch culture is thriving in the face of a populist backlash.



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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Boris » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:30 pm

I have a copy of "The Righteous Mind" somewhere around here I think - been meaning to get to it. Have you read it? If so, would you recommend it?

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:01 pm

haven't listened yet, bd, but thanks.

for me there is a yuuuuge disconnect between the idea that right and trump are fighting the "elite" and then trump fills his cabinet with ceos and billionaires. that's populism?
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:04 pm

dead man walking wrote:haven't listened yet, bd, but thanks.

for me there is a yuuuuge disconnect between the idea that right and trump are fighting the "elite" and then trump fills his cabinet with ceos and billionaires. that's populism?

Def. listen to that one...populism is not rational, but it may be necessary.
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by johno » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:24 pm

dead man walking wrote: a yuuuuge disconnect between the idea that right and trump are fighting the "elite" and then trump fills his cabinet with ceos and billionaires. that's populism?
Thing 1 - The Right is not Trump and Trump is not The Right. Among others, the National Review, a longtime conservative magazine, published a Never Trump issue before the election. And intellectuals on the right see themselves as elite, as do those on the left. The Right is just holding its breath, waiting to see what this Wildcard President actually DOES.

Thing 2 - Trump Populism rejects the elitism of the "intellectuals & politicos." Instead, Trump is a non-ideological symbol of a Guy Who Gets Shit Done...pragmatic & success-oriented. Few of his followers will complain about Trump hiring military & business successes.

Of course, we're still in the Honeymoon Phase.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by bennyonesix » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:18 pm

Nice post. I'd just add.

Trump is one last try to fix things via the system.

He offers competent management of a multi ethnic empire (a la Putin) which is the best possible outcome.

I hope it works because the neocons and neolibs and high finance and big capital have really fucked shit up m8s.

Unraveling this is going to be bloody.

In other words, don't like Trump? Well, you really won't like what comes next.

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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by dead man walking » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:21 am

johno wrote:
dead man walking wrote: a yuuuuge disconnect between the idea that right and trump are fighting the "elite" and then trump fills his cabinet with ceos and billionaires. that's populism?
Thing 1 - The Right is not Trump and Trump is not The Right.
well, sorta, but Jeff Sessions, Mike Pence, Tom Price, Rick Perry . . .
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Re: "Hate" Crimes?

Post by johno » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:57 am

dead man walking wrote:
johno wrote:
dead man walking wrote: a yuuuuge disconnect between the idea that right and trump are fighting the "elite" and then trump fills his cabinet with ceos and billionaires. that's populism?
Thing 1 - The Right is not Trump and Trump is not The Right.
well, sorta, but Jeff Sessions, Mike Pence, Tom Price, Rick Perry . . .
Good point. But except for Pence, on Election Day voters had no idea who Trump would appoint. Many saw Pence as an Olive Branch to gain the support of conservatives, but not necessarily an indicator that Trump would steer his Populist Roadshow to the right.

Right now, I'd say many on the Right are nervous with Trump on: Trade/tariffs, the implications of his Carrier intervention, Russia & the Ukraine, NATO, his trillion dollar infrastructure ideas, and Constitutional limits on the Presidency.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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