UN Security Council Resolution 2334? (Calling Hebrew Hammer)

[DrDonkeyLove]

What a pre-Hanukkah gift!

Little doubt that Obama used New Zealand and some even lesser countries as cats paws to make this thing happen. Despite O's typical mendacious disingenuousness, what of this policy?

Is it finally a small step towards minimizing Israeli apartheid or a dangerous attack on the only real democracy in the middle east? Israel is an easy scapegoat?

Maybe Israel really is an apartheid state but compared to the rest of the middle east it's a democratic paradise.

Personally, I think anti-Israeli progressivism combined with the Islamization of Europe and plain old Jew hate has pretty much doomed Israel. I'm curious nonetheless.

[Grandpa's Spells]

The ambassador's statement is worth a read.

[Turdacious]

It would mean more if the administration had more than 30 days left in office.

[dead man walking]

didn't netanyahu come here and lobby congress against the iran treaty?

payback?

[TerryB]

The ambassador's statement is worth a read.

What statement?

[DrDonkeyLove]

The ambassador's statement is worth a read.

What statement?

This, I think. Read the resolution. Pretty much seems to be, "You Israelis must stop settlements NOW for your own good, and you Palestinians should stop the terror too". Essentially it's 99.9% directed toward the Israelis despite "you play nice" filler toward the Palestinians.

Kerry will speak today and probably proclaim the love of Obama for the Jewish people to minimize the chance of a decrease in rich Jewish donations to the Democrat party. I suspect Progressive American Jews are a bit embarrassed by Israel today and won't squawk too much anyway.

Funny how with all the unbelievable horror in the world, this is what unites the UN and galvanizes them (and Obama with < a month in office) to action.

Trump doesn't give a fuck.

[nafod]

I think Israel has realized the demographic bomb where Arab Israelis eventually outnumber Jews isn't going happen now (birth rates dropped for former but stay high for the latter) instead the problem is crazy high population growth (highest among modern countries). Israel needs more land, to put it simply. West Bank has got it. Israel is going to take it, rationalization TBD.

Israel's annual population growth rate stood at 2.0% in 2015, more than three times faster than the OECD average of around 0.6%.[3] With an average of 3 children per woman, Israel also has the highest fertility rate in the OECD by a considerable margin, and much higher than the OECD average of 1.7[4]

A 2% growth rate means the population doubles every 35 years. Israel is already super crowded. Got to go somewhere.

Why didn't the Brits give them the Falkland Islands instead of Palestine?

[Turdacious]

Why didn't the Brits give them the Falkland Islands instead of Palestine?

Nazis were going to South America in droves. I think that Jews had had some bad experiences with them.

[Turdacious]

Putting millions of Jews on Islands that can only support a population of about 3k does seem like a particularly nasty solution.

[dead man walking]

The ambassador's statement is worth a read.

What statement?

this statement

https://usun.state.gov/remarks/7621

opens with this:

Let me begin with a quote: “The United States will not support the use of any additional land for the purpose of settlements during the transitional period. Indeed, the immediate adoption of a settlement freeze by Israel, more than any other action, could create the confidence needed for wider participation in these talks. Further settlement activity is in no way necessary for the security of Israel and only diminishes the confidence of the Arabs that a final outcome can be freely and fairly negotiated.”

This was said in 1982 by President Ronald Reagan. He was speaking about a new proposal that he was launching to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. . . .

That has been the policy of every administration, Republican and Democrat, since before President Reagan and all the way through to the present day.

[Pinky]

Putting millions of Jews on Islands that can only support a population of about 3k does seem like a particularly nasty solution.

They're on an island as it is, minus the water.

[Sangoma]

A friend of mine, an Egyptian, once said: "Imagine if Israelis and Arabs reached peace. The symbiosis of Jewish brains and Arab money would take over the world. You reckon it will ever be allowed"?

For now the Middle East is the market and testing ground for weaponry of everyone. Main marketing strategy - waving coffins with children's corpses, on both sides.

[dead man walking]

what happened to the hebrew hammer? didn't he follow policy about the homeland?

did he and andy shack up?

[Shafpocalypse Now]

I'm for might is right wrt Israel and palestinians

[DrDonkeyLove]

Trump addressed this a bit today in a Q&A. Here's who he was with in the greatest photo in the history of presidents elect. Not sure if King's up for a cabinet position or not.


Then there's this.

[Yes, I'm drunk]

I'm for might is right wrt Israel and palestinians

3edgy5me

[Hebrew Hammer]

While Russian and Turkey were meeting to resolve the Syria war, the US was meeting with New Zealand to resurrect the security council resolution against Israel. Obama has left the US a bystander in the world.

There's plenty of room for disagreements on the settlements. As I understand it, the majority of new building (about 80%) is in areas that in all plans Israel will keep, they are largely suburbs of Jerusalem, where land is tight. About 20% are in outside of Area C (currently the West Bank is split into A (Palestinian control), B (joint) and C (Israeli)).

But Gaza shows that settlements aren't the problem. The Israeli peace camp believed that by withdrawing from Gaza, the Palestinians would be able to start building a homeland, which would slowly lead to a normalized, democratic, country accepting Israel, trading, kumbaya, etc. (The withdrawal from Southern Lebanon had similar, but more muted hopes.) Instead, the Palestinians have turned it into a warring nation with a charter calling for the destruction of Israel and killing all the Jews (read the Hamas charter, it's a doozy).

Gaza ended the naïve peace movement in Israel. It still thrives, though, in the US Jewish community and in parts of the Democratic Party. (Nearly the entire Democratic congressional leadership criticized Obama's action.) Bernie Sanders put Cornel West on the Democratic Party platform committee, and supports Keith Ellison for head of the DNC. That's a perfect snapshot of the situation.

The United Nations is filled with hypocrites. Russia is occupying Konigsberg and parts of the Ukraine. China occupies Tibet. Turkey in Cyprus. The British in the Falklands. Syrian and Iraq are in flames and we're witnessing human tragedy that rivals the massacres in Africa and Cambodia. Yet the UN is obsessed with Israel. I have no idea why Obama buys into this, and why he did this with Israel. My best sense is that he's at heart a naïve believer that the world is ultimately rational and peace-loving and all it takes is legal, logical solutions.

One irony is that his withdrawal from the world has created strange bedfellows: the Sunni nations (Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan) and Israel are friendlier than they've ever been and have a common enemy in Iran and Hezballah. Israel's alliance with India is very strong. Israel/China trade is booming, and Israel and Russia are frenemies. When China and Russia vote against Israel, they make no morality speeches, everyone understands its realpolitik.

Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely and bring some sanity - peace comes only with an acceptance of reality and putting in place safeguards. Much of the world is on a hair trigger, though, and I hope he doesn't trip it. The only solution to the Middle East is time - for radical Islam to run its course (communism took 80 years to do so), for the wars to become so devastating that everyone tires of them, and for Arab Muslims to yearn more for normality than resurrecting the Caliphate. I do think that will happen, but only Andy will live long enough to see it.

[powerlifter54]

While Russian and Turkey were meeting to resolve the Syrian The majority of new building war, the US was meeting with New Zealand to resurrect the security council resolution against Israel. Obama has left the US a bystander in the world.

There's plenty of room for disagreements on the settlements. As I understand it, the majority of new building (about 80%) is in areas that in all plans Israel will keep, they are largely suburbs of Jerusalem, where land is tight. About 20% are in outside of Area C (currently the West Bank is split into A (Palestinian control), B (joint) and C (Israeli)).

But Gaza shows that settlements aren't the problem. The Israeli peace camp believed that by withdrawing from Gaza, the Palestinians would be able to start building a homeland, which would slowly lead to a normalized, democratic, country accepting Israel, trading, kumbaya, etc. (The withdrawal from Southern Lebanon had similar, but more muted hopes.) Instead, the Palestinians have turned it into a warring nation with a charter calling for the destruction of Israel and killing all the Jews (read the Hamas charter, it's a doozy).

Gaza ended the naïve peace movement in Israel. It still thrives, though, in the US Jewish community and in parts of the Democratic Party. (Nearly the entire Democratic congressional leadership criticized Obama's action.) Bernie Sanders put Cornel West on the Democratic Party platform committee, and supports Keith Ellison for head of the DNC. That's a perfect snapshot of the situation.

The United Nations if filled with hypocrites. Russia is occupying Konigsberg and parts of the Ukraine. China occupies Tibet. Turkey in Cyprus. The British in the Falklands. Syrian and Iraq are in flames and we're witnessing human tragedy that rivals the massacres in Africa and Cambodia. Yet the UN is obsessed with Israel. I have no idea why Obama buys into this, and why he did this with Israel. My best sense is that he's at heart a naïve believer that the world is ultimately rational and peace-loving and all it takes is legal, logical solutions.

One irony is that his withdrawal from the world has created strange bedfellows: the Sunni nations (Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan) and Israel are friendlier than they've ever been and have a common enemy in Iran and Hezballah. Israel's alliance with India is very strong. Israel/China trade is booming, and Israel and Russia are frenemies. When China and Russia vote against Israel, they make no morality speeches, everyone understands its realpolitik.

Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely and bring some sanity - peace comes only with an acceptance of reality and putting in place safeguards. Much of the world is on a hair trigger, though, and I hope he doesn't trip it. The only solution to the Middle East is time - for radical Islam to run its course (communism took 80 years to do so), for the wars to become so devastating that everyone tires of them, and for Arab Muslims to yearn more for normality than resurrecting the Caliphate. I do think that will happen, but only Andy will live long enough to see it.

[DrDonkeyLove]

My best sense is that he's at heart a naïve believer that the world is ultimately rational and peace-loving and all it takes is legal, logical solutions.

My best sense is that he's an utter narcissist who wants to get back at Netanyahu. He and his fellow travelers in the far left need a western leaning racialist bogeyman victimizer to rally against.

Israel is the designated pariah state of todays young progressives - including Jews. You've pretty much lost Europe, the US is starting to fall in step, and you're losing young Reformed and non-religious US Jews.

You're really not going to enjoy the next lib president and congress when they start to put teeth into BDS.

[DrDonkeyLove]

My best sense is that he's at heart a naïve believer that the world is ultimately rational and peace-loving and all it takes is legal, logical solutions.

My best sense is that he's an utter narcissist who wants to get back at Netanyahu. He and his fellow travelers in the far left need a western leaning racialist bogeyman victimizer to rally against.

Israel is the designated pariah state of todays young progressives - including Jews. You've pretty much lost Europe, the US is starting to fall in step, and you're losing young Reformed and non-religious US Jews, most especially at universities.

You're really not going to enjoy the next lib president and congress when they start to put teeth into BDS.

[dead man walking]

While Russian and Turkey were meeting to resolve the Syrian The majority of new building war, the US was meeting with New Zealand to resurrect the security council resolution against Israel. Obama has left the US a bystander in the world.

There's plenty of room for disagreements on the settlements. As I understand it, the majority of new building (about 80%) is in areas that in all plans Israel will keep, they are largely suburbs of Jerusalem, where land is tight. About 20% are in outside of Area C (currently the West Bank is split into A (Palestinian control), B (joint) and C (Israeli)).

But Gaza shows that settlements aren't the problem. The Israeli peace camp believed that by withdrawing from Gaza, the Palestinians would be able to start building a homeland, which would slowly lead to a normalized, democratic, country accepting Israel, trading, kumbaya, etc. (The withdrawal from Southern Lebanon had similar, but more muted hopes.) Instead, the Palestinians have turned it into a warring nation with a charter calling for the destruction of Israel and killing all the Jews (read the Hamas charter, it's a doozy).

Gaza ended the naïve peace movement in Israel. It still thrives, though, in the US Jewish community and in parts of the Democratic Party. (Nearly the entire Democratic congressional leadership criticized Obama's action.) Bernie Sanders put Cornel West on the Democratic Party platform committee, and supports Keith Ellison for head of the DNC. That's a perfect snapshot of the situation.

The United Nations if filled with hypocrites. Russia is occupying Konigsberg and parts of the Ukraine. China occupies Tibet. Turkey in Cyprus. The British in the Falklands. Syrian and Iraq are in flames and we're witnessing human tragedy that rivals the massacres in Africa and Cambodia. Yet the UN is obsessed with Israel. I have no idea why Obama buys into this, and why he did this with Israel. My best sense is that he's at heart a naïve believer that the world is ultimately rational and peace-loving and all it takes is legal, logical solutions.

One irony is that his withdrawal from the world has created strange bedfellows: the Sunni nations (Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan) and Israel are friendlier than they've ever been and have a common enemy in Iran and Hezballah. Israel's alliance with India is very strong. Israel/China trade is booming, and Israel and Russia are frenemies. When China and Russia vote against Israel, they make no morality speeches, everyone understands its realpolitik.

Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely and bring some sanity - peace comes only with an acceptance of reality and putting in place safeguards. Much of the world is on a hair trigger, though, and I hope he doesn't trip it. The only solution to the Middle East is time - for radical Islam to run its course (communism took 80 years to do so), for the wars to become so devastating that everyone tires of them, and for Arab Muslims to yearn more for normality than resurrecting the Caliphate. I do think that will happen, but only Andy will live long enough to see it.

thanks, hammer

[nafod]

OK, to play the other side of the argument...

Kerry wasn't lying when he said it has been the policy of the US Government since Reagan to promote the 2 state solution. Obama didn't create that policy, he maintained it. Reagan, Bush, Bush II are repubs, remember. Under his term, Netanyahu has accelerated the settlements, which are in direct conflict with the two state solution that as policy we support, while at the same time gladly taking over $24B in military assistance from us. Kind of a "fuck you" while sticking their hands in our pockets. I thought maybe he'd return it in protest. I mean after all...

Israel's economy also ranks 17th among the world's most economically developed nations, according to IMD's World Competitiveness Yearbook rankings. The Israeli economy was ranked as the world's most durable economy in the face of crises, and was also ranked first in the rate research and development center investments.[180]

They really need our money?

It is well-known that the Israelis spy on us like nobody's business, and Netanyahu's coming to address congress was as much a manipulation of an election as the Russians.

Does the UN pick on Israel? Yes. Is it going to change? Is whining going to change it? You know that answer to that one.

So HH, basically you are going to support a solution that involves apartheid? How'd that work out for South Africa? Or just push the Palestinians out of the West Bank to...where? Or out-breed them (you are) which means your population will double in 30-some years, which means you'll need land, which you will get from...where?

Not sure why the US of A needs to be deeply involved in this, why it is in our interest to get dragged into it, especially since you acknowledge realpolitik trumps ideals, and ideals of beacon of democracy in the middle east and stuff like that seem to be a core part of the reason to support Israel. The proxy cold war reason is pretty much gone? What is our interest in that mess?

[Shafpocalypse Now]

I used to be kinda neutral on Israel, but after this resolution and reading up on the irrational prejudice the UN has for Israel, I find Obama's actions both cowardly and kowtowing excessively to the Sauds.

Israel has endured far more terrorism than the US ever has, and yet they are still not a fascist state, and opportunity exists for Muslims in the country still

[Grandpa's Spells]

The United Nations is filled with hypocrites. Russia is occupying Konigsberg and parts of the Ukraine. China occupies Tibet. Turkey in Cyprus. The British in the Falklands. Syrian and Iraq are in flames and we're witnessing human tragedy that rivals the massacres in Africa and Cambodia. Yet the UN is obsessed with Israel. I have no idea why Obama buys into this, and why he did this with Israel.

I realize it is painful to read things that disagree with your worldview, so here are some key excerpts from the ambassador's statement. In short, Obama is taking almost the exact same position you are.

On why the administration allowed the resolution to pass: tl/dr every American administration does this:

The United States has been sending the message that the settlements must stop – privately and publicly – for nearly five decades, through the administrations of Presidents Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and now Barack Obama. Indeed, since 1967, the only president who had not had at least one Israeli-Palestinian-related Security Council resolution pass during his tenure is Barack Obama. So our vote today is fully in line with the bipartisan history of how American Presidents have approached both the issue – and the role of this body.

On why the UN is full of hypocrites when it comes to Israel: tl/dr the UN is full of shit in general when it comes to Israel:

Given the consistency of this position across U.S. administrations, one would think that it would be a routine vote for the U.S. to allow the passage of a resolution with the elements in this one, reaffirming the long-standing U.S. position on settlements, condemning violence and incitement, and calling for the parties to start taking constructive steps to reverse current trends on the ground. These are familiar, well-articulated components of U.S. policy.

But in reality this vote for us was not straightforward, because of where it is taking place – at the United Nations. For the simple truth is that for as long as Israel has been a member of this institution, Israel has been treated differently from other nations at the United Nations. And not only in decades past – such as in the infamous resolution that the General Assembly adopted in 1975, with the support of the majority of Member States, officially determining that, “Zionism is a form of racism” – but also in 2016, this year. One need only look at the 18 resolutions against Israel adopted during the UN General Assembly in September; or the 12 Israel-specific resolutions adopted this year in the Human Rights Council – more than those focused on Syria, North Korea, Iran, and South Sudan put together – to see that in 2016 Israel continues to be treated differently from other Member States.

Like U.S. administrations before it, the Obama Administration has worked tirelessly to fight for Israel’s right simply to be treated just like any other country – from advocating for Israel to finally be granted membership to a UN regional body, something no other UN Member State had been denied; to fighting to ensure that Israeli NGOs are not denied UN accreditation, simply because they are Israeli, to getting Yom Kippur finally recognized as a UN holiday; to pressing this Council to break its indefensible silence in response to terrorist attacks on Israelis. As the United States has said repeatedly, such unequal treatment not only hurts Israel, it undermines the legitimacy of the United Nations itself.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Spells,

At a narrow level, this resolution broke ground (as I understand it) in recognizing the 1949 armistice lines, and providing grounds for Int'l Court activities. But, bigger picture, the US actively resurrected the resolution after Egypt dropped it, and told New Zealand we wouldn't veto. It gave heart to those who believe Israel will be forced into giving up all the territory. And, after South Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Yemen, it's empty to assume that settlements are the problem preventing peace.