What to make of the election?

Topics without replies are pruned every 365 days. Not moderated.

Moderator: Dux

Post Reply
User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:08 pm

nafod wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:36 pm
right wing death squad
That has to be a heavy metal band name
Image
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:41 pm

johno wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:02 pm
nafod wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:57 pm
Just as the Mueller Investigation put the lie to the Russian Collusion charge against Trump...
Collusion is not a crime. It is not a legal thing.
nafod wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:58 pm

I trust that there are enough people in the justice department that take their oath to the constitution (and not to the President) seriously, so that if there is real dirt of collusion or other crimes, it will come out.

Your term, not mine. But, to buy into your quibble, no proof of conspiracy.

Back to Real Life and the Durham investigation: Do you agree that IF the DOJ or FBI knowingly misled the FISA court to surveil/spy on the Trump campaign or administration, criminal charges should be pursued?
Sure, I’m fine with it.

That in no way absolves Trump of anything, from his eagerness and willingness to collude, to his never-ending obstruction.

The whole FISA thing is going to be a red herring. Four different FISA court judges approved or renewed the warrants. Think they like getting hoodwinked? Yet not a peep from the Article III branch of the government.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7839
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by johno » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:56 am

nafod wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:41 pm
The whole FISA thing is going to be a red herring. Four different FISA court judges approved or renewed the warrants. Think they like getting hoodwinked? Yet not a peep from the Article III branch of the government.

Judges, and I assume especially FISA judges, are not known for being chatty outside of court. We'll see what the Durham Investigation produces.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:58 am

You don't think they talk to each other? By the time of the 4th FISA warrant, this stuff was news. That suggests Judge #4 was likely to give this all some serious scrutiny.

Really, do you trust Trump and what he says about all this?
Don’t believe everything you think.

Gene
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5177
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Inner Pindostan

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Gene » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:25 pm

nafod wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:58 am
You don't think they talk to each other? By the time of the 4th FISA warrant, this stuff was news. That suggests Judge #4 was likely to give this all some serious scrutiny.
The architects of the Bay of Pigs invasion convinced one another that the Cuban people would rise up against Castro. Basing things upon the successes of the Guatemalan coup against Arbenz.

They ignored the differences - that the US had insiders in place in the Guatemalan military while most of the hard core US supporters in the Cuban military had run away. That the Cuban people were tired of insurrections and many felt that Castro gave them a better deal than Batista ever offered to them.

Castro didn't get strongly Marxist-Leninist until after the Cuban Missile Crisis. His nationalizations of foreign assets were popular. US interests owned the Cuban telephone system, their only refinery and most of their sugar plantations. Castro represented hope for many who got nothing under Batista.

Even the invasion itself was influenced by collective foolishness. The final area that the planners chose for invasion, Playa Giron, was dirt poor. People lived making charcoal. Castro showered them with new development. To them he was a hero. Giron was surrounded by swamps far away from the traditional home of Cuban insurgents, the Escambray Mountains.

The original invasion site, Trindad, was politically suspicious of Castro. Sat on the foot of the Escambray Mountains. Had and still has a nice big air field.

Due to political reasons the planners shifted from invasion to Playa Giron. They talked to each other, said "Yeah, this will work". Extra weapons were sent to Playa Giron, I guess to be transported by what across dozens of miles of swamp land? Had they gone to Trinidad there were roads right into the mountains.

The Cuban military had to comb through the Escamabray mountains until the mid 1960s to get all of the rebels out. The original plan might have worked, worked better if the US could let go of its colonial possessions.

As I recall an after action plan of the Bay Pigs showed a lot of "group think". People pepped each other up, hoped to each other, lied to each other.

Perhaps we are seeing the same thing amongst the people who suspected Trump. He was an unknown to them. He referred to all them as "the Swamp". He campaigned against them and their peers in the Federal bureaucracies.

Clinton was a good soldier while Sec of State. She was a good Senator too. The money behind her liked her. Most of the people inside of the beltway, including this bunch probably liked her. She was an Obama appointee. The bureaucracy did well under Obama, with his pen and phone. Them against the forces of reaction. Gina McCarthy alone was going to reshape the US economy under the guise of controlling Climate Change.

Groupthink accounts for a lot of bureaucratic messes. This may have been a real case of "good versus evil" to the insiders who reviewed these documents and approved these warrants.

Look at the transcripts between Strzok and Lisa Page. Good versus evil. Combine this with power and a "need to know" and anything is possible.
nafod wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:58 am
Really, do you trust Trump and what he says about all this?
When he and Clinton ran in 2016 I referred to the election as "Alien vs Predator - no matter who wins, we lose".

Trump has become a swamp creature. He makes war upon others. He spends lavishly. He pisses off fly over country. He got a taste of real power. He's decaying into a swamp creature.

It's going to take an Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez or Elizabeth Warren to make him seem reasonable to those of us in flyover country.
This space for let

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:24 pm

Trump holds back $250M in aid voted on by congress in order to extort foreign country to attack his political opponent.

Trump supporters must be so proud.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10994
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:09 pm

GOP senators awfully quiet the last few days.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

User avatar
Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 20697
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Turdacious » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:02 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:24 pm
Trump holds back $250M in aid voted on by congress in order to extort foreign country to attack his political opponent.

Trump supporters must be so proud.
It's hardly new, it's just usually done in a way that will withstand a court challenge.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/42864123?s ... b_contents
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:30 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:02 pm
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:24 pm
Trump holds back $250M in aid voted on by congress in order to extort foreign country to attack his political opponent.

Trump supporters must be so proud.
It's hardly new, it's just usually done in a way that will withstand a court challenge.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/42864123?s ... b_contents
There's nothing in that paper you cited that relates to what Trump is doing.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 20697
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Turdacious » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:48 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:30 pm
Turdacious wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:02 pm
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:24 pm
Trump holds back $250M in aid voted on by congress in order to extort foreign country to attack his political opponent.

Trump supporters must be so proud.
It's hardly new, it's just usually done in a way that will withstand a court challenge.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/42864123?s ... b_contents
There's nothing in that paper you cited that relates to what Trump is doing.
You mean neither of them did things that would make their toughest polling general election opponent do better during the primary campaign? You've got me there.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:37 pm

That’s correct, nothing in the paper speaks to using foreign aid to enable an attack on a political opponent.

In fact, what the paper says is that there was not that much difference between Obama and Bush with respect to foreign aid.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:57 pm

Yes and that they both used it as a tool of manipulation. So here we are.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:34 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:57 pm
Yes and that they both used it as a tool of manipulation. So here we are.
Not to manipulate our elections. Not like what Trump is doing, which is more of what he did in 2016.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:55 am

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:34 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:57 pm
Yes and that they both used it as a tool of manipulation. So here we are.
Not to manipulate our elections. Not like what Trump is doing, which is more of what he did in 2016.
It depends. You're assuming a lot about what was said.

I'm curious to see what the transcripts say too, but not because I give a fuck about Biden or fairness. Was it fair when the hooknosed viragos at the DNC ratfucked Bernie to ensure that Hillary got the nomination? No? But it didn't stop you for voting for her, right? Fairness isn't your worry. You feel viscerally threatened by Trump because he doesn't care about palliative niceties or gay norms. To me I find it refreshing even though the man is an obvious turd at the most basic level.

For the sake of conversation: let's say that Trump did pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden and his alleged corruption and influence peddling. Is that manipulating our elections? Or is that just classic dirt-digging? You tell me.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:08 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:55 am
For the sake of conversation: let's say that Trump did pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden and his alleged corruption and influence peddling. Is that manipulating our elections? Or is that just classic dirt-digging? You tell me.
Holding back $250M to force Ukraine to make shit up about Biden to influence the election is in fact manipulating the election. Period.

He did it in 2016. "Russia, go find the emails." He is doing it again in plain sight.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 20697
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Turdacious » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:54 am

For context, Ukraine has an annual budget of about $54b. Not exactly a huge offer if you’re going to fuck with the son of a guy who could be the next POTUS.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

DrDonkeyLove...
Lance Cpl.
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:29 pm

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by DrDonkeyLove... » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:36 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:08 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:55 am
For the sake of conversation: let's say that Trump did pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden and his alleged corruption and influence peddling. Is that manipulating our elections? Or is that just classic dirt-digging? You tell me.
Holding back $250M to force Ukraine to make shit up about Biden to influence the election is in fact manipulating the election. Period.

He did it in 2016. "Russia, go find the emails." He is doing it again in plain sight.
Nothing this so-called whistleblower brought forward has been proven correct, or if correct impeachable, yet. But......the leading Dem, the one alleged moderate Dem who could draw moderate votes away from Donny, has been very damaged by Trump splashing (legitimately) corruption all over the Biden clan. Is this accidental or part of his setting the table for 2020?

Time will tell.

User avatar
nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:32 pm

DrDonkeyLove... wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:36 pm
nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:08 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:55 am
For the sake of conversation: let's say that Trump did pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden and his alleged corruption and influence peddling. Is that manipulating our elections? Or is that just classic dirt-digging? You tell me.
Holding back $250M to force Ukraine to make shit up about Biden to influence the election is in fact manipulating the election. Period.

He did it in 2016. "Russia, go find the emails." He is doing it again in plain sight.
Nothing this so-called whistleblower brought forward has been proven correct...
Nothing has been brought forward from the whistleblower, to be exact.

In spite of the Trump-nominated IG for the Intel community saying it was "credible and of urgent concern" and the law saying the DNI shall forward to congress, the DNI hasn't. That's a big enough WTF right there.

In the interim, Trump said it was all fake news that he talked to Ukraine about Biden, then a day (or a few minutes?) later said that of course he talked about Biden, because he's such an anti-corruption advocate. *spew* Like he'd be talking about Biden if Biden was retired and fishing somewhere.

One of the two is a big fucking lie.

Meanwhile Trump supporters went from HORRIBLE FAKE NEWS to OF COURSE IT IS TRUE AND WE SUPPORT IT. In minutes.

On top of that, Trump is accusing the whistleblower of doing a bunch of bad stuff for political reasons. Does he know the guy? Has he been outed already? Sharing his name within the campaign circles?

You are not supposed to take our tax dollars and use them to coerce a foreign government to help your own campaign. Period.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:20 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:08 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:55 am
For the sake of conversation: let's say that Trump did pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden and his alleged corruption and influence peddling. Is that manipulating our elections? Or is that just classic dirt-digging? You tell me.
Holding back $250M to force Ukraine to make shit up about Biden to influence the election is in fact manipulating the election. Period.

He did it in 2016. "Russia, go find the emails." He is doing it again in plain sight.
Is Hunter Biden on the ticket? I don't follow.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10994
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:44 pm

Seems inevitable they'll call for impeachment now. Saying "let the people decide in the next election," which was a reasonable argument before now, is undermined when the crime in question affect that election.

It will be interesting to see what Trump's best options are given where things are in the election cycle. If Biden is nominee and wins, Trump stands a pretty good chance of dying in prison. At some point hoping for a Pence pardon may start looking palatable, but then there's still the SDNY to deal with.

Still no GOP senators defending Trump's behavior, which is odd since this seems so aboveboard to Fatty and Turd.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:47 pm

I don't think you've characterized my position accurately but I am, unlike you folks, interested to find out what actually occurred before jumping to conclusions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p ... cript.html
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:49 pm

Now how will you feel if it turns out that Biden used his position as VP to prevent Ukrainian corruption investigation into his son?
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10994
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:50 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:47 pm
I don't think you've characterized my position accurately but I am, unlike you folks, interested to find out what actually occurred before jumping to conclusions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p ... cript.html
Transcript isn't remotely sufficient. The Senate just unanimously voted for resolution to release the entire whistleblower complaint. It appears the GOP Senator also wants the full picture (or at least the appearance thereof), which is great.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38577
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:56 pm

I've got no problem with any of that. Let the truth come to light. I'm not sure why the transcript wouldn't be a solid start tho. Am i the only one who sees some humor in the fact that you guys have been howling about muh Russia for years and when that went nowhere you've turned to their enemy, Ukraine?
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10994
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: What to make of the election?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:05 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:56 pm
I've got no problem with any of that. Let the truth come to light. I'm not sure why the transcript wouldn't be a solid start tho.
You may recall the Barr memo was deliberately misleading and released early to control the early narrative, and was effective. People are now disinclined to get selective information over time.
Am i the only one who sees some humor in the fact that you guys have been howling about muh Russia for years and when that went nowhere you've turned to their enemy, Ukraine?
Who do you think turned to Ukraine? I'm not sure I follow the logic here at all. It seems like Trump turned to Ukraine, and the IC caught wind of it and has tried to alert Congress. AOC did not trick Trump into crimes.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

Post Reply