Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:44 pm

nafod wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:24 am
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:08 am
There are multiple areas where we can make bipartisan progress towards reducing gun violence before infringing on the legitimate rights of tens of millions of harmless & decent gun owners. That's how it should be IMO.
I'm totally down with that, absolutely, hell we should try anything, something, but I don't think it is going to work.

If there was a chance we'd make this sort of move, we'd have done it after a bunch of little children were gunned down in an elementary school. Yet nothing has changed. Nothing...except for the quality of the weaponry. It just keeps getting better, and therefore easier to kill lots of people.

Bump stocks. Did it really take 58 country music-loving citizens to die (and another 500 to get injured, some shot through the head I imagine, so not much living going on there) before someone who is supposed to anticipate these things (Our elected reps? Owned and operated by the NRA?) realized that the ability to convert a semi-auto to full auto might be A Bad Thing? All these years of "gun huggers" pointing out how stupid the "gun grabbers" are for confusing semi-autos with automatics, meanwhile they knew damn well these things are coming on the market, giving the next nut case full auto, and not a fucking peep. But wouldn't want to interfere with the #fullautofriday spraygasm.

Based on what the bump stocks are made out of, they're just a quick 3D print job in a basement. We'll be seeing them again in the next shooting.

This story didn't get much notice, because of the Vegas shooting...
http://wreg.com/2017/10/05/police-man-c ... is-coming/
WASHINGTON COUNTY, Tenn. — New information has been released about the man caught carrying numerous weapons and more than 900 rounds of ammunition in east Tennessee.

According to CBS affiliate WJHL, Scott Edmisten was “unsteady” and “very angry” when authorities pulled him over during a traffic stop this week.

...An inventory of his vehicle recovered a loaded .357 magnum, a loaded .45 semi auto, a full auto AR rifle in .223 caliber, a full auto AR rifle in .308 caliber, over 900 rounds of ammunition, a mask and black fatigues. Neither of the full auto rifles were registered and the serial numbers were gone.

Four other guns were reportedly discovered inside the suspect’s home as officer’s executed a search warrant. One had been altered to make it fully automatic. Investigators also found about $6,000 worth of ammunition that hadn’t been opened.

Washington County Sheriff Ed Graybeal told the Associated Press while guns and ammunition are common in Tennessee, it was “odd” for all the guns and clips to be loaded. In addition, he said, when people have survival gear with them, they are usually going hunting, but that didn’t seem to be the case.
Oh he was going hunting, alright. Would have been two unrelated mass shootings days apart.
Why should politicians do anything as simple as take baby steps to resolve gun related issues? It's a magnificently profitable wedge issue for both sides. Today's convenient beté noir are the NRA and their mouth breathing racist obsessive/fanatical fever swamp supporters but there are dollars and votes aplenty on the other side as well.

This vitriolic and virtue signaling debate increases our mutual disgust of each other. Leftist politicians made people like me complicit in the LV carnage and stained with the blood of victims. Gun rights politicians characterize people like you as guilty of trying to disarm the populace so we're defenseless against criminals, terrorists, and the ever growing police state.

Gun rights advocates "know" the left's end game is to get the US as close to Australian gun laws as possible despite their blatant lies. Similarly, abortion rights obsessives/fanatics treat tiny abortion restrictions as armageddon. They "know" the end game is a total abortion ban. Most of us are more nuanced in our thinking but we're driven towards extreme binary positions by fear (see Trump vs. Hillary).

The playbook on all this stuff is pre-written and ready to go by both sides at a moments notice. The checks will keep rolling in, the animosity will increase, and the unraveling will continue.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by dead man walking » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:06 pm

depressing, but probably accurate, commentary, donkey.

i saw an article today (times, maybe) about the powerful role of confirmation bias in our political conversations. that, too, seemed accurate.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by aussie luke » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:09 pm

Gene wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:08 pm
aussie luke wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:21 am
I live in Australia and am so fucking grateful we don’t have guns.
Ignorance is bliss.....
|
A JEWELLERY maker produced sub-machine guns in his suburban home, selling them through an organised crime syndicate for $15,000 each.

JAILED GANG FOUNDER'S LINK TO OUTSIDE WORLD

Backyard arms trader Angelos Koots admitted making up to 100 of the perfectly constructed MAC 10 machine guns - more commonly seen in war zones and believed to have been used in Sydney gang shootings - at his Seven Hills house.

The guns, sold with two magazines and a silencer, were of such quality that during "Mythbuster" style tests alongside a genuine MAC 10 they fired 600 rounds a minute.

Sydney District Court heard that Koots made the guns for an associate who had links to outlaw motorcycle gangs.

The high-powered made-to-order weapons were then sold at meetings organised by a Penrith gym owner and another syndicate member, with the transaction taking place opposite a McDonalds in Glenmore Park.

When police raided Koots' house, police found diagrams, blocks of aluminium and steel, steel offcuts and moulds matching the MAC 10 machineguns.

Koots was convicted in relation to four guns after getting an immunity provision for giving evidence against other syndicate members. But under cross-examination by crown prosecutor Gary Corr at a hearing in Penrith District Court, Koots admitted he'd manufactured up to 100 of the guns.

Prosecutors believe at least one of the guns may have been used in a high-profile assassination attempt of an OMCG member, but this never made it into evidence.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/jewell ... 08ab560cd4
Normal people here don’t have guns. Drug and bike gangs might have some, to shoot other gangs, but normal people don’t have guns.

Toddlers don’t shoot other toddlers here and people don’t shoot their family members thinking they’re burglars and no matter how fucking mental someone like me went there is absolutely fucking zero chance of me being able to get hold of A gun, let alone 15 fucking semi automatics and a few dozen spare mags and shooting up my workplace. Just doesn’t happen because it can’t.

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:13 pm

aussie luke wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:09 pm
Normal people here don’t have guns. Drug and bike gangs might have some, to shoot other gangs, but normal people don’t have guns.

Toddlers don’t shoot other toddlers here and people don’t shoot their family members thinking they’re burglars and no matter how fucking mental someone like me went there is absolutely fucking zero chance of me being able to get hold of A gun, let alone 15 fucking semi automatics and a few dozen spare mags and shooting up my workplace. Just doesn’t happen because it can’t.

Normal toddlers in the US don't shoot one another either. Normal Americans don't come to work and murder their colleagues. Normal Americans refuse to do such things.

There are an estimated 15,000,000 AR15 pattern firearms in the US. If the people who owned them normally went on shooting rampages I think we'd know about it by now.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gav » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:11 pm

Gene wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:13 pm
aussie luke wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:09 pm
Normal people here don’t have guns. Drug and bike gangs might have some, to shoot other gangs, but normal people don’t have guns.

Toddlers don’t shoot other toddlers here and people don’t shoot their family members thinking they’re burglars and no matter how fucking mental someone like me went there is absolutely fucking zero chance of me being able to get hold of A gun, let alone 15 fucking semi automatics and a few dozen spare mags and shooting up my workplace. Just doesn’t happen because it can’t.

Normal toddlers in the US don't shoot one another either. Normal Americans don't come to work and murder their colleagues. Normal Americans refuse to do such things.

There are an estimated 15,000,000 AR15 pattern firearms in the US. If the people who owned them normally went on shooting rampages I think we'd know about it by now.
Gene, that's a gun every 21.5 citizens. What people from the UK, Australia etc etc don't get is your desire to have one in the first place. The average bloke over here wouldn't dream of having one and for sure doesn't need one. Why are you all so obsessed with your beloved second amendment and the consequences that arise from so many people having guns?
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Turdacious » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:18 pm

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by nafod » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:46 pm

Gene, I don't have time to read your posts, and we've had all of the arguments anyway, and of course I am right and you are wrong, but...

You've won

With semi-autos and a simple to make doodad, we've now entered the world of active shooters with full auto firepower. No putting that genie back in the bottle.

If the victims of the Vegas shooting are the price we pay for the 2nd amendment, then we ought to at least put up a martyrdom wall and have their names on it, ala the Vietnam Memorial. They paid the ultimate price same as any soldier.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by dead man walking » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:29 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:46 pm
If the victims of the Vegas shooting are the price we pay for the 2nd amendment, then we ought to at least put up a martyrdom wall and have their names on it, ala the Vietnam Memorial. They paid the ultimate price same as any soldier.
that's brilliant. bill o'reilly did say episodes like las vegas are the price of freedom. so honoring freedom diers only makes sense.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:14 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:46 pm
Gene, I don't have time to read your posts, and we've had all of the arguments anyway, and of course I am right and you are wrong, but...

You've won

With semi-autos and a simple to make doodad, we've now entered the world of active shooters with full auto firepower. No putting that genie back in the bottle.

We can put the "genie back in the bottle". Are you willing to pay the price in bodies to confiscate these firearms? Are you willing to pay the political price that goes with that number of dead? How many other gun control people will pay this price? I figure damn few.

I do not believe that I am right or wrong. I have an opinion that is shared by many other US citizens.

We have too many people dying in our streets. Thanks to the futile "War on Drugs". More Prohibition is not what is needed right now. We need less.
Last edited by Gene on Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:19 pm

Gav wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:11 pm
Gene, that's a gun every 21.5 citizens. What people from the UK, Australia etc etc don't get is your desire to have one in the first place. The average bloke over here wouldn't dream of having one and for sure doesn't need one. Why are you all so obsessed with your beloved second amendment and the consequences that arise from so many people having guns?

It's a freedom thing, Gav. One that some UK and Australians folks want too.

Why don't you ask your Canadian cousins about their gun culture? There are States in the US with tougher gun laws than in Canada.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by bennyonesix » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:34 pm

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by JimZipCode » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:18 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:44 pm
Similarly, abortion rights obsessives/fanatics treat tiny abortion restrictions as armageddon. They "know" the end game is a total abortion ban.
To be fair, that 100% is the goal of most of the Right.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Sangoma » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:19 am

Gene wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:19 pm
Gav wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:11 pm
Gene, that's a gun every 21.5 citizens. What people from the UK, Australia etc etc don't get is your desire to have one in the first place. The average bloke over here wouldn't dream of having one and for sure doesn't need one. Why are you all so obsessed with your beloved second amendment and the consequences that arise from so many people having guns?

It's a freedom thing, Gav. One that some UK and Australians folks want too.

Why don't you ask your Canadian cousins about their gun culture? There are States in the US with tougher gun laws than in Canada.
I get the freedom thing. Where do you draw the line though? Should you be able to buy a cannon? A tank? Fighter jet? Should I be able to set up a properly armed private army? I can argue that in case of serious disaster the government and its army may not be able to defend me, so I should rather set up an airfield, acquire a few fighter jets and bombers (with bombs, of course), grenade launchers, tanks, some artillery and be ready for the unexpected.

Without a doubt, crime rate is a multi-factorial phenomenon. However, the availability of weapons plays significant role in crime. States with more guns have more death related deaths: The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010 Correlation between ownership and death rate is pretty much a straight line. Apparently, the relationship is also true for suicides. Add to it the fact that about half a million guns are stolen from the law abiding citizens every year - and the idea of guns and freedom is not as straightforward anymore.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by aussie luke » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:33 am

I have the freedom to go about my daily life with 0% chance of being shot, either on purpose or accidentally.

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:09 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:18 pm
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:44 pm
Similarly, abortion rights obsessives/fanatics treat tiny abortion restrictions as armageddon. They "know" the end game is a total abortion ban.
To be fair, that 100% is the goal of most of the Right.
RC & evangelical Religious Right and Libertarian "right" don't align on all the wedge issues IMO.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:22 pm

Interesting article by pollster Scott Rasmussen regarding the gun ownership debate and trust in gov't.
Those who would like to see guns strongly regulated or banned may think they are just seeking to lessen the potential harm or violence in society. But, they are also suggesting that only government officials or those authorized by the government can have a gun. For people to be comfortable with giving government a monopoly on deadly weapons requires a great deal of trust in government.

But, in 21 century America, that's pretty hard to find. In fact, it's been more than 45 years since a majority of Americans trusted the federal government to do the right thing most of the time. And the distrust is growing decade-by-decade. Today only 20 percent trust the federal government most of the time. Only 4 percent "just about always" trust the feds.

It's worth noting that the 45 years of growing distrust in the federal government has coincided with the growth of the Regulatory State. As distant and unaccountable bureaucrats have assumed more power, the disconnect between the government and the governed has grown. While the Regulatory State is designed to limit the influence of voters in government policy, most Americans believe voters should have an even greater voice.

For those who distrust the government, therefore, the notion of letting only the government have guns is absurd. From their perspective, the government already has too much power. Why would we give them more? That perspective explains why 48 percent of Americans believe the right to own a gun is essential for freedom. According to the Pew Center, another 33 percent believe such rights are important for freedom, not essential. Only 19 percent say that the right to own a gun is not important.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by JimZipCode » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:18 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:22 pm
Interesting article by pollster Scott Rasmussen regarding the gun ownership debate and trust in gov't.
Couldn't get past the title. In the wake of a terrible mass shooting, immediately claim that the Gun Control Debate is Not About Guns. Smells like horseshit.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Sangoma » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:54 am

DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:22 pm
Interesting article by pollster Scott Rasmussen regarding the gun ownership debate and trust in gov't.
Those who would like to see guns strongly regulated or banned may think they are just seeking to lessen the potential harm or violence in society. But, they are also suggesting that only government officials or those authorized by the government can have a gun. For people to be comfortable with giving government a monopoly on deadly weapons requires a great deal of trust in government.

But, in 21 century America, that's pretty hard to find. In fact, it's been more than 45 years since a majority of Americans trusted the federal government to do the right thing most of the time. And the distrust is growing decade-by-decade. Today only 20 percent trust the federal government most of the time. Only 4 percent "just about always" trust the feds.

It's worth noting that the 45 years of growing distrust in the federal government has coincided with the growth of the Regulatory State. As distant and unaccountable bureaucrats have assumed more power, the disconnect between the government and the governed has grown. While the Regulatory State is designed to limit the influence of voters in government policy, most Americans believe voters should have an even greater voice.

For those who distrust the government, therefore, the notion of letting only the government have guns is absurd. From their perspective, the government already has too much power. Why would we give them more? That perspective explains why 48 percent of Americans believe the right to own a gun is essential for freedom. According to the Pew Center, another 33 percent believe such rights are important for freedom, not essential. Only 19 percent say that the right to own a gun is not important.
Resisting the government with guns is not realistic in the Western world for many reasons. The truth is, life as the middle class in the modern America is damn comfortable. We all complain about the government, but the "hardship" most of us endure is far from the level of desperation that would trigger armed resistance from the masses. Face it, mistrust the government or not, life is damn good for most of us. I remember watching Louis Theroux' documentary about some community in some cold American State that is leading an independent life - cars not registered, no driving licenses, armed patrols of the snowy emptiness in case "Thee Government comes and takes our rights". If the Army shows up in force, are they really going to put up armed resistance? Good luck.

As far as giving the government more power - it has all of it already, in spite of the illusion of participation in the politics some of us may have. Want to participate in politics? Set up a bank. Until then - there are plenty of things that can realistically be changed very close to home.
Last edited by Sangoma on Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by dead man walking » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:59 am

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:54 am
Resisting the government with guns is not realistic in the Western world for many reasons.
you statement assumes reason guides people's thinking. bad assumption.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Sangoma » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:03 am

I seldom say that, but you are right.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:18 pm
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:22 pm
Interesting article by pollster Scott Rasmussen regarding the gun ownership debate and trust in gov't.
Couldn't get past the title. In the wake of a terrible mass shooting, immediately claim that the Gun Control Debate is Not About Guns. Smells like horseshit.
I thought it illuminated principals held by both sides. Such understanding could facilitate reasoned respectful progress that saves a lot of lives while preserving freedoms.

Except for people who only care about the lives and oppose the freedoms. Or, those people who only care about the freedoms and ignore the lost lives.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by dead man walking » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:57 pm

fair point donkey, but from my vantage point, it seems that the extremes are so loud and absolutist that reasonable people are crowded out.

i seriously wonder: are there any rational conversations taking place among r's and d's in washington on any subject?
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Herv100 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:23 pm

Whoever did this(story changing constantly in the most surveilled city in America) didn't use a 22 caliber rifle with a bump stock(piece of shit equipment) for shooting 500 yards at night. The "crime scene" photos are comical. Like they just rounded up a bunch of "average Joe" AR's and scattered them about the room. LMAO
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by bennyonesix » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:29 am

Jfc absent young black males and mexicans US has gun violence in line with Northern Europe you dummies.

How much are we going to give up for them?

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:43 am

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:19 am
Gene wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:19 pm
Gav wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:11 pm
Gene, that's a gun every 21.5 citizens. What people from the UK, Australia etc etc don't get is your desire to have one in the first place. The average bloke over here wouldn't dream of having one and for sure doesn't need one. Why are you all so obsessed with your beloved second amendment and the consequences that arise from so many people having guns?

It's a freedom thing, Gav. One that some UK and Australians folks want too.

Why don't you ask your Canadian cousins about their gun culture? There are States in the US with tougher gun laws than in Canada.
I get the freedom thing. Where do you draw the line though? Should you be able to buy a cannon? A tank? Fighter jet? Should I be able to set up a properly armed private army? I can argue that in case of serious disaster the government and its army may not be able to defend me, so I should rather set up an airfield, acquire a few fighter jets and bombers (with bombs, of course), grenade launchers, tanks, some artillery and be ready for the unexpected.
Fighter jets and tanks are legal for civilian ownership in the US. You can buy the weapons for them if you get them on the NFA registry. The people who can afford such things rarely run around murdering other people.

Hunting feral pigs with M-16s out of a helicopter. Full auto fun.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubt19wLNcKM

Want to do it yourself? Get a hunting license and sign up here.

https://www.helibacon.com/texas-helicopter-hog-hunting/

A private army? Never heard of the Militia movement have you? The Police love those guys. They infiltrate them. I've been invited to join the Keystone Militia twice. I told them, "One in ten to one in twenty of your people are informants. Everyone else doesn't take you seriously. Why do you waste your time?". Both walked away from me.

Let's take it in the other direction. Why not ban all firearms? China did it years ago. No civilian ownership. Chinese use knives and industrial explosives to settle disputes. They have had mass stabbings in train stations and in schools. Bombings. Chinese tax police battle peasant protests with automatic firearms and tanks. I've read reports of unarmed peasants being bullied and killed by the State. (see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01542.html )

The US isn't a world leader in "gun violence". India has that distinction. Russia has bans on legal handgun ownership. So does Belarus. Both have higher per capita rates of murder than the US.

Our gun control lobby has been successful at creating a false narrative - less guns, less gun violence. There is a correlation, not causation. I live in rural Appalachia. A murder around here is a big deal. We are very heavily armed. Nobody tests my door knobs at night, Sangoma. Nobody breaks into my house. Home invasion robberies are very very rare around here.

Am I concerned about being shot? Rarely. I mind my manners.
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