This time it's different

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Turdacious
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This time it's different

Post by Turdacious » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:15 pm

The disclosures by Lewinsky reinforce what was previously alleged against Clinton while highlighting that he could have been charged with a number of other crimes. The impeachment centered on the question of whether a president could be impeached for perjury. I appeared in Congress with other experts to debate that question and maintained that lying under oath clearly was an impeachable offense. I disagreed with the other professors at the hearing that there is some subject matter exception for lying about sexual relationships. Federal prosecutors regularly charge people for making false statements without any subject matter limits. The last person you want to give such a license to lie is the president, who heads the executive branch that enforces such laws against all citizens.

While the evidence of perjury was overwhelming, and a federal court affirmed that Clinton committed perjury, Democratic House members voted as a bloc and refused to impeach or convict him. Indeed, many of the lawmakers calling for the investigation and impeachment of Trump previously fought to shield Clinton from such accountability. Back then, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi opposed not only the impeachment but even the investigation of Clinton, insisting that American women viewed his affair with a White House intern to be a private matter and opposed the "uncontrolled power" of independent counsel Ken Starr. Maxine Waters insisted that Clinton was only "guilty of certain indiscretions in his private life." Jerrold Nadler, the incoming House Judiciary Committee chairman, at the time declared that "perjury regarding sex is not a great and dangerous offense against the nation."

Putting aside that perjury is a crime for which other citizens go to jail, the culpability of Clinton was far broader than just his denial. Clinton, much like Trump, was accused of actively trying to influence witnesses and testimony. He arranged for Lewinsky to meet with attorney Vernon Jordan, who was one of his closest friends and political allies. Jordan then arranged for Lewinsky to be represented by his chosen counsel Frank Carter, who drafted a false affidavit denying any affair. That affidavit was notably delayed in being filed as the scandal grew. Lewinsky, who had virtually no work history or relevant background, was offered a job with Revlon, where Jordan was a powerful member of the board of directors.

Lewinsky said, "Frank Carter explained to me if I signed an affidavit denying having had an intimate relationship with the president it might mean I would not have to be deposed in the Paula Jones case." If Carter knew that the affidavit was false, he committed a deeply unethical act. Lewinsky does not say if Carter knew that she had a sexual relationship with Clinton, but she is clear about one other fact. She stated that Clinton encouraged her to lie to investigators. That would be a federal crime and could be viewed as subornation of perjury and witness tampering.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... ton-crimes
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:23 pm

The Clinton/Trump comparison seems extremely dubious, and your quote has a very misleading statement.
Jerrold Nadler, the incoming House Judiciary Committee chairman, at the time declared that "perjury regarding sex is not a great and dangerous offense against the nation."
This seems like a pretty strong argument. I supported impeachment until I found out what actually happens to perjurers.
Putting aside that perjury is a crime for which other citizens go to jail
This is misleading, and the truth works against his underlying argument. People convicted of perjury can be given as little as a fine of a few hundred dollars, OR years in prison, depending on the severity of the offense (see above).

As felonies go, perjury is either a really big deal or barely a slap on the wrist depending on what you are lying about. Based on recent news, it appears likely Trump lied in his answers to Mueller. Depending on what he lied about, this may be NBD or a VBD.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Turdacious » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:35 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:23 pm
The Clinton/Trump comparison seems extremely dubious, and your quote has a very misleading statement.
Jerrold Nadler, the incoming House Judiciary Committee chairman, at the time declared that "perjury regarding sex is not a great and dangerous offense against the nation."
This seems like a pretty strong argument. I supported impeachment until I found out what actually happens to perjurers.
Putting aside that perjury is a crime for which other citizens go to jail
This is misleading, and the truth works against his underlying argument. People convicted of perjury can be given as little as a fine of a few hundred dollars, OR years in prison, depending on the severity of the offense (see above).

As felonies go, perjury is either a really big deal or barely a slap on the wrist depending on what you are lying about. Based on recent news, it appears likely Trump lied in his answers to Mueller. Depending on what he lied about, this may be NBD or a VBD.
To me he was actually arguing that the perjury combined with other factors (especially undue influence of witnesses) were what made Clinton's crime more severe than simple lying under oath. We still know so little about what Mueller thinks he has on Trump that it's hard to say anything either way.

In particular, regarding the accusations of sexual offenses-- what Clinton was accused of by Jones and Broaddrick (actual rape) is far more serious than what Trump's accused of (groping and payoffs).
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Re: This time it's different

Post by JimZipCode » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:57 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:15 pm
Back then, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi opposed not only the impeachment but even the investigation of Clinton, insisting that...
She wasn't minority leader then was she? Or maybe it's just awkwardly phrased, and should say "Back then, current House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi opposed..."


Turdacious wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:35 pm
In particular, regarding the accusations of sexual offenses-- what Clinton was accused of by Jones and Broaddrick (actual rape) is far more serious than what Trump's accused of (groping and payoffs).
Yeah. Back then the whole thing seemed so obviously partisan, part of a stack of attack-lies, that it was easy to dismiss all these women out of hand. More recently I've been wishing I had paid more attention to Broaddrick; at least examined the allegations.

Having said all that: the alleged sexual misconduct is very much a side issue when looking at Trump. Yeah, he's a creep: shocking. The stuff Mueller is (or is not?) investigating is a much bigger deal, IMO.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Turdacious » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:24 pm

In other news, a friend of both Bill and the Orange One is making news...
A last-minute settlement has been reached in Florida in a long-running lawsuit involving a politically connected financier accused of sexually abusing dozens of teenage girls.

The deal came Tuesday just before jury selection was to begin, and for now, it means none of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein will be able to testify.

A lawyer for Epstein read an apology from him to attorney Bradley Edwards, who represents some victims. Edwards claimed Epstein tried to damage his reputation by suing him.

The 65-year-old Epstein pleaded guilty in 2008 to state sex charges, served a year in jail and became a registered sex offender. But in a secret deal with federal prosecutors led by now-Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta, Epstein avoided a possible life term, and victims weren’t heard from in court.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/ ... ny-1043176
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Thud » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:41 pm

But in a secret deal with federal prosecutors led by now-Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta, Epstein avoided a possible life term, and victims weren’t heard from in court.
Always the best people.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Gene » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:10 am

Thud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:41 pm
But in a secret deal with federal prosecutors led by now-Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta, Epstein avoided a possible life term, and victims weren’t heard from in court.
Always the best people.
Yeap... it's good to have friends, especially influential friends.
Bill Clinton's relationship with a billionaire pedophile will be thrust into the spotlight once again in a major book by a bestselling author released just weeks before the presidential election.

The former president will face renewed questions over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein, a registered sex offender who was jailed for 13 months in 2008 for soliciting girls for underage prostitution.

The book, to be published on Monday, the day after Hillary Clinton will face off with Donald Trump in the second presidential debate, will address how Epstein flew Clinton around the world on his private jet to speak about his charitable work.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... erson.html
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Re: This time it's different

Post by JimZipCode » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:14 am

Gene wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:10 am
Yeap... it's good to have friends, especially influential friends.
Bill Clinton's relationship with a billionaire pedophile will be thrust into the spotlight once again in a major book by a bestselling author released just weeks before the presidential election.

The former president will face renewed questions over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein, a registered sex offender who was jailed for 13 months in 2008 for soliciting girls for underage prostitution.

The book, to be published on Monday, the day after Hillary Clinton will face off with Donald Trump in the second presidential debate, will address how Epstein flew Clinton around the world on his private jet to speak about his charitable work.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... erson.html
Not clear what your point is. Are you alleging a crime or cover-up or something? Was registered sex offender Jeffrey Epstein actually a registered sex offender at the time these flights took place? Is the article using "around the world" as a double-entendre?
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Thud » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:54 am

JimZipCode wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:14 am
Gene wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:10 am
Yeap... it's good to have friends, especially influential friends.
Bill Clinton's relationship with a billionaire pedophile will be thrust into the spotlight once again in a major book by a bestselling author released just weeks before the presidential election.

The former president will face renewed questions over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein, a registered sex offender who was jailed for 13 months in 2008 for soliciting girls for underage prostitution.

The book, to be published on Monday, the day after Hillary Clinton will face off with Donald Trump in the second presidential debate, will address how Epstein flew Clinton around the world on his private jet to speak about his charitable work.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... erson.html
Not clear what your point is. Are you alleging a crime or cover-up or something? Was registered sex offender Jeffrey Epstein actually a registered sex offender at the time these flights took place? Is the article using "around the world" as a double-entendre?
Gene is saying that democrats are really bad people but Trump is welcome to grab him by the pussy and subvert democracy every day of the week.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Gene » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:26 pm

Thud wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:54 am
Gene is saying that democrats are really bad people but Trump is welcome to grab him by the pussy and subvert democracy every day of the week.
Did you hear a zipper? Why is your mouth open, Chud?
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Gene » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:40 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:14 am
Not clear what your point is. Are you alleging a crime or cover-up or something? Was registered sex offender Jeffrey Epstein actually a registered sex offender at the time these flights took place? Is the article using "around the world" as a double-entendre?
I don't play with people's anuses, Jim. So that double entendre is kind of lost on me.

I don't know if Mr. Epstein is a "registered sex offender" today. Is that germane, or would it make Clinton's twenty six alleged flights to "Lolita Island" sufficiently strong for you to doubt in the Clinton brand (tm)?

To be honest - Clinton is not known to have flown with Epstein after his conviction.

Epstein's conviction suggests a lot of similar behavior before he finally got caught. That Clinton was with him suggests that Clinton must have known, and did not seem to care, to judge from 26 flights with him to Lolita Island.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Gene » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:56 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:14 am
Not clear what your point is.
I've been in Corporate America for over thirty years. I'm tired of walking on eggshells while scumbags like Bill Clinton get a free pass. I'm tired of the Progressive double standard.

I can have my career slagged because a simple kind word or compliment, taken the wrong way by some neurotic woman. Yes, it happened to me. I got hauled into HR. I wasn't even written up. I was told, around the edges, that my work in key areas was the main reason I wasn't fired.

Who gave her that power? Progressives. I've been harassed by female managers over my weight loss. In past positions I was called a Loud mouthed Jew. I had supervisors stare at my dick while I pissed. I gotta be a fucking boy scout. Whatever, I'm there to make money. None the less it annoys me.

Sexual harassment law, race harassment law, discriminates against white males. I was told that by a Labor Lawyer.

So what was Clinton? He's whiter than I'll ever be.

Bubba can get his dicked sucked in the Oval Office by a 21 year old unpaid intern. The whole fucking point of sexual harassment law was to prevent Bosses from abusing inequality of power to exploit women. Clinton should have said "No" to Monica. He had the power to rain atomic weapons onto people but he can't say "No"?

The most powerful man on the planet can get his dick sucked in the Oval Office. It's his private business. NOW and the rest of these freaks who have battered Corporate America into pushing these bullshit rules through Case Law circled the wagons around Bubba.

In 2016 Monica gate never happened. They ignored it all during Hillary's 2016 campaign, when she ran on her record as "co-President", but everyone conveniently forgot "The Nuts and sluts" defense. Trashing women whom her husband had seduced, fucked and chucked, to "protect the Clinton Brand".

Yeah, Jim. I have a point. Progressives carry on like they're the future, the carriers of the torch of Justice and Goodness.
Last edited by Gene on Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Gene » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:05 pm

I'm sick of the white guilt. None of my ancestors owned slaves, were involved in Jim Crow. All of my ancestors were nobodies.

While it's true that most of the wealth and political power in the US is controlled by white males it does not mean that all white males are empowered. To assert this is to assert a logical fallacy - all of a group does not have all of the attributes of some of the group. It's as racist as calling a black person a criminal or saying that they have rhythm.

I don't have "white privilege". I live within thirty miles of thousands of white people who barely have a pot to piss in or a window in which to toss it out. They live in trailer courts. Barely can afford the oil or propane to heat them. As Chris Rock put it so well, they're fucking their sisters, eating mayonnaise sandwiches and listening to John Cougar or whoever.

I'm sick of Identity Politics. I'm tired of malignant feminism, which has distorted the healthy feminist ideal of a woman being more than the property of her husband or father into a vehicle for revenge against faceless nameless enemies.

I'm tired of people who prattle on about Democracy while allowing it to be subverted by rogue bureaucracies like the EPA, the DEA or the FBI. Gina McCarthy took it upon herself to change the economy, not one Progressive seemed to object.

I'm tired of Corporatists who pretend to be populists. I'm tired of Progressive Commissars who go into bureaucracy, laying in wait to punish people.


I can bear it indefinitely. I don't have to like it and I won't vote for more of it.
Last edited by Gene on Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This time it's different

Post by Gene » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:17 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:23 pm
As felonies go, perjury is either a really big deal or barely a slap on the wrist depending on what you are lying about. Based on recent news, it appears likely Trump lied in his answers to Mueller. Depending on what he lied about, this may be NBD or a VBD.
Sometimes it can be plea bargained down to a fine.
A federal judge yesterday fined Bill Clinton over $90,000 (£57,000) for denying under oath that he had had sex with Monica Lewinsky, in an unprecedented penalty imposed on an incumbent US president.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/ ... linton.usa

I think Bill copped the plea to give Hillary's Senate run in New York State a helping hand. Cleared the air for her. Wasn't a bad move, his legal defense fund paid the bill. His media sycophants would cover his tracks.
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