Game Changers - the documentary

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Sangoma
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Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Sangoma » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:59 am

I just realised this hasn't been talked about here (or I missed it). I watched it it on Netflix few weeks ago and managed about a third of it. And of course, Chris Cresser and James Wilks episode on Joe Rogan was quite entertaining. Cresser is too soft to face a bully like WIlks, and the latter managed to tilt the argument his way by continuously interrupting and going of meaningless tangents.

Good review of the flick here: THE GAME CHANGERS – A SCIENTIFIC REVIEW WITH FULL CITATIONS
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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by JohnDoe » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:50 pm

I enjoyed it and watched the Wilks/Cresser back and forth. Currently trying vegan(ish) for a bit to see if I have more energy and feel good. Currently, I do. Sure, it's probably less junk, but what do I care? I've hunted and fished, but I also know that there's an ethical component to food that I get to ignore when it's convenient. Which is true for farm laborers too, not just cows in a feed lot, I might add.

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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:50 pm

Wilkes bluster and bullying and logical fallacies made that hard to listen to.

I didn't get far enough to get an answer to this though:

Why not compare a 'clean' diet with animal products in it to a 'clean' diet with only plant based foods? Why do you compare a fast food (KFC, Popeye's, McDonalds) diet with a 'clean' vegan diet?

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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:57 pm

Is this the one about veganism? Hahaha ya fuck that.
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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Sangoma » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:12 pm

Every time the resemblance of a discussion occurred Wilks dropped back to insulting Cresser. "You can't even read the forest chart!" And every study to the contrary of veganism have to be industry funded and it's authors crooks.

Entertaining me ertheless, even though it's not really a discussion. I wish they invited Guyenet to talk about this.
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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:16 pm

Literally no one wants to be a vegan except for over educated, holier-than-thou white people who have been trained by mass media to feel guilty for casting a shadow. If all of Africa wants to go vegan, have at it, but I'm good thanks.
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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:23 pm

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One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:43 pm

Rogan did another ep with just Kresser after the debate one. I started to watch it then came to my senses.

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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Sangoma » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:09 am

The problem with Joe Rogan discussion that neither of these two guys were capable of interpreting research, in spite of Wilks' claims of spending twenty thousand hours (or whatever) digging into articles.

I dug out one of the Willet's studies, the one that "proves" that meat makes you die. It is the first one at this link (clicking the link downloads PDF file, so I can't link it here)

https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q ... i=scholart

It is a good example of how easy it is to generate a scare for the public. They used two cohorts from large projects, "37 698 men from the Health Professionals Follow-up Study (1986-2008) and 83 644 women from the Nurses’ Health Study (1980-2008) who were free of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and cancer at baseline."

I am not going to get into the details, only the conclusions. Meat consumption was associated with increases in mortality from cancer and heart disease by 13 to 20 percent. Overall 23.962 people died over the period of 22 - 28 years of follow up. Without getting into complex math, 20% extra on top of the average mortality means that death rate among heaviest meat eaters was about 24%. Extra 4% over 28 year period - in a study with numerous confounders (more smokers, higher calorie intake among meat eaters, for example) - is not something you should get excited about.

For example, mortality for consuming processed meat for lowest intake was 594/172 817 (0.34%) compared with the highest intake - 677/152 631 (0.44%). Sure, 0.44% minus 0.34% divided by 0.34% times 100 equals 29% difference. Now, you decide which number you want to focus on. Less than one in a hundred for highest versus... less than one in a hundred for the lowest per year.

Deciphering an article is a tedious job, and in many instances the authors do a very good job to make their numbers more impressive and presentable, so that they can get their week of glory with the media. This article, which is one of the pillars for WHO to claim that meat is bad, is an example of that.

Couple of months ago John Ioannidis, a very reputable epidemiologist, wrote an editorial in JAMA, where he said it best:
Effective dissemination of public health messages may need to focus on a few, powerful, easily understood, uncontentious pieces of advice. For example, uncontested, major recommendations include the following: do not smoke (or quit smoking), exercise regularly, do not eat too much, do not become obese, do not drink alcohol in excess, and sleep well. Conversely, the current informational cloud quickly becomes overpopulated with confusing minutiae. With limited mention of the major causes of death, the average person is bombarded with conflicting trivial messages about purported benefits of various nutrients, is prodded to improve health by owning dogs, or is stressed about modern smartphones and social media exposure. Even in countries with the best public health infrastructure (such as Switzerland), many people know only a small portion of the most essential facts about health. Given this rampant global health risk innumeracy, communicating secondary issues may be largely a fruitless detracting nuisance.
Amen, professor. Now guerss how much media coverage will his editorial get.
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Re: Game Changers - the documentary

Post by Sangoma » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:54 am

The saga continues. Here is good discussion of the... discussion on Joe Rogan.

Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser?
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