Pavhole on Rogan

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Turdacious » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:36 pm

So on a scale of Matt Furey (1) to Arthur Jones (10), where does Pavel fit?
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by JasonC » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:30 pm

If Pavel's hiding something about his background, I bet it's not so much a Big Lie (e.g. tubby LARPer in mall dressed in bogus Ranger uniform, gets exposed and humiliated on camera) as a pretty innocuous Don Draper kind of thing, like (and this is 100% speculative fiction)...
  • Maybe he resorted to something fishy to get his US visa, in a way that's pretty standard for people coming from crappy countries (e.g. if you ask Chinese emigres doing low-skilled work how they got out, they get very, very tight-lipped and uncomfortable), and if it were scrutinized, there's a remote chance it could jam him up or (more likely) somebody back home;
  • Or some Soviet version of "Actually, that dude was just a support guy for a SEAL unit," like maybe his "Spetzaz" unit was actually a Ministry of the Interior regiment and not the real army. Or like Smet said, maybe "drill instructor" just means he led PT for a week when the sergeant was drunk. Or maybe his job was something soft that his dad got for him serving tea in some Spetznaz colonel's office at the GRU.
  • Or maybe if people from high school/the army/college surfaced, they'd say he was a loser, or he got beat up a lot, or he was the weak sister in his unit, or he fucked up on some humiliating way, etc.
  • Or some version of "what he actually studied in Minsk was ballet."
So if there's a secret, I'm betting it was either immigration-related (yawn) or something more that JDC sexed up about his bio that he's too proud to walk back now. But at this point, with Pavel's name recognition and contacts and business resume since moving here, even if he got #metoo'ed by Catherine the Great, I don't think the fitness lemmings of the world would care, just like Dickie the imposter has legitimately become Don Fucking Draper and the only person who's gonna care who he was 30 years ago is him.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:40 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:21 pm
It seems like your posts have gone from 10% focus on his backstory and 90% on his contributions to the opposite, giving a different impression despite containing mostly the same facts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting.
Because one thread was about his positive contributions and the other was about his obvious deceptions. :butthead:
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Sangoma » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:55 pm

I personally think Pavel made up more than one thing in his bio, and that's why it is poor in terms of actual dates. There is actually one date only: his birthday. There is another peculiar fact: there is not a single interview with Pavel in Russia, only translations from Western sources, even though his books have been translated to Russian and his name is very well known in the fitness circles over there. And trust me, a person of his popularity would make way more money over there than selling seminars and books. I am guessing the risk of someone calling him on his claims is too high.

On the other hand, he is a great presenter of information, and his current credentials are well earned. As I said many times before, his main contribution to training, in my opinion, is the move from "no pain, no gain" to more sustainable low grade frequent effort for a long time. Which for the average joe is much more productive, both in terms of actually achieving some level of strength and reduced chance of injury. SF crowd is a good opportunity for him to test various training templates, and this makes him a legit coach.

When you put the good and the bad on the Femida scales the verdict should be favourable. He did introduce kettle bells to the West (albeit with great help from John Du Cane), he did develop several programs that can turn weaklings into strong people, he did educate the masses about periodisation and so on and so forth. Sure, there are contradictions in his teachings, but that's not uncommon among coaches anyway. As I said, the wankery on SF irritates the fuck out of me, but having Freido run things that way eliminates headaches and eventually brings more profit.

Overall, I think, Pavel is doing good and deserves credit.

Freides, on the other hand, is a lying cowardly cunt incapable of an intelligent conversation. Just saying.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by JasonC » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:05 am

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:55 pm
another peculiar fact: there is not a single interview with Pavel in Russia, only translations from Western sources, even though his books have been translated to Russian and his name is very well known in the fitness circles over there.
This. Even on the Russian internet, nobody knows a thing about him except what they gleaned from interviews translated from English. It's amazing to me that there's not someone on teh webz in Minsk saying, "Holy fuck, Pavel Tsatsouline!! I knew this guy in college!" The world is small, Belarus is even smaller, the community of Latvian military families who lived in Minsk in the 80s is even smaller, there are only so many alumni of the Minsk Institute of Physical Culture, etc. etc.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:35 am

It's okay guys, Spells said not to worry about it. Just make your checks payable to Advanced Fitness Solutions, Inc.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Ripe Turd » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:29 pm

JasonC wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:05 am
Sangoma wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:55 pm
another peculiar fact: there is not a single interview with Pavel in Russia, only translations from Western sources, even though his books have been translated to Russian and his name is very well known in the fitness circles over there.
This. Even on the Russian internet, nobody knows a thing about him except what they gleaned from interviews translated from English. It's amazing to me that there's not someone on teh webz in Minsk saying, "Holy fuck, Pavel Tsatsouline!! I knew this guy in college!" The world is small, Belarus is even smaller, the community of Latvian military families who lived in Minsk in the 80s is even smaller, there are only so many alumni of the Minsk Institute of Physical Culture, etc. etc.
Hard to say "Holy fuck, Pavel Tsatsouline!! I knew this guy in college!" if the guy changed name since college :-k :-k

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:20 pm

One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:51 pm

Really talking about all of this without mentioning John Du Cane is silly.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Hanglow Joe » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:28 pm

newguy wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:51 pm
Really talking about all of this without mentioning John Du Cane is silly.
Pavel has been gone so long from DD, Ducane has gotten the stink off of him.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Hanglow Joe » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:30 pm

newguy wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:51 pm
Really talking about all of this without mentioning John Du Cane is silly.
Pavel has been gone so long from DD, Ducane has gotten the stink off of him.

Anybody thinking of getting an IsoChain?

https://www.dragondoor.com/store/why_yo ... sometrics/

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:39 pm

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$400? Oh dear look at that.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:16 pm

400 dollars and they are not in production yet. This is an in house kickstarter campaign.....

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:21 pm

Hanglow Joe wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:28 pm
newguy wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:51 pm
Really talking about all of this without mentioning John Du Cane is silly.
Pavel has been gone so long from DD, Ducane has gotten the stink off of him.
John Du Cane is a slick dan kennedy ad copy graduate. And one of the requirements of dan kennedy ad copy is that to sell you have to sell the expertise. The reader has to believe that there is some expertise behind the claims.

Pavel can't be just a guy who worked out with kettlebells. That won't push the copy. He has to be an expert. There has to be an aura of mystery and secret. This is all adcopy 101. So Pavel is suddenly an MS in the sport of kettebells.

I'm sure that's all DuCane.

He did the same thing with Paul Wade.

He did the same thing with himself in a lot of ways.

Edit - I have no idea if Pavel ever hit MS numbers at his time in the military or not. Pavel knew about GS and GS style techniques for the time. When it was all questioned about him hitting his MS numbers and getting them, there was a major hullabaloo at the DD forums. I feel like John Ducane responded with Pavel's response which was essentially his MS was done in a military comp. KBs were an applied military sport or something like that.

And the MS numbers for the time (see the old RKC book) were certainly not unobtainable by just training. It seems like KBs hadn't reached such a level of specialization then.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:13 pm

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Badge of the Merited Master of Sport of the USSR title. Awarded to Soviet boxer Victor Mikhailov in 1936

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ID card for fencing coach Galina Gorokhova identifying her as a Merited Coach of the Soviet Union

Pavel's story about it being a military competition is BS. All sports classification was laid out in the Unified Sports Classification System of the USSR (1935) which laid out all sports disciplines, their governance, standards, etc. After WWII it was updated every four years from 1949 on, corresponding to the Olympic cycle. That document provides all of the test standards, principles and conditions, necessary for the conferment of sports ranks and titles, for all sports, cultivated in the USSR. The whole point of this was to have a UNIFIED system of standards and rankings so that performances could be evaluated and advanced with a strong comparative and pedagogical emphasis. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_S ... and_Russia

There aren't, and never were, two separate sets of standards for military vs. civilian kettlebell rankings, which he claimed, and there is only one way to achieve Master of Sports in any sport: to achieve a standard in an official government-run contest and to have that performance verified with the State Committee for Sports and Physical Education of the USSR, who then conferred the title along with a serial number, badge, and identification card. I have posted examples above of these types of awards. The USSR was obnoxiously bureaucratic and the idea that he can't produce any of this documentation is utter nonsense. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_ ... iet_Period

The Ready for Labour and Defence of the USSR program, which Pavel tries to hide behind, didn't have a separate kettlebell anything, the tests are all published and well known: running (100m, 1000m, 3000m), long jump, high jump, pull-ups, rising up with a turn on the high bar, dummy grenade throwing, cross-country skiing (5 km or 10 km; or 5 km running in southern regions), 50m small bore rifle shooting, swimming (100m with time, or 200m without time). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ready_for ... f_the_USSR
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:27 am

Yeah. Fuck that guy.

I dabbled in Kung Fu San Soo in my youth. Moving to Southern Cali, I took some Kung Fu San Soo lessons back in the day from a guy who got his black belt from Jimmy Woo. I think I trained with him (took classes) for a school year. Two semesters.

If anyone ever questioned it....well there were pictures of him and Jimmy Woo training together. There was a fucking photo of Jimmy Woo handing him the fucking black belt.

I trained with another guy in college (I forget his name) at the LA Boxing club. He was a thai champ. There were pictures of him with trophies and framed photos of him in the ring and all that shit.

I have a Master's Degree in my field and I actually received a "best in class" sort of award. If anyone questions it...I can provide my degree, my award, and all of it.

This is all lineage 101 and it's not hard to prove "this is who I am, this is where I've learned it, this is how you know I'm not full of shit."

And it matters a lot.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Sangoma » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:06 am

In Russia it is very easy to prove if you are MS: the badge and the certificate. The badge looks exactly like the image on the left side below. Both are issued by the Ministry of Physical Culture, Sport and Tourism. Signed by high level official (in the certificate below the Principal Deputy Minister).

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I suspect Newguy is correct that Du Cane could have pushed Pavel's titles for marketing purposes. The whole thing was built on the Evil Russian theme - Spetznaz, "deal with it!", "comrade" and other a la Russki stuff. Shit, man, even I fell for it at some point - and I hate both the Army and Crazy Russian stereotypes. From Pavel's point of view though, once you've gone down that road it is very hard to undo it.
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by newguy » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:49 am

Sangoma wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:06 am
In Russia it is very easy to prove if you are MS: the badge and the certificate. The badge looks exactly like the image on the left side below. Both are issued by the Ministry of Physical Culture, Sport and Tourism. Signed by high level official (in the certificate below the Principal Deputy Minister).

Image

I suspect Newguy is correct that Du Cane could have pushed Pavel's titles for marketing purposes. The whole thing was built on the Evil Russian theme - Spetznaz, "deal with it!", "comrade" and other a la Russki stuff. Shit, man, even I fell for it at some point - and I hate both the Army and Crazy Russian stereotypes. From Pavel's point of view though, once you've gone down that road it is very hard to undo it.
Well lets skip all the pleasantries and get down to business....who is the hottie?

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Turdacious » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:42 am

newguy wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:49 am
Sangoma wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:06 am
In Russia it is very easy to prove if you are MS: the badge and the certificate. The badge looks exactly like the image on the left side below. Both are issued by the Ministry of Physical Culture, Sport and Tourism. Signed by high level official (in the certificate below the Principal Deputy Minister).

Image

I suspect Newguy is correct that Du Cane could have pushed Pavel's titles for marketing purposes. The whole thing was built on the Evil Russian theme - Spetznaz, "deal with it!", "comrade" and other a la Russki stuff. Shit, man, even I fell for it at some point - and I hate both the Army and Crazy Russian stereotypes. From Pavel's point of view though, once you've gone down that road it is very hard to undo it.
Well lets skip all the pleasantries and get down to business....who is the hottie?
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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by DrDonkeyLove... » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:07 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:42 am
newguy wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:49 am
Sangoma wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:06 am
In Russia it is very easy to prove if you are MS: the badge and the certificate. The badge looks exactly like the image on the left side below. Both are issued by the Ministry of Physical Culture, Sport and Tourism. Signed by high level official (in the certificate below the Principal Deputy Minister).

Image

I suspect Newguy is correct that Du Cane could have pushed Pavel's titles for marketing purposes. The whole thing was built on the Evil Russian theme - Spetznaz, "deal with it!", "comrade" and other a la Russki stuff. Shit, man, even I fell for it at some point - and I hate both the Army and Crazy Russian stereotypes. From Pavel's point of view though, once you've gone down that road it is very hard to undo it.
Well lets skip all the pleasantries and get down to business....who is the hottie?
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How many souls has she stolen?

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:58 pm

There are some things that indicate Pavel's university training was probably more in dance than in sports science, I think this is what either Maxwell, DuCane, or Cotter asserted after they all fell out. I don't remember who said it but it makes a lot of sense.

It makes sense.

Pavel's first two products were "Beyond Crunches" and "Beyond Stretching"...both of these topics are right in the wheelhouse of having formal training in dance. After that, he was buddies with Fred Cleary, a chiro and a powerlifter, and was working on a book called 'The Rocket Science of Strength Training" with Cleary. He was clearly positioned as a flexibility and ab expert early on in Dragon Door's catalog.

Pavel also was on a short lived Soviet sports forum that Sonnon started, and Mel Siff was also involved for a bit. I wish I could remember what it was called, but it's lost to time.

Also in the past, somewhere after Beyond Crunches but before Return of the Kettlebell were a bunch of articles in John Parillo's magazine, Parillo Performance....at one point you could see these online but I haven't been able to find them for over a decade. I am pretty sure Gallagher worked for Parillo's magazine and this is how they met.

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:01 pm

Sangoma has a good point, it's very likely he took Ducane and maybe even Gallagher's advice on how to market himself

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:03 pm


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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:12 pm

Pavel's first appearance in Parillo Press

http://www.parrilloperformance.com/wp-c ... er1998.pdf

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Re: Pavhole on Rogan

Post by Sangoma » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:22 am

DrDonkeyLove... wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:07 pm
Turdacious wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:42 am
newguy wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:49 am
Sangoma wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:06 am
In Russia it is very easy to prove if you are MS: the badge and the certificate. The badge looks exactly like the image on the left side below. Both are issued by the Ministry of Physical Culture, Sport and Tourism. Signed by high level official (in the certificate below the Principal Deputy Minister).

Image

I suspect Newguy is correct that Du Cane could have pushed Pavel's titles for marketing purposes. The whole thing was built on the Evil Russian theme - Spetznaz, "deal with it!", "comrade" and other a la Russki stuff. Shit, man, even I fell for it at some point - and I hate both the Army and Crazy Russian stereotypes. From Pavel's point of view though, once you've gone down that road it is very hard to undo it.
Well lets skip all the pleasantries and get down to business....who is the hottie?
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How many souls has she stolen?
Idiots, this cert dated 2000. She is ancient now! Very likely fat too.
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