gun control

Topics without replies are pruned every 365 days. Not moderated.

Moderator: Dux

Post Reply
User avatar
Hebrew Hammer
Chief Rabbi
Posts: 3348
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 11:14 pm

gun control

Post by Hebrew Hammer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:47 pm

Gun control has a lot to do with culture and in America with the second amendment. By way of contrast, Israel has very severe gun control laws. You have to be in the right occupation, have the right military rank, or live in certain areas. Permit holders are limited to owning one pistol. Those who have the permits, though, take the right seriously and you regularly read that passers by with pistols stop terrorists. Israel also has a standing army and soldiers carry their weapons off base, but for whatever reason it's the permitted pistol holders who frequently stop terrorists. Not our culture, but its one that works pretty well.
Image

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10793
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: gun control

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:13 pm

US gun laws are nutty. The attacks on the survivors are keeping this in the news.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:25 pm

I wish we'd switch the debate to gun safety.

'Control' is a loaded term.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
syaigh
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5665
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Surrounded by short irrational people

Re: gun control

Post by syaigh » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:49 pm

I wish responsible gun owners would get together and decide who deserves that title, ie, come up with some standards for owning a gun license and figure out who will be in charge of granting and monitoring those licenses. Licensing owners instead of registering their guns might keep them from feeling so threatened. And then come up with some standards and procedures for when someone needs to temporarily or permanently lose that license and their guns.
Miss Piggy wrote:Never eat more than you can lift.

Gene
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5108
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Inner Pindostan

Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:33 pm

nafod wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:25 pm
I wish we'd switch the debate to gun safety.

'Control' is a loaded term.
"gun safety" is an Orwellian term. An attempt to sanitize Oligarchical control over the masses and their means of self defense.

Some of us in flyover country, somewhat west of Nafod, prefer the term "unilateral personal disarmament". Jeff Cooper used this and it's valid.

We're always told, "The Police will protect us". How does one reconcile this bromide with the FBI failing to respond to those tips about Cruz and his aspirations for becoming a "professional school shooter"?

How about Broward County Sheriff's deputy Scot Peterson cowering outside while the shooting was going on? Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel also admitted he has two deputies on restricted duty because they did not hustle about concerns about the shooter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pa ... ng-n850441

The story just below it admits that three Sheriff's deputies were cowering outside.
While the reason they remained outside is currently unclear, experts say it's highly unusual for a police officer to stay on the sidelines of an active shooting scene and not try to neutralize the threat.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/th ... ng-n850946



Nope, let's not let this crisis go to waste.... we could get some of Mike Bloomberg's wish list implemented, right?
This space for let

Yes, I'm drunk
Top
Posts: 2194
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:57 am

Re: gun control

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:59 pm

One of the things that most fascinated me about the homosexual marriage debate was just how quickly a tiny group of "opinion formers" could get vast swathes of the western world to accept men marrying other men as not just OK and reasonable, but somewhat inevitable.

The "opinion formers" are good at what they do, and, if needs be, operate on generational timescales. The socialist Fabian Society in Britain is a good example of this approach in action.

I said a few years back on here that the US would surrender to the anti-gun lobby, probably within my own lifetime. And that prediction looks well on track to be correct.

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:42 pm

Gene wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:33 pm
nafod wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:25 pm
I wish we'd switch the debate to gun safety.

'Control' is a loaded term.
"gun safety" is an Orwellian term. An attempt to sanitize Oligarchical control over the masses and their means of self defense.

Some of us in flyover country, somewhat west of Nafod, prefer the term "unilateral personal disarmament".
Geebus, I just am tired of children getting gunned down by nutcases with ARs. These are terror attacks, just by white dudes instead of muslims. Otherwise, Beslam Massacre territory. Hug and cradle your handguns all you want, SCOTUS says you can. They also say there are limits, i.e, ARs.
How about Broward County Sheriff's deputy Scot Peterson cowering outside while the shooting was going on? Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel also admitted he has two deputies on restricted duty because they did not hustle about concerns about the shooter.
That's not a rousing endorsement for expecting anyone to run into a space where some dude with AR15 awaits, if these theoretically trained and prepared folks hesitated.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5513
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: gun control

Post by Bram » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:20 pm

Restrict the congressional ban on studying gun violence and come up with some common sense adjustments based on the findings.

Worked for cars with seat belts, air bags, massive drunk driving fines and texting while driving fines.
"Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there its sits nevertheless, calmly licking its chops." - H.L. Mencken

dead man walking
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6797
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm

Re: gun control

Post by dead man walking » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:04 pm

"take their guns away first and worry about due process after"

that's your guy.
Really Big Strong Guy: There are a plethora of psychopaths among us.

Gene
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5108
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Inner Pindostan

Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:16 am

nafod wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:42 pm
Geebus, I just am tired of children getting gunned down by nutcases with ARs. These are terror attacks, just by white dudes instead of muslims. Otherwise, Beslam Massacre territory. Hug and cradle your handguns all you want, SCOTUS says you can. They also say there are limits, i.e, ARs.
The SCOTUS has never ruled on military pattern semiautomatic firearms. They denied certiori on Maryland's ban, which left only the region covered by the 2nd Court of appeals.

About twenty times more people die from wounds from handguns than from military pattern firearms. I think it's reasonable to assume that once the Elitists have "banned" them and registered the rest in the NFA database that "Handguns are next". The creator of this horseshit, Josh Sugarmann, more or less said as much, "pretend machineguns are easier to ban than handguns. Once we got a precedent the rest follows".

The Beslan Massacre was performed by trained operators using full automatic firearms and military explosives in a nation that tightly restricts handguns and automatic firearms but lets people own shotguns. You're not going to repeat that bullshit about an M4 and AR15 being the "same rifle" again, are you? I realize that you're feeling the passion but the demagoguery is a bit much. The difference between an AR15 and a M4 is 10 years in a Federal prison and a $100,000 fine under NFA regs. Clear enough?

I know that your Gabby Giffords heroes, McChrystal and Patraeus, are on the case. They both ran counter insurgency operations including death squads. Kind of like the founder of National Coalition to Ban Handguns, William Colby. Colby was tied up in Operation Phoenix. Nice bunch of people you roll with, Nafod.
nafod wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:42 pm
How about Broward County Sheriff's deputy Scot Peterson cowering outside while the shooting was going on? Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel also admitted he has two deputies on restricted duty because they did not hustle about concerns about the shooter.
That's not a rousing endorsement for expecting anyone to run into a space where some dude with AR15 awaits, if these theoretically trained and prepared folks hesitated.
The School Resource officer saw the kid, identified him, and only saw a "black duffel bag". Was he close enough to affect an arrest without being shot? Did he at least ask the kid, who he knew was a troubled student, to get the hell away from the school?

Apparently his inaction bothered him - he resigned from the Sheriff's department. A person who felt unjustly condemned would do more than give an interview.

Here is the deputies's arrest report - https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation ... story.html

Coral Gables PD went in, complained that four Broward County Deputies did not go in. "The report states that when Coral Springs police officers arrived on the scene, the four deputies were crouched behind their vehicles with their guns drawn and had not yet entered the school.

With some direction from the deputies, the Coral Springs officers entered the school. A new group of Broward County deputies also arrived, and two of them joined the Coral Springs officers in the school, along with an officer from Sunrise, Florida."

http://dailycaller.com/2018/02/23/four- ... n-douglas/

The FBI and Broward County Sheriff's were called on this kid. Two of Broward's finest are on restricted duty pending investigation. The FBI was called on this kid after he posted violent shit on social media.

Police failed to prevent this crime. Police failed to respond to this crime. Police caught the kid later. Somehow this is the NRA's fault?


This whole fiasco is an advertisement to buy and train with firearms. Apparently when seconds count and the Police are hiding outside while you're being shot at, you better help yourself.
Last edited by Gene on Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
This space for let

Gene
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5108
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Inner Pindostan

Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:18 am

dead man walking wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:04 pm
"take their guns away first and worry about due process after"

that's your guy.
I voted for Gary Johnson. Who did you vote for? Let me guess - she was a Wall Street Corporate whore who sported a lightly used vagina, earned $255,000 in a few hours but still pretended to understand "Common People"? Am I right, or did you stay home because Bernie got bullied into silence?

There are a lot of people pissed off at Trump right now. The remarks about denying Due Process and the right to face one's accuser should matter to everyone. Should have mattered when Civil Forfeiture was first "legalized" in the late 1970s too.
This space for let

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:26 am

You're not going to repeat that bullshit about an M4 and AR15 being the "same rifle" again, are you?
You're not going to try to convince me that there is difference between them of any meaningful distinction, are you?

The AR15 used in Parkland would have been a one-for-one swap with the M16A2 I deployed with, for every single mission I was trained for and how I was trained to use it, period. Or with an M4 if they had given me that. Perfect swap.

Convoy protection, day/night fire, room clearing, rapid response drills, assault.

It would have probably been better, since it wouldn't have already had tens of thousands of rounds pumped through it prior to my grubby fingers getting it.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Yes I Have Balls
Top
Posts: 2431
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:05 pm
Location: Wherever they's a fight so hungry people can eat

Re: gun control

Post by Yes I Have Balls » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:57 pm

In the wake of the Parkland shootings, the Florida legislature (led by GOP Governor Rick Scott) wants to arm teachers. They want to run these teachers through a comprehensive background check, mental health screening, drug testing and 130 hours of weapons training.

So, tell me again why this standard isn't applied to EVERYONE that buys a gun?

climber511
Gunny
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: gun control

Post by climber511 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:09 pm

I think we have to be VERY careful arming teachers - not sure how many teachers signed up to be armed guards. A better solution might be to put a congressman's kid in every school - I bet that would give a lot better protection to them. You can't enter a building in DC without a screening and guards everywhere

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37750
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: gun control

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:41 pm

Yes, we should all look to Israel as a functional model for American society. :rolleyes:

Please open your mouth so I can shit in it.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7815
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: gun control

Post by johno » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:19 pm

nafod wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:26 am
You're not going to repeat that bullshit about an M4 and AR15 being the "same rifle" again, are you?
You're not going to try to convince me that there is difference between them of any meaningful distinction, are you?
OK, Mr. Gun Expert, who refuses to acknowledge the difference between select fire/automatic and semi-automatic: Nut up and make a specific proposal.

Ban all rifles with pistol grips and bayonet lugs? Or all black rifles?

Ban all .223/5.56? Or larger?

Ban all box magazines?
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21084
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: gun control

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:43 pm

I think it's pretty fantastic the kids from Parkview are getting threatened and people are putting their heads on shooting targets and putting it on twitter. Fantastic display of class and maturity

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21084
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: gun control

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:46 pm

dumbshooter.jpg
dumbshooter.jpg (88.08 KiB) Viewed 2420 times
yeah, ok, the Hogg kid wasn't actually at the school when it happened, but...the sentiment is imbecilic

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7815
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: gun control

Post by johno » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:43 pm
I think it's pretty fantastic the kids from Parkview are getting threatened and people are putting their heads on shooting targets and putting it on twitter. Fantastic display of class and maturity
Unless you think this is preparatory to Hogg's murder, it's understandable.

Most of the Media has allowed select Parkland students to say any Anti Gun thing that crosses their minds, with virtually no counterbalance or challenge. Gun owners rightfully feel vilified. A few will punch back, symbolically & childishly.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:06 pm

johno wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:19 pm
nafod wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:26 am
You're not going to repeat that bullshit about an M4 and AR15 being the "same rifle" again, are you?
You're not going to try to convince me that there is difference between them of any meaningful distinction, are you?
OK, Mr. Gun Expert, who refuses to acknowledge the difference between select fire/automatic and semi-automatic:
I fully acknowledge the mechanical difference between them. From a standpoint of going into a school and killing children, I say they are no different.

In fact, I bet if he had a full auto and used it, he'd spray more rounds into the walls instead of people, overkill many of his targets, and hopefully jam his weapon and have someone beat him to death while he tries to clear it.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7815
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: gun control

Post by johno » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:51 pm

OK, Mr. Gun Expert, who refuses to acknowledge the difference between select fire/automatic and semi-automatic: Nut up and make a specific proposal.

You would make full-auto rifles mandatory because they are so ineffective?

Seriously, do you have have something in mind? Or do you just want to shout at the clouds, "NEVER AGAIN"?
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 pm

johno wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:51 pm
OK, Mr. Gun Expert, who refuses to acknowledge the difference between select fire/automatic and semi-automatic: Nut up and make a specific proposal.

You would make full-auto rifles mandatory because they are so ineffective?

Seriously, do you have have something in mind? Or do you just want to shout at the clouds, "NEVER AGAIN"?
I've posted answers before, at which time, the AR supporters take their "pot shots". Now it is your turn.


Eventually the public is going to tire of these mass shootings and laws are going to be passed. They just are. Whatever those laws are. They are coming. Even if it takes another few hundred school children and mall goers to die.

So speaking of nutting up, this is your chance to get out in front of the wave and attempt to suggest ideas on how to reduce the frequency and severity of the events. The NRA has its people in the executive and both houses of the legislative at the moment. The burden is on them/you to bring about some changes, in order to keep control. Sitting back and saying 'no' to everyone else's suggestions while the mass shootings go on isn't going to cut it.

Lead or get out of the way, in short.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7815
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: gun control

Post by johno » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:59 pm

You're proposing a change, so say it. Those are the rules of grown up discussion.

I'm not digging through your posts to ferret out your thoughts.

But since you're an enthusiast of research, check out the broad variety of weapons used in mass killings, from Columbine on. Unless you propose a ban & confiscation of semi-auto pistols, rifles, and pump shotguns, you are just attacking the cosmetics of the Black Rifle.

******

And while we're dwelling in Good Idea Land, unimpeded by Constitutional restraints, let's restrict media coverage of mass shootings to a 24 hour period, and never mention the killers' names or body counts. Many of them are obsessed with gaining infamy through Body Count. And motivated by it.

"If it saves one life..."
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

JimZipCode
Top
Posts: 1393
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: gun control

Post by JimZipCode » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm

nafod wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 pm
Eventually the public is going to tire of these mass shootings and laws are going to be passed. They just are. Whatever those laws are. They are coming. Even if it takes ...
I mean honestly, if the kids continue to be effective at mobilizing and motivating and a wave grows, the Second Amendment itself could eventually go away. There have been constitutional amendments before.

My first boss post-college told me something very seriously: "Abuse leads to restriction". Gun Rights Advocates are on the wrong side of this, so long as they maintain a "give an inch and they'll take a mile" attitude. If they were proactive in suggesting something, maybe along the lines of Syaigh's comments, that would help defuse the wave rather than escalate.
“War is the remedy our enemies have chosen. Other simple remedies were within their choice. You know it and they know it, but they wanted war, and I say let us give them all they want.”
― William Tecumseh Sherman

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7815
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: gun control

Post by johno » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm
if the kids continue to be effective at mobilizing and motivating and a wave grows.

Yes. Those amazing kids. Uncanny how they all agree, and speak with one voice.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

Post Reply