CA, WA homeless policies

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Grandpa's Spells
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CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:50 am

In San Diego with the family for a few days, and I'm semi-surprised to see the nice parks that are filled with homeless campers. Saw the same thing in Seattle and SF.

What's the deal? This generally doesn't fly in most other cities I've been, where there's a police-enforced attitude of "We made this place to be a public park, not a campground/social center for homeless people."

A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:06 am

Ever been to Boulder? Last time I was there every public space worth a shit was filled to overflowing with vagrants and trustafarians.
I'm as sympathetic to the true poverty and inequality that our competitive system of economics produces, but these were obviously people who just chose to live in the parks and beg rather than go to school or work.
If you don't like the way society is, fine. Change it. But don't leach off the do-ers and get in my face while I'm at the park expecting me to foot the bill for your choice.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by tonkadtx » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:46 pm

I'm as sympathetic to the true poverty and inequality that our competitive system of economics produces, but these were obviously people who just chose to live in the parks and beg rather than go to school or work.
I've had this argument with numerous people, who don't understand that 99.999999% of homeless people in the U.S. are not just poor, they are severely mentally ill or in the lowest depths of substance abuse or both.

Here are two really good articles.


http://gladwell.com/million-dollar-murray/
The homelessness problem is like the L.A.P.D.’s bad-cop problem. It’s a matter of a few hard cases, and that’s good news, because when a problem is that concentrated you can wrap your arms around it and think about solving it. The bad news is that those few hard cases are hard. They are falling-down drunks with liver disease and complex infections and mental illness. They need time and attention and lots of money. But enormous sums of money are already being spent on the chronically homeless, and Culhane saw that the kind of money it would take to solve the homeless problem could well be less than the kind of money it took to ignore it. Murray Barr used more health-care dollars, after all, than almost anyone in the state of Nevada. It would probably have been cheaper to give him a full-time nurse and his own apartment.

The leading exponent for the power-law theory of homelessness is Philip Mangano, who, since he was appointed by President Bush in 2002, has been the executive director of the U.S. Interagency Council on Homelessness, a group that oversees the programs of twenty federal agencies. Mangano is a slender man, with a mane of white hair and a magnetic presence, who got his start as an advocate for the homeless in Massachusetts. In the past two years, he has crisscrossed the United States, educating local mayors and city councils about the real shape of the homelessness curve. Simply running soup kitchens and shelters, he argues, allows the chronically homeless to remain chronically homeless. You build a shelter and a soup kitchen if you think that homelessness is a problem with a broad and unmanageable middle. But if it’s a problem at the fringe it can be solved. So far, Mangano has convinced more than two hundred cities to radically reëvaluate their policy for dealing with the homeless.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:13 pm

Houston tries keeps the homeless away from wealthier neighborhoods and areas, but there are parks in poorer areas that a chock full of nodding drug addicted homeless laying in the shade. The lack of zoning in Houston backfires a lot, since many shitty areas are right next to areas with multi million dollar houses...but the nice parks big parks are usually kept clear

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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:15 pm

Alfred's discussion of Boulder is different...there are tons of people who choose to live outside and camp in the summer in Colorado because of the mild climate, many of them work ski resort jobs when that season comes around, and rent places to live. It used to drive my brother crazy when friends of his wanted to camp out in his backyard all summer

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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Pinky » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:54 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.
I assumed the weather was driving the higher rates of younger, less crazy looking homeless people on the west coast.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:16 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:In San Diego with the family for a few days, and I'm semi-surprised to see the nice parks that are filled with homeless campers. Saw the same thing in Seattle and SF.

What's the deal? This generally doesn't fly in most other cities I've been, where there's a police-enforced attitude of "We made this place to be a public park, not a campground/social center for homeless people."

A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.
I don't get it either other than, perhaps, the milder west coast weather plus the leftier left coast politics creates a homeless magnet that the locals can't deal with for fear of being considered lacking in Progressive virtue.

SD is a great place. If you're near Pacific Beach, Barrel Republic is a great beer bar. They have a few dozen taps that you can pour yourself via an RFID bracelet. Fun for tastings. No food. Kids might not be allowed.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:35 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:In San Diego with the family for a few days, and I'm semi-surprised to see the nice parks that are filled with homeless campers. Saw the same thing in Seattle and SF.

What's the deal? This generally doesn't fly in most other cities I've been, where there's a police-enforced attitude of "We made this place to be a public park, not a campground/social center for homeless people."

A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.

In Seattle, the Council have as much said their goal is to make homelessness so obnoxious and so repugnant and visible that people will be forced to act and or tolerate high levels of local taxation to fix it.

The opposite has turned out the be true as you'd expect.
This has resulted in a phenomenal loss of dignity for the disadvantaged and a disturbing amount of low level street violence and animosity towards the homeless.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by JimZipCode » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:05 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:SD is a great place. If you're near Pacific Beach, Barrel Republic is a great beer bar.
We had a great weekend breakfast at Harbor Breakfast, corner of Beach and India.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Pinky » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:34 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Grandpa's Spells wrote:In San Diego with the family for a few days, and I'm semi-surprised to see the nice parks that are filled with homeless campers. Saw the same thing in Seattle and SF.

What's the deal? This generally doesn't fly in most other cities I've been, where there's a police-enforced attitude of "We made this place to be a public park, not a campground/social center for homeless people."

A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.

In Seattle, the Council have as much said their goal is to make homelessness so obnoxious and so repugnant and visible that people will be forced to act and or tolerate high levels of local taxation to fix it.

The opposite has turned out the be true as you'd expect.
This has resulted in a phenomenal loss of dignity for the disadvantaged and a disturbing amount of low level street violence and animosity towards the homeless.
At least Seattle smells better than San Francisco. I was in SF last winter, it had been raining for at least a few days, and the whole place still smelled like a bong full of urine. The homeless were more visible when I was in Seattle last spring, but they didn't smell as bad.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:00 am

I read a little and apparently the ACLU sued and argued you can't criminalize sleeping. But there are signs posted about other policies that are ignored. Drag. People would have lunch in parks if it wasn't such a mess.

Cool town though. Couldn't figure out all the 40+ dudes getting around on skateboards until I realized they're probably surfers.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by DikTracy6000 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:11 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:In San Diego with the family for a few days, and I'm semi-surprised to see the nice parks that are filled with homeless campers. Saw the same thing in Seattle and SF.

What's the deal? This generally doesn't fly in most other cities I've been, where there's a police-enforced attitude of "We made this place to be a public park, not a campground/social center for homeless people."

A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.
SF's parks have been campgrounds for homeless and vagrants for at least a decade, maybe two.

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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by nafod » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:18 pm

Three words:

Automatic sprinkler system
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Turdacious » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:28 pm

nafod wrote:Three words:

Automatic sprinkler system
During the 80's when the homeless problem in Portland peaked, downtown businesses used to hire trucks to clean their entrances every night with the idea being that a cold wet entrance would discourage the homeless from sleeping there.

Two other complicating factors-- women and children fleeing domestic violence and a shelter shortage.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:27 pm

DikTracy6000 wrote:
Grandpa's Spells wrote:In San Diego with the family for a few days, and I'm semi-surprised to see the nice parks that are filled with homeless campers. Saw the same thing in Seattle and SF.

What's the deal? This generally doesn't fly in most other cities I've been, where there's a police-enforced attitude of "We made this place to be a public park, not a campground/social center for homeless people."

A different attitude seems prevalent here, but I don't get it.
SF's parks have been campgrounds for homeless and vagrants for at least a decade, maybe two.
Seattle has essentially legalized camping in any public space that's not a park or public street. There are minim encampments everywhere. Compared to what was awful 6 years ago it is now staggering. It's truly a massive public health epidemic. It's disgusting.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by climber511 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:58 pm

Where do all these people go to the restroom? I would think local businesses would be overwhelmed and raising all kinds of hell?

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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by DikTracy6000 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:47 pm

Turdacious wrote:
nafod wrote:Three words:

Automatic sprinkler system
During the 80's when the homeless problem in Portland peaked, downtown businesses used to hire trucks to clean their entrances every night with the idea being that a cold wet entrance would discourage the homeless from sleeping there.

Two other complicating factors-- women and children fleeing domestic violence and a shelter shortage.
My last time in Portland, which was a couple years back, people were camping on the exit ramps and under bridges on highways. Of course Portland also puts on a great jazz festival that is partly under a highway overpass adjacent to some park. The homeless had a sizable presence there also. Great town all in all.

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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:51 pm

Underpasses are popular homeless camps in Chicago and make sense given the climate. The west coast model is really irritating the more time I'm around it.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by powerlifter54 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:09 pm

climber511 wrote:Where do all these people go to the restroom? I would think local businesses would be overwhelmed and raising all kinds of hell?
I had similiar thoughts at the Portland Beer Festival. One word: Epic.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Turdacious » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:52 pm

From a recent Loyola NO study:
Youth reported that their fear of sleeping on the streets left them vulnerable to sex and labor traffickers and to survival sex.
Securing housing was a primary concern for the vast majority of the youth we interviewed. Sixty-eight percent (68%) of the youth who had either been trafficked or engaged in survival sex or commercial sex had done so while homeless. Nineteen percent (19%) of all youth interviewed had engaged in survival sex solely so that they could access housing or food. This problem is even starker among those who are not sheltered. The incidence of trafficking among drop-in youth—sometimes called “street youth”—was high relative to the sheltered cohort: 24% were trafficked for sex, 13% for labor. Forty-one percent (41%) of interviewed drop-in youth had engaged in the sex trade in some way at some point in their lives. One-third (33%) of them had engaged in survival sex as either adults or minors. Many of the trafficked youth who were accessing Covenant House’s shelter programs said they saw the shelters as safe havens from their traffickers.
https://www.covenanthouse.org/landing/trafficking/
In 2013, Covenant House New York completed a study in conjunction with Fordham University which found that an estimated 25% of surveyed NYC Covenant House residents were victims of human trafficking or had been forced to engage in survival sex (trading sex for food or shelter).

According to a study conducted by LifeWay Network and Hofstra University, between 2000 and 2010 service providers in New York City interacted with more than 11,200 confirmed victims of human trafficking. The City of New York contains less than 50 dedicated beds to house survivors of human trafficking.

Traffickers use the lack of youth homeless shelter beds as a way to lure young people in and force them into exploitation. They tell them that the shelters are full and coerce them by asking “where are you going to go, why don’t you come with me.” Coercion techniques commonly used include threats of physical harm to the victim or their family. With threats like these, the naive and hopeful children are soon faced with the violence of forced slavery and prostitution. In fact, coercion is so powerful that if is capable of keeping a victim enslaved without any restraints or violence.

In 2008, a study from John Jay University found that as much as 50% of human trafficking victims in the United States were young boys.

A 2014 medical journal published by the University of Loyola Chicago found that 65% of human trafficking victims in the city of Chicago ended up in the emergency room during their time in forced prostitution. Over 90% needed serious medical help and came into contact with a health professional – or more accurately – were finally allowed by their pimp to seek medical treatment for their injuries.

LGBT youth, while already making up 40% of the runaway and homeless youth population in the US , are exponentially more likely to fall victim to human trafficking in the United States.
https://www.covenanthouse.org/homeless- ... rafficking
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by syaigh » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:28 pm

Last time I was in Seattle it was like being at a dead show. A whole bunch of able bodied young people, barefoot, with Iphones. Its almost like a lifestyle choice. "Lets go be homeless for a few years! We'll do drugs and shit and it'll be cool!"

Not kidding at all.

However, when I was in Park City, Utah, there were very few homeless folks. And the ones I saw were desperately ill, mentally or otherwise. Big contrast. I gave my breakfast away three of the four days I was there and probably bought a few more meals and gave out cash just because. When you see a young man curled up in the fetal position, trembling and afraid, with a sign asking for help, its waaaaaay different than a bunch of hippies asking on a sign if they can have a handout so they can buy pot.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:06 am

That's the same experience you get in the big cities in Colorado, and to a lesser extent the hipper mountain towns in the Appalachians. Asheville, NC is full up with trustafarians now.

Atlanta on the other hand is like your experience in Utah. People who desperately need help due to mental or physical disabilities. It's sickening to see some of the lines at the shelters and kitchens some mornings.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:10 am

Reading through some of Turd's studies is another stomach turning endeavor. We have an idiot in chief who claims that his experience as a businessman makes him somehow qualified to make decisions for a society. Seems to me that the point of any business is to get the most productivity for the least investment. I'd like to see the People Helped/Dollar Spent ratio for investing in social programs here vs. dicking around with our military empire in 130-odd countries and 800-odd bases.
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by Turdacious » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:54 am

Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:Reading through some of Turd's studies is another stomach turning endeavor. We have an idiot in chief who claims that his experience as a businessman makes him somehow qualified to make decisions for a society. Seems to me that the point of any business is to get the most productivity for the least investment. I'd like to see the People Helped/Dollar Spent ratio for investing in social programs here vs. dicking around with our military empire in 130-odd countries and 800-odd bases.
IMHO the federal part of the issue is pretty much taken care of: all of the west coast states accepted the Medicaid expansion which should result in all the homeless having medical coverage for health and substance abuse.

Everything else is pretty much on states and localities. They are the ones who can choose to increase Medicaid reimbursement rates (which would result in more treatment options), control the zoning laws regarding shelters and homeless support, and who can put more money into shelters in a sustainable fashion (federal grants are generally too short term).

Of coarse, places with generous policies toward the homeless attract more homeless (which lifts the burden for caring for them from other municipalities).
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Re: CA, WA homeless policies

Post by TerryB » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:47 am

Surely the good liberals out there in west coast liberal land are taking these downtrodden folks into their homes??
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