Heresy in the Cathedral

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Kazuya Mishima
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:56 pm

Fats, don't you know that this country was built by ze blackz?

They're going to get to work on Haiti as soon as their union mandated coffee break is over.

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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:06 pm

You know, I just read two books by Nathaniel Philbrick on the history of the revolutionary war: Bunker Hill and In the Hurricane's Eye, which is about the twin naval and land battles of the Chesapeake and Yorktown. In both it was remarkable, to me, how much African-Americans were involved in the battles and were sacrificing for their future. If any group can be considered fellow travelers and joint participants in the American project, it's them, and I probably didn't understand that as well as I should have.

I don't want to be a person that engages in stupid bigotry. That said, I won't shrink from asking difficult questions about culture and race for fear of meaningless epithets like "racism".
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:14 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 pm
if we've been historically Anglo-Protestant, and elsewhere Anglo-Protestants have a track record of real success from Canada to Australia to South Africa, why wouldn't we prefer them to others in matters of immigration?
It seems like this shouldn't have to be explained, but you wouldn't prefer it because it's vastly inferior to a merit-based system. If we're looking at what's most beneficial to the US, you want advanced STEM degree holders from any developed nations more than you want chimney sweeps from Manchester. Meritocracy is important.
Are we supposed to shoot ourselves in the foot to avoid being called racist?
Clannish behavior is what shoots you in the foot.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:14 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 pm
if we've been historically Anglo-Protestant, and elsewhere Anglo-Protestants have a track record of real success from Canada to Australia to South Africa, why wouldn't we prefer them to others in matters of immigration?
It seems like this shouldn't have to be explained, but you wouldn't prefer it because it's vastly inferior to a merit-based system. If we're looking at what's most beneficial to the US, you want advanced STEM degree holders from any developed nations more than you want chimney sweeps from Manchester. Meritocracy is important.
Are we supposed to shoot ourselves in the foot to avoid being called racist?
Clannish behavior is what shoots you in the foot.
So you support immigration reform moving from clannish family reunification and asylum based immigration to merit-based? Also, it's not entirely clear to me that you would want to import a huge STEM population if it in any way inhibited the development and sustenance of the domestic STEM population. Importing millions of Indian STEM workers isn't a long-term benefit to our domestic development track.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:46 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm
So you support immigration reform moving from clannish family reunification and asylum based immigration to merit-based?
It seems like there is room for both, as long as it's focused on people with skills we want primarily. If that person comes over first and wants to bring immediate family later, that seems sensible given the likely relative costs of living.

It seemed like this:
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... stem-works

was a little more lenient when it came to siblings and caps than I would have guessed, but nothing here looks like it's out of control.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:12 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:46 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm
So you support immigration reform moving from clannish family reunification and asylum based immigration to merit-based?
It seems like there is room for both, as long as it's focused on people with skills we want primarily. If that person comes over first and wants to bring immediate family later, that seems sensible given the likely relative costs of living.

It seemed like this:
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... stem-works

was a little more lenient when it came to siblings and caps than I would have guessed, but nothing here looks like it's out of control.
If we were to Venn diagram educated, English-speaking, law-abiding, all around meritorious immigration with the Anglo-Protestant sphere, what do you think we would find?
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:22 pm

Don't know. It appears there's a 7% cap per country, and most educated people from those countries don't want to come here, so I'd wager it's low.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:31 pm

You know as well as I do what the truth is.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by nafod » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm
Also, it's not entirely clear to me that you would want to import a huge STEM population if it in any way inhibited the development and sustenance of the domestic STEM population. Importing millions of Indian STEM workers isn't a long-term benefit to our domestic development track.
As someone in this business, we'd LOVE for for domestic people to go after STEM. Instead, we have to look overseas way too much.

The good news is nowhere else on the planet can someone who loves STEM get to work on stuff like in the USA. We definitely grab the best and brightest from other countries.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:49 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:35 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm
Also, it's not entirely clear to me that you would want to import a huge STEM population if it in any way inhibited the development and sustenance of the domestic STEM population. Importing millions of Indian STEM workers isn't a long-term benefit to our domestic development track.
As someone in this business, we'd LOVE for for domestic people to go after STEM. Instead, we have to look overseas way too much.

The good news is nowhere else on the planet can someone who loves STEM get to work on stuff like in the USA. We definitely grab the best and brightest from other countries.
I'm all for developing the domestic STEM capacity. Flooding the domestic market with foreign STEM workers who will work for cheaper than domestic supply does not encourage it, and more to the point, there are better ways.

Unfortunately, the hidden voice here is (((international capital))) that just wants cheap labor and doesn't care about the destabilizing and erosive effects of mass immigration. They will always argue for immigration over systemic reform because it costs them nothing and makes them money via cheaper labor force.

What we really should be doing in the USA is engaging in wholesale reform of the education system. For example, student loans for STEM should be easier to obtain and given at more favorable terms than a degree in women's studies or art history because they are not equivalent in value.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by nafod » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:31 pm

Flooding the domestic market with foreign STEM workers...

That is not what is going on. There’s a deficit of good old Americans going into STEM fields. So much of the STEM work requires citizenship to boot. It s a problem.

Lots of business majors in US schools, though.
What we really should be doing in the USA is engaging in wholesale reform of the education system. For example, student loans for STEM should be easier to obtain and given at more favorable terms than a degree in women's studies or art history because they are not equivalent in value.
Something like that makes real sense.

STEM majors can get internships and co-ops and make real money even in college.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 pm

Consider, as a business, what it means to "really need" more STEM workers. Is it that there simply aren't any? Or that you don't want to pay them what it would take to get them?

In a more carefully curated economy, businesses would have to pay these workers higher wages, better benefits, more options, etc. Conversely, in the modern globo-homo world, all international capital has to do is use their mass media to drum up support for immigration with breathless cries of needing foreign STEM workers to maintain competitiveness, purchase the support of politicians, and suppress dissenting viewpoints via manipulation of search engines, social media, etc.

Yet it was exactly that type of language that made China our principle competitors in matters of advanced technology like AI and superconductors. They took our education, our technology, and our training and they went home to huge incentives from the Chinese government with pockets full of stolen shit. But there are lots of problems with just herding in Indians and Chinese: reverse brain drain, technology transfer and theft, citizenship requirements for certain sectors (e.g., security), etc.

Bottom line: we should want our country, our culture, the American one, to be the best, strongest, most vibrant and productive in the world. Not just our economy, but our entire American civilization. That civilization really is built on "Anglo-Protestant" values, the material prosperity it allows, and the technological advancement it has supported. In order for us to do that, we should play to our strengths, we should encourage immigration from people and places that share our worldview and which can contribute to our mission, and we should actively thwart other competing systems like China, India, or the Islamic world. No animal survives in the jungle by pretending they're all gonna be friends and opting out of the struggle to survive.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:09 pm

Foreign doctors are revealed to be behind 60% of all sex assaults on patients - but NHS wants fewer of them taken to disciplinary hearings

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ients.html
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by nafod » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:14 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 pm
Consider, as a business, what it means to "really need" more STEM workers. Is it that there simply aren't any? Or that you don't want to pay them what it would take to get them?
They get paid quite well, and its known, but for some odd reason American kids would rather do other stuff. The best & brightest quite often run to Wall Street and finance and business. Lots go into medical fields.

In the defense industry, you can't hire the foreigners because...they're foreign. Can't get a clearance. This leaves them short of at a minimum the best talent, if not sheer bodies.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by DrDonkeyLove... » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:41 pm

nafod wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:14 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 pm
Consider, as a business, what it means to "really need" more STEM workers. Is it that there simply aren't any? Or that you don't want to pay them what it would take to get them?
They get paid quite well, and its known, but for some odd reason American kids would rather do other stuff. The best & brightest quite often run to Wall Street and finance and business. Lots go into medical fields.

In the defense industry, you can't hire the foreigners because...they're foreign. Can't get a clearance. This leaves them short of at a minimum the best talent, if not sheer bodies.
I can't address what American kids want but can state unequivocally that American universities are building STEM facilities at an astounding rate.

That said, when I go into a science building on an American campus maybe 40% look like white bread Amurikkkans. The rest appear to be either international students or, perhaps, first generation Americans from Asia. So, a non-citizen seeking a STEM job in the US could very well have a degree from a US university.

And, anyone who thinks that women aren't massively finding homes in the sciences will change their mind walking down the the hallway of the same buildings.

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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:30 pm

In a for profit environment, which most universities are, they are happy to take foreign students. Look at what has happened in Australia: they built huge facilities, packed them full of Chinese students, and became dependent on that source of money. Now the Chinese throw their weight around, bully Hong Kong and Taiwan students, and generally try to manipulate the curriculum to serve their interests and silence criticism. We should not, in any way whatsoever, cater to the Chinese in the educational market even to the point of disallowing them.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:43 pm

nafod wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:14 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 pm
Consider, as a business, what it means to "really need" more STEM workers. Is it that there simply aren't any? Or that you don't want to pay them what it would take to get them?
They get paid quite well, and its known, but for some odd reason American kids would rather do other stuff. The best & brightest quite often run to Wall Street and finance and business. Lots go into medical fields.

In the defense industry, you can't hire the foreigners because...they're foreign. Can't get a clearance. This leaves them short of at a minimum the best talent, if not sheer bodies.
When American kids can no longer get cheap student loans for useless degrees (e.g., fashion, art history, black history, etc.) that will never get them anywhere, but which they are too inexperienced and spoiled to understand are useless, that can change.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by nafod » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:03 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:30 pm
In a for profit environment, which most universities are, they are happy to take foreign students. Look at what has happened in Australia: they built huge facilities, packed them full of Chinese students, and became dependent on that source of money. Now the Chinese throw their weight around, bully Hong Kong and Taiwan students, and generally try to manipulate the curriculum to serve their interests and silence criticism. We should not, in any way whatsoever, cater to the Chinese in the educational market even to the point of disallowing them.
I wish you were wronger on this.

Penn State is bumming right now because it is getting fewer foreign applicants.

The ones here drive around in Maseratis and Corvettes. Until they hit the trees.

Here's a car-divider tree located by a street in a 25 MPH zone. The tree was barely scratched, amazingly.

Image
According to State College police, Tang was driving his Chevrolet Corvette northbound on South Atherton Street when he lost control and struck a tree at 4:22 a.m. near the intersection with West Fairmount Avenue. According to Alpha Fire company, the vehicle was split in two pieces upon impact.

The preliminary investigation suggests speed was a factor in the crash, police said.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:08 pm

The reason I'm not wronger is because I'm right.
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Re: Heresy in the Cathedral

Post by DrDonkeyLove... » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:47 am

nafod wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:03 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:30 pm
In a for profit environment, which most universities are, they are happy to take foreign students. Look at what has happened in Australia: they built huge facilities, packed them full of Chinese students, and became dependent on that source of money. Now the Chinese throw their weight around, bully Hong Kong and Taiwan students, and generally try to manipulate the curriculum to serve their interests and silence criticism. We should not, in any way whatsoever, cater to the Chinese in the educational market even to the point of disallowing them.
I wish you were wronger on this.

Penn State is bumming right now because it is getting fewer foreign applicants.

The ones here drive around in Maseratis and Corvettes. Until they hit the trees.

Here's a car-divider tree located by a street in a 25 MPH zone. The tree was barely scratched, amazingly.

Image
According to State College police, Tang was driving his Chevrolet Corvette northbound on South Atherton Street when he lost control and struck a tree at 4:22 a.m. near the intersection with West Fairmount Avenue. According to Alpha Fire company, the vehicle was split in two pieces upon impact.

The preliminary investigation suggests speed was a factor in the crash, police said.
One thing that's happening is that countries, at least in the middle east, are eliminating things like this by building their own universities. If you live in the UAE, why send your kid to NYU when you can send him to NYU Abu Dhabi campus?

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