Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 am

Someone getting "money for nothing" always gets a strong reaction from the public. But looking a little deeper makes this fallacy very clear.
Money given to migrants and refugees come back to the economy very quickly. Sure, they don't pay taxes (for a while at least), but the money they get goes back into the economy: refugees buy food, clothes, use public transport etc. Most migrants find a job (or two) and work their asses off to build better future for their children. The math is simple: more people - bigger economy, more goods and services sold. There are a few studies that looked into the economic impact of migrants and refugees, most of them report overall benefit.

Migrants and refugees are good for economies
To assess nations’ economic well-being, the researchers measured average incomes over the years by dividing a country’s gross domestic product (GDP) by the size of its population. They also calculated a variable called fiscal balance, which subtracts the amount of money a country spent on public programmes, such as welfare, from the amount of money raised through taxes.

The model suggests that within two years of an influx of migrants, unemployment rates drop significantly and economic health increases (see ‘The economics of migration’).
Asylum seekers also benefit economies, but their effects take longer to transpire — from three to seven years — and the boon is less obvious. Unlike migrants, people seeking refuge often face restrictions on working, and must move to another country if their applications for permanent residency are denied.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:56 am

Though I am a little confused: when did Dalai Lama say this? There is a similar reference from 2016.

Dalai Lama says there are 'too many refugees in Europe'
Max Bearak
Wednesday 1 June 2016 08:13
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Turdacious » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 am
Someone getting "money for nothing" always gets a strong reaction from the public. But looking a little deeper makes this fallacy very clear.
Money given to migrants and refugees come back to the economy very quickly. Sure, they don't pay taxes (for a while at least), but the money they get goes back into the economy: refugees buy food, clothes, use public transport etc. Most migrants find a job (or two) and work their asses off to build better future for their children. The math is simple: more people - bigger economy, more goods and services sold. There are a few studies that looked into the economic impact of migrants and refugees, most of them report overall benefit.

Migrants and refugees are good for economies
To assess nations’ economic well-being, the researchers measured average incomes over the years by dividing a country’s gross domestic product (GDP) by the size of its population. They also calculated a variable called fiscal balance, which subtracts the amount of money a country spent on public programmes, such as welfare, from the amount of money raised through taxes.

The model suggests that within two years of an influx of migrants, unemployment rates drop significantly and economic health increases (see ‘The economics of migration’).
Asylum seekers also benefit economies, but their effects take longer to transpire — from three to seven years — and the boon is less obvious. Unlike migrants, people seeking refuge often face restrictions on working, and must move to another country if their applications for permanent residency are denied.
I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that study for several reasons which are very important to this debate.
1. The study primarily looks at controlled flows of immigration rather than large scale immigration shocks (like France experienced at the conclusion of the Algerian War-- the immigrant groups were not well integrated into French society or the French economy). The immigration flows following the war in the Balkans was relatively small scale while the post 2015 flow of migrants/asylum seekers is comparatively larger. Size matters.
2. It doesn't look at the impact on low skilled labor-- migration hurts the wages of low skilled labor (native or migrant). (a good summary of the American debate on points one and two is here.) The impact is often hard to quantify because low skill labor is often done in the informal economy. Low wage native labor is normally very sensitive to even small changes because it effects their livelihood. I would imagine that modest changes in their voting patterns have big impacts on the composition of parliamentary coalitions.
3. They are looking at a sustained economic boom period, largely impacted by a booming US economy and the winding down of the Cold War (both external factors).
4. Not all migrant groups are equal-- some integrate into society better than others.
5. The social welfare and integration costs required for migrants, even if short term, are coming at a time when European coffers are under strain-- especially with the EU financial crisises.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by SubClaw » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:40 am

It's not about immigration, but the "quality" of the immigrants.

I fail to see why anyone would object to Sangoma (or any other respected professional who is willing to integrate) migrating to their country. But I can see rather clearly why anyone would (and should) object to provide shelter, food, health services and education to people who won't contribute before several generations have passed.

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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:49 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 am
Someone getting "money for nothing" always gets a strong reaction from the public. But looking a little deeper makes this fallacy very clear.
Money given to migrants and refugees come back to the economy very quickly. Sure, they don't pay taxes (for a while at least), but the money they get goes back into the economy: refugees buy food, clothes, use public transport etc. Most migrants find a job (or two) and work their asses off to build better future for their children. The math is simple: more people - bigger economy, more goods and services sold. There are a few studies that looked into the economic impact of migrants and refugees, most of them report overall benefit.

Migrants and refugees are good for economies
To assess nations’ economic well-being, the researchers measured average incomes over the years by dividing a country’s gross domestic product (GDP) by the size of its population. They also calculated a variable called fiscal balance, which subtracts the amount of money a country spent on public programmes, such as welfare, from the amount of money raised through taxes.

The model suggests that within two years of an influx of migrants, unemployment rates drop significantly and economic health increases (see ‘The economics of migration’).
Asylum seekers also benefit economies, but their effects take longer to transpire — from three to seven years — and the boon is less obvious. Unlike migrants, people seeking refuge often face restrictions on working, and must move to another country if their applications for permanent residency are denied.
If you look at the article you linked, you will not have to extend yourself to see that the current situation and the ones which led to the analysis' conclusions are almost entirely different.

In the analysis, they were looking at controlled migration from 1985 to 2015, mostly from non-EU European countries. The numbers of migrants were much lower, and were also much lower in proportion to their host countries. They also occurred over a much longer time frame, not a sudden tidal wave. It is not difficult to believe that a well educated person from Croatia is a net benefit if they emigrate to Sweden. It is much more difficult to believe that a gang of Somali tribesman represents that same gift to Western Europe.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:56 am
Though I am a little confused: when did Dalai Lama say this? There is a similar reference from 2016.

Dalai Lama says there are 'too many refugees in Europe'
Max Bearak
Wednesday 1 June 2016 08:13
What does it matter? He's saying the same thing Brennus the Gaul told the Romans in 390 BC: vae victis.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:00 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:40 am
But I can see rather clearly why anyone would (and should) object to provide shelter, food, health services and education to people who won't contribute before several generations have passed.
What makes you think it would take several generations? Evidence shows second-generation kids outperform their peers.

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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:54 pm

You guys are talking about two different things. One is legal, orderly, managed immigration at reasonable levels and with reasonable (not "extreme") levels of vetting. The other is what we've seen since 2015; a tidal wave of violent, uneducated, undesirables inflicting themselves on Europe.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:25 am

Lately I am reluctant to engage in arguments, because issues are way more complicated than what we get from catchy newspaper headlines. To get the proper picture one has to get through a lot of data. If you take Germany, for example, the country with the highest (correct me if I am wrong) influx of immigrants and refugees, crime rate in Germany is the lowest since 1992. Violent crime, which jumped up 6.7 percent in 2016, dropped 2.5 percent at 2018. Not a reversal, but a positive trend. Burglaries dropped by 20 percent, and apparently politically motivated crime dropped as well. At the same time, I think mostly thanks to newspapers and TV news, Germans feel less safe.

Of course, overall crime stats don't tell the whole story, and a lot of crime goes undetected. This article gives a nice overview:

What we learned from this year’s crime statistics… and what we didn’t

I had a quick look at crime in Italy, the country that was getting a lot of refugees from Libya, and the raw data shows overall downward trend:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/614 ... cts-italy/

Again, to make any kind of generalised claim one has to look at very detailed crime stats in every relevant country. However, a quick look at stats shows the picture that's very different from what the news show. This is not new, and news will always paint darker reality than it is.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am

Back to Dalai Lama's comments. I am surprised this kind of talk is coming from the Buddhist leader. Buddhist proposes that everything and everyone is part of the whole, so that even our ego is one big illusion. This is the cornerstone of one of the fundamental Buddhist texts, The Diamond Sutra. The last thing I would expect to hear from a Buddhist is the call to promote separation. His statement is laughable at its basic premise: what are refugees' "own" countries? Territories demarcated by the lines drawn by Mark and Francois? I allow myself familiarity in the same spirit as these two when they decided to chop up the Middle East in 1916.

I am not sure why FC believes that the current wave of refugees consists of the "violent, uneducated, undesirables". Most people don't leave the country unless there is a good reason to. Sure, lots of them will be jobless for a long time, but eventually market forces will sort themselves out.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Turdacious » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am
Back to Dalai Lama's comments. I am surprised this kind of talk is coming from the Buddhist leader. Buddhist proposes that everything and everyone is part of the whole, so that even our ego is one big illusion. This is the cornerstone of one of the fundamental Buddhist texts, The Diamond Sutra. The last thing I would expect to hear from a Buddhist is the call to promote separation. His statement is laughable at its basic premise: what are refugees' "own" countries? Territories demarcated by the lines drawn by Mark and Francois? I allow myself familiarity in the same spirit as these two when they decided to chop up the Middle East in 1916.
You're also missing the kind of immigration the Dalai Lama is most concerned with (he is Tibetan after all). It's something more akin to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... viet_Union
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by nafod » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:48 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am
Back to Dalai Lama's comments. I am surprised this kind of talk is coming from the Buddhist leader. Buddhist proposes that everything and everyone is part of the whole, so that even our ego is one big illusion. This is the cornerstone of one of the fundamental Buddhist texts, The Diamond Sutra. The last thing I would expect to hear from a Buddhist is the call to promote separation. His statement is laughable at its basic premise: what are refugees' "own" countries? Territories demarcated by the lines drawn by Mark and Francois? I allow myself familiarity in the same spirit as these two when they decided to chop up the Middle East in 1916.
You're also missing the kind of immigration the Dalai Lama is most concerned with (he is Tibetan after all). It's something more akin to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... viet_Union
Yeah, the Chinese pouring into Tibet aren't refugees, they are invaders.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:04 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:00 pm
SubClaw wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:40 am
But I can see rather clearly why anyone would (and should) object to provide shelter, food, health services and education to people who won't contribute before several generations have passed.
What makes you think it would take several generations? Evidence shows second-generation kids outperform their peers.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Seems only certain types of second gen kids outperform their peers. Why? Typically their parents appreciate the benefits the new country offers, and they have high expectations that are not weighed down by religion and culture. It may have to do with professional status. Refugees typically are living off government benefits. Non-refugees are often go through the process of citizenship while working on a visa, or their kids are born in the country and naturalized. Two very different situations.

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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:42 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am
I am not sure why FC believes that the current wave of refugees consists of the "violent, uneducated, undesirables". Most people don't leave the country unless there is a good reason to. Sure, lots of them will be jobless for a long time, but eventually market forces will sort themselves out.
Entering a country illegally is a form of violence. It is also a form of criminality which automatically makes you undesirable. So will their "jobless for a long time" status. And there is no basis for your magical thinking statement that somehow divine market forces will be the panacea that makes everything OK. Meanwhile, terrorism, rape, cliterectomies, and shariah law.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:51 pm

Also, why is this Europe's responsibility and not China's? Or Japan's? Or Indonesia's? How many immigrants is Russia taking? Why is it only the burden of Western Europe, America, and Canada?
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:25 pm

And once again, I must emphasize that I am not saying that a country shouldn't accept immigrants from wherever they want, of any race or creed they want, and that those people can't make wonderful contributions. I am solely addressing massive illegal immigration.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:02 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:42 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am
I am not sure why FC believes that the current wave of refugees consists of the "violent, uneducated, undesirables". Most people don't leave the country unless there is a good reason to. Sure, lots of them will be jobless for a long time, but eventually market forces will sort themselves out.
Entering a country illegally is a form of violence. It is also a form of criminality which automatically makes you undesirable. So will their "jobless for a long time" status. And there is no basis for your magical thinking statement that somehow divine market forces will be the panacea that makes everything OK. Meanwhile, terrorism, rape, cliterectomies, and shariah law.
I was an illegal immigrant in South Africa for a few months: my tourist visa expired, and there was no way to legalise myself at the time. Once I had to evade the police raid on the block of flats where a lot of immigrants were staying. Mind you, I wasn't running from a war, so I can only imagine what lengths people will go to in order to save their families.

Miraculous or not market forces work. These folks will spend the money handed over to them, and this will increase overall spending, which eventually leads to improving the economy. As for terrorism, rape and clitorectomies - as per my earlier post this seems to be a myth, and crime in Europe is actually going down.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:27 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am
Back to Dalai Lama's comments. I am surprised this kind of talk is coming from the Buddhist leader. Buddhist proposes that everything and everyone is part of the whole, so that even our ego is one big illusion. This is the cornerstone of one of the fundamental Buddhist texts, The Diamond Sutra. The last thing I would expect to hear from a Buddhist is the call to promote separation. His statement is laughable at its basic premise: what are refugees' "own" countries? Territories demarcated by the lines drawn by Mark and Francois? I allow myself familiarity in the same spirit as these two when they decided to chop up the Middle East in 1916.
You're also missing the kind of immigration the Dalai Lama is most concerned with (he is Tibetan after all). It's something more akin to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... viet_Union
European crisis: illegal immigrants run away from the war zones and enter European country illegally. USSR population transfer: the government forcefully moves various ethnic groups to different regions of the country. I must have missed the analogy - mind to explain? Tibet was taken by the Chinese via military intervention, how is this related to Europe?
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Also, why is this Europe's responsibility and not China's? Or Japan's? Or Indonesia's? How many immigrants is Russia taking? Why is it only the burden of Western Europe, America, and Canada?
USA and Europe are playing the freedom and democracy game, and have to display "moral obligation" to the world. China, Indonesia and Japan didn't send their armies to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria and haven't meddled in the politics of the region for decades. Nobody ever said that Europe must take refugees, and so every European country has the right to close its borders and build one big fence.

Russian economy is not doing well at all and is barely coping with the country's own problems, and with the existing sanctions it is unreasonable to expect that it will cooperate with the developed world on the issue.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:17 am

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:37 pm
Russian economy is not doing well at all and is barely coping with the country's own problems, and with the existing sanctions it is unreasonable to expect that it will cooperate with the developed world on the issue.
Wait a moment, friend. Russia most certainly has been active in some of the countries you note, and according to your statistical analysis, could only benefit from a tide of unwashed, unskilled, unfriendly illegal immigrants. It's also, you'll note, a lot closer to Afghanistan and Syria than we are. Let them receive this great benefit. You have convinced me.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Turdacious » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:57 am

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:27 pm
Turdacious wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 am
Back to Dalai Lama's comments. I am surprised this kind of talk is coming from the Buddhist leader. Buddhist proposes that everything and everyone is part of the whole, so that even our ego is one big illusion. This is the cornerstone of one of the fundamental Buddhist texts, The Diamond Sutra. The last thing I would expect to hear from a Buddhist is the call to promote separation. His statement is laughable at its basic premise: what are refugees' "own" countries? Territories demarcated by the lines drawn by Mark and Francois? I allow myself familiarity in the same spirit as these two when they decided to chop up the Middle East in 1916.
You're also missing the kind of immigration the Dalai Lama is most concerned with (he is Tibetan after all). It's something more akin to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... viet_Union
European crisis: illegal immigrants run away from the war zones and enter European country illegally. USSR population transfer: the government forcefully moves various ethnic groups to different regions of the country. I must have missed the analogy - mind to explain? Tibet was taken by the Chinese via military intervention, how is this related to Europe?
I'm saying that in the Dalai Lama's world, forced migration at state insistence to enforce political ends is the reality, as it was in the former USSR (as you point out). Expecting him not to be influenced by this, especially considering the persecution that Tibetans have faced under ChiCom rule, doesn't seem realistic. Another factor is that the Buddhist and ChiCom worldviews, especially when colored by Chinese ideas of 'rightful' dominance and racial superiority, are fundamentally different and have never coexisted effectively-- if the Dalai Lama sees parallels between this and what's happening in Europe, there's a lot under the surface to look at. A lot more than can be gleaned from a t-shirt worthy aphorism anyway.

He may be enlightened, but he's still a Tibetan; if the suffering he and his people have endured didn't effect him and his thinking at least a little, he wouldn't be much of a man IMHO.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Turdacious » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:13 am

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:37 pm
Russian economy is not doing well at all and is barely coping with the country's own problems, and with the existing sanctions it is unreasonable to expect that it will cooperate with the developed world on the issue.
Agree-- Russia's dealing with very different issues, and migrants from different countries.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... viet-roots
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:28 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:17 am
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:37 pm
Russian economy is not doing well at all and is barely coping with the country's own problems, and with the existing sanctions it is unreasonable to expect that it will cooperate with the developed world on the issue.
Wait a moment, friend. Russia most certainly has been active in some of the countries you note, and according to your statistical analysis, could only benefit from a tide of unwashed, unskilled, unfriendly illegal immigrants. It's also, you'll note, a lot closer to Afghanistan and Syria than we are. Let them receive this great benefit. You have convinced me.
Benefits of human influx take time to come through, and in the meantime you need resources to deal with immigration. You do need to give these people money and shelter while things get adjusted. You do need money for that. Besides, a program to incorporate refugees into the workforce is easier to implement in Germany (for example) than in Russia, corruption being a serious problem in the latter.

But then again, this is my mental gymnastic, not something I have deep knowledge of. So why not, if the European and North American powers can force Russia - indeed the active player in the region - to accommodate its share of refugees I think it's more than fair.
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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Sangoma » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:30 am

Turdacious wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:57 am

I'm saying that in the Dalai Lama's world, forced migration at state insistence to enforce political ends is the reality, as it was in the former USSR (as you point out). Expecting him not to be influenced by this, especially considering the persecution that Tibetans have faced under ChiCom rule, doesn't seem realistic. Another factor is that the Buddhist and ChiCom worldviews, especially when colored by Chinese ideas of 'rightful' dominance and racial superiority, are fundamentally different and have never coexisted effectively-- if the Dalai Lama sees parallels between this and what's happening in Europe, there's a lot under the surface to look at. A lot more than can be gleaned from a t-shirt worthy aphorism anyway.

He may be enlightened, but he's still a Tibetan; if the suffering he and his people have endured didn't effect him and his thinking at least a little, he wouldn't be much of a man IMHO.
Your logic is twisted, to say the least. But never mind. As I said, it takes time and effort to get to the roots of any problem. When you start digging past the traditional adage of "peaceful Tibet occupied by vicious Chinese" it becomes clear that the issue is more complex, and Dalai Lama himself is not the kindly leader of peace, but a dictator in exile. In this light his remark "they should go to their own country" makes sense, and the title of the thread is not as outrageous as it may seem.

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Re: Dalai Lama = Literally Hitler

Post by Bobby » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:07 am

The crime rate here in Sweden (murders,using handgrenades,shootings sexual assaults and burning cars etc) has risen noticeaby the last 3-4 years.I don`t like my wife going into Uppsala in the late afternoon by herself anymore.Didn`t use to be this way.I don`t trust all those statistics that tires to show that crime rates in the countries in Europe has fallen the last years.Think that the people that has an interest in receiving migrants doctor the statistics.As some have written above I haven`t noticed any benefits for our society from the last 4-8 years influx of people from the muslim countries and I fear for the future as state television and most newspapers employ left leaning journalists.I guess you have to live here in northern/western Europe to see what a mess we are becoming as societies.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

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