Pavhole on Rogan

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:22 pm

Not to resurrect old Pavel is a fraud bullshit....but.....

I used to think highly of Pavel. I didn't necessarily agree with everything he said, but that was fine. I liked the core of what he did and thought it all "made sense."

But doing a critical rethinking.....what has he done that really works? Or works better than other methods that are out there?

Take Power to the People. It's a great program.... but is it? Who's ever used it long term? What long term results did they really get? Were the results really better than other things they could have done?

And you can do down the line with all of it. ETK....RTK.....the whole body of his work.

You step back. He takes complex programs/philosophies based in Russian systems. But does he? I've looked at some of the Russian stuff. It's not as simple as he says.

He says you need to work hard but not too hard. But all those programs have heavy volume and heavy work and follow with a lot of assistance. Nothing he does looks like any of the successful programs he bases his on.

I don't think he is dumb, by any means. But that doesn't mean what he does really works when you get down to it, or it doesn't work because it was anything special he did. Or put it this way. The swing is a pretty solid exercise whether you program it as 10 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 10 to 20 or ladders or whatever.

Maybe his whole premise is just flawed?

I'm "thinking" out loud here.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:28 pm

If you want to know how Russians train look at Boris Sheyko's book, it's pretty exhaustive and includes an analysis of domestic Russian and foreign (i.e., American) methods for weightlifting and powerlifting. It's a great resource.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Hanglow Joe » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:23 pm

newguy wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:22 pm
Not to resurrect old Pavel is a fraud bullshit....but.....

I used to think highly of Pavel. I didn't necessarily agree with everything he said, but that was fine. I liked the core of what he did and thought it all "made sense."

But doing a critical rethinking.....what has he done that really works? Or works better than other methods that are out there?

Take Power to the People. It's a great program.... but is it? Who's ever used it long term? What long term results did they really get? Were the results really better than other things they could have done?

And you can do down the line with all of it. ETK....RTK.....the whole body of his work.

You step back. He takes complex programs/philosophies based in Russian systems. But does he? I've looked at some of the Russian stuff. It's not as simple as he says.

He says you need to work hard but not too hard. But all those programs have heavy volume and heavy work and follow with a lot of assistance. Nothing he does looks like any of the successful programs he bases his on.

I don't think he is dumb, by any means. But that doesn't mean what he does really works when you get down to it, or it doesn't work because it was anything special he did. Or put it this way. The swing is a pretty solid exercise whether you program it as 10 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 10 to 20 or ladders or whatever.

Maybe his whole premise is just flawed?

I'm "thinking" out loud here.
Everything works for awhile. It's just how far do you want to take it?

I like ETK and it worked really well for me on the press side. But there comes a point where you either max out the gains you have left or you get hurt. For most people, 200 lb and under, that's 32kg. 75 reps on each side, you just start getting nicked a little. I never liked the fact that squats weren't included, but you could do them on a variety day.

There is no way, no chance, no how the average person can do 200 snatches without training for it. If you're a mutant, young and strong, sure. A 40 year old? Not going to happen.

The Andy Bolton side of Deadlift Dynamite was good, but the Pavel side was dumb. In all honesty, he's run out of stuff within kettlebells. The A+A stuff might be useful, if you want to die of boredom doing it.

Most gains are new gains and there is no WTH effect. If you do swings, you'll be in better shape than if you are sedentary. Does it take a genius to figure that out?

From what's been written here, I didn't listen to the podcast, I wonder how Rogan felt afterward. Is Pavel more snake oil these days than substance?

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:00 pm

At best, Pavel can be said to have a solid training in physiology and exercise science and talent for sifting through others work to organize and communicate it to a general audience. He's also a compulsive liar.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by JasonC » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:09 pm

He is an incredibly good popularizer. Here are game-changing ideas that I learned from Pavel that I would have heard about from no one else:
  • neurological training
  • using frequency and volume
  • low fatigue
  • pulls as an alternative to squats
  • and kettlebells of course--this is obviously
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by JasonC » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:00 pm
He's also a compulsive liar.
We need details!

And none of this shit like, "Oh, it's all been said before. Go read the entire fucking IGx archive." I was never a DD insider with a direct line to Denny and shit, and I came a few months late to the IGx party back when The Revolt of the Steves happened, so I want to hear all the stories from the tribal elders around the campfire again.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:12 pm

Pulls are not an alternative to squats.

His original information on kettlebells is...haha, not good.

He literally contradicts himself all the time.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:12 pm

JasonC wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:00 pm
He's also a compulsive liar.
We need details!

And none of this shit like, "Oh, it's all been said before. Go read the entire fucking IGx archive." I was never a DD insider with a direct line to Denny and shit, and I came a few months late to the IGx party back when The Revolt of the Steves happened, so I want to hear all the stories from the tribal elders around the campfire again.
He's not a Master of Sport, for one.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:19 pm

He almost certainly was not a Spetsnaz trainer for Soviet troops in Afghanistan. I know it sound cool but if his publicly acknowledged birthday, August 23, 1969 is accurate he was 19 when the war ended, and we know that he then supposedly got his training, a degree in Sports Science from the Physical Culture Institute in Minsk. Consider:

-Born 8/23/11969

-USSR withdraws from Afghanistan 2/15/1989

So he was a teenager training USSR Special Forces at age 19 when he was allegedly getting his degree in Minsk? Not likely at all. In USSR, subject to the 1967 Law on Universal Military Service, men were subject to two years military service from age 18. It could be postponed due to education. So, he either was in school, or he would have been doing his own compulsory service, not training the best of the Soviet's best.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:26 pm

JasonC wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:09 pm
He is an incredibly good popularizer. Here are game-changing ideas that I learned from Pavel that I would have heard about from no one else:
  • neurological training
  • using frequency and volume
  • low fatigue
  • pulls as an alternative to squats
  • and kettlebells of course--this is obviously
And this is where i think Pavel might be full of shit....because those things you list
* all training is neurological....
* no proof it works.....(high frequency/low volume)....plenty of proof it doesn't
* low fatigue - again - no proof it works. No championship physiques/world class anything has been built on minimized fatigue programs.
* Pulls are NOT a substitute for squats. In fact, it's almost practically fact that squats are more essential for strength and or physique than pulls.
* KBs....definitely brought them back to consciousness .... but didn't know what to do with them. Half of the shit (and I'm being generous with just half) came from americans, the other half was never part of the russian training.

And I think he really does a disservice minimizing the needs for reps per set. We have a lot more evidence that you can build strength and muscle (which is what 99% of people want) with higher rep sets. Sets of 10 plus. And you build strength.

He took a shit on western bodybuilding methods and plenty of us ran with it because it was novel, the marketing was slick, all of it.

Not to say KBs are not awesome. They are. But Pavel's methods might not be.

And I'm not convinced yet what I wrote is right. It's just where I'm leaning with my thoughts now.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:29 pm

JasonC wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:00 pm
He's also a compulsive liar.
We need details!

And none of this shit like, "Oh, it's all been said before. Go read the entire fucking IGx archive." I was never a DD insider with a direct line to Denny and shit, and I came a few months late to the IGx party back when The Revolt of the Steves happened, so I want to hear all the stories from the tribal elders around the campfire again.
I still remember someone asking him about the side press on the DD forum.....remember that bullshit. The fucking side press. They asked him how strong he had gotten in it.

His response was he didn't side press. He focused on the military press......

There was always shit like that. And as time went on he talked less and less about what he actually did. How he actually trained.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:55 pm

I gave Q&D a serious run a few months back. I got a sprained hip and slightly better conditioning. Should have just stuck with my bag work and muscle beach barbell sodomy.

For a guy that knows so much about training, he sure as fuck looks a lot like Jeff Goldblum from the neck down.

"I don't eat chicken"...why, are faggots allergic to goddamn chicken?

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:32 pm

He's not even Russian.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Dietrich Buchenholz » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:49 pm

Pavel is authentic as I am.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 am

Dietrich Buchenholz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:49 pm
Pavel is authentic as I am.
The best sports trainer ever! \:D/
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Sangoma » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:14 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:19 pm
He almost certainly was not a Spetsnaz trainer for Soviet troops in Afghanistan. I know it sound cool but if his publicly acknowledged birthday, August 23, 1969 is accurate he was 19 when the war ended, and we know that he then supposedly got his training, a degree in Sports Science from the Physical Culture Institute in Minsk. Consider:

-Born 8/23/11969

-USSR withdraws from Afghanistan 2/15/1989

So he was a teenager training USSR Special Forces at age 19 when he was allegedly getting his degree in Minsk? Not likely at all. In USSR, subject to the 1967 Law on Universal Military Service, men were subject to two years military service from age 18. It could be postponed due to education. So, he either was in school, or he would have been doing his own compulsory service, not training the best of the Soviet's best.
It's "Spetznaz drill instructor" as of recently. Couple of weeks ago I was leading the warm up at my BJJ school - it included technical stand-up and shrimping. Technically I am a BJJ drill instructor.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:00 pm

I am also beginning to believe Donald Trump may not have been as successful a businessman as he presented himself.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Turdacious » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:09 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:00 pm
I am also beginning to believe Donald Trump may not have been as successful a businessman as he presented himself.
What does that have to do with Pavel?
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:09 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:00 pm
I am also beginning to believe Donald Trump may not have been as successful a businessman as he presented himself.
What does that have to do with Pavel?
I think poking holes in someones bio and determining they're a fraud is perhaps a little rich here.

This thread is not old and I'd say is a fairer analysis of Pavel overall.
Edited link: http://irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=230708

If he's being obviously deceptive, that's a flag, and it might color your opinion of him. But I think there's a difference in the likelihood of B-Mac duping Tim Ferriss and 2010 CrossFitters vs. somebody duping actual athletes, high-profile coaches, etc. The latter doesn't make sense any to me.
Last edited by Grandpa's Spells on Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Turdacious » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:06 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm
I think poking holes in someones bio and determining they're a fraud is perhaps a little rich here.
Maybe the better question is to ask what is valid about his pre-Dragon Door bio?
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm
This thread is not old and I'd say is a fairer analysis of Pavel overall.
http://irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php
I'll check it out.
The requested topic does not exist.
Lol
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm
I think poking holes in someones bio and determining they're a fraud is perhaps a little rich here.
This is not "poking holes" it's outright fraudulent. He was not, ever, a Master of Sport yet claimed to be one to sell books and certifications off of which he made many thousands. That's pretty blatant dishonesty with a profit motive.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Ripe Turd » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:26 pm

newguy wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:26 pm
JasonC wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:09 pm
He is an incredibly good popularizer. Here are game-changing ideas that I learned from Pavel that I would have heard about from no one else:
  • neurological training
  • using frequency and volume
  • low fatigue
  • pulls as an alternative to squats
  • and kettlebells of course--this is obviously
And this is where i think Pavel might be full of shit....because those things you list
* all training is neurological....
* no proof it works.....(high frequency/low volume)....plenty of proof it doesn't
* low fatigue - again - no proof it works. No championship physiques/world class anything has been built on minimized fatigue programs.
* Pulls are NOT a substitute for squats. In fact, it's almost practically fact that squats are more essential for strength and or physique than pulls.
* KBs....definitely brought them back to consciousness .... but didn't know what to do with them. Half of the shit (and I'm being generous with just half) came from americans, the other half was never part of the russian training.

And I think he really does a disservice minimizing the needs for reps per set. We have a lot more evidence that you can build strength and muscle (which is what 99% of people want) with higher rep sets. Sets of 10 plus. And you build strength.

He took a shit on western bodybuilding methods and plenty of us ran with it because it was novel, the marketing was slick, all of it.

Not to say KBs are not awesome. They are. But Pavel's methods might not be.

And I'm not convinced yet what I wrote is right. It's just where I'm leaning with my thoughts now.
I think about this sometimes when I think of PTTP...

It's his only real "barbell training program" that I know of...
There are dozens of posts at StrongFirst (and maybe there were at DD, can't remember) about having a "beginner barbell program"...
StrongFist even offers barbell seminars...
Pavel wrote "easy strength" with Dan John...

yet Pavel never wrote a barbell program?
Shit, I mean it must not be THAT hard for a guy like Pavel to write a BEGINNER barbell program? I would sell a fuckton.

As if all he knows is how to translate and simplify Russian training methodologies. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do, far from it, but ...
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:49 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm
I think poking holes in someones bio and determining they're a fraud is perhaps a little rich here.
This is not "poking holes" it's outright fraudulent. He was not, ever, a Master of Sport yet claimed to be one to sell books and certifications off of which he made many thousands. That's pretty blatant dishonesty with a profit motive.
I agree, I just think I agree with more with 2018 FatCat
Last Year FatCat wrote:Everyone knows it was Pavel who put KBs in the hands of a billion bros. He made them available, but more to the point, he got people excited about the idea. That's something really rare: the ability to recognize untapped value, generate enthusiasm for it, and then market it. Only a few people, guys like Arthur Jones, can do it. Pavel did it in spades. Now, anybody who looks at the original RKC video can see that Pavel is not the master of any fucking sport at all. He's terrible. I mean it. But he did have the basic idea that training a variety of high-tension and ballistic lifts with kettlebells could make almost anybody stronger and more athletic, and he was able to pass that on to many, many other people. Kettlebell training has been a huge boon to my training over the years, and I credit him with that.

Final, final codicil to all of this is that Pavel's greatest strength is his ability and willingness to keep learning. I think that he did not come to the US as a master coach, he made himself into one here, by associating himself with people who really know what the fuck they are doing and being willing to draw on these strands and tie them together.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:59 pm

I guess I'm at a loss to how anything I said now contradicts what I said then. He's knowledgeable, but the I said that on this thread. He's a fraud, but I said that on that thread. What gives?
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 pm

It seems like your posts have gone from 10% focus on his backstory and 90% on his contributions to the opposite, giving a different impression despite containing mostly the same facts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting.
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