New Russia ban

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Sangoma
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New Russia ban

Post by Sangoma » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:51 pm

I missed it and so seem everyone else. Frankly, I don't really care who dominates sports (except South Africa taking the Rugby Cup! :butthead: ), but the whole affair seems quite interesting.

Anyway, here is an interesting take on the matter.

Banning Russia's flag and anthem is perfect for WADA, whose only concern is optics
"It should be obvious that if anti-doping regulations are to work, they have to be evidence-based and based in science, and follow due process," said Roger Pielke, a University of Colorado scientist and author of, The Edge: The War against Cheating and Corruption in the Cutthroat World of Elite Sports.

WADA fails on all three counts, with a broad and growing "body of evidence of sloppy science and questionable quality control" according to Pielke.
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:38 pm

Ya, I'm bummed for all the sportsmen and women from Russia. The country produces tons of great athletes and everyone knows it. It seems that state-sponsored doping has just taken on a life of its own there. We all know that it happens all over, mind you, but it seems like they have allowed the tail to wag the dog to such an extent that it has become completely self-defeating.
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:00 am

No, they just aren't powerful anymore, therefore people pretend to care. Drugs are pervasive everywhere, it's only condemned when and where it's convenient to do so.

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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:53 am

Doping by athletes in a national team, in any country, is by definition state sponsored. A coach of a national team is employed by the state, and anything he does is state sponsored. Lance Armstrong represented USA Post Office, a State company. Which employed a coach who organised pharmacological support and blood transfusions. Therefore his and the team's doping was state sponsored.
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:41 am

^^My point this is. Doping results disappearing from the USOC's safe = state sponsored.

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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:50 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:53 am
Doping by athletes in a national team, in any country, is by definition state sponsored. A coach of a national team is employed by the state, and anything he does is state sponsored. Lance Armstrong represented USA Post Office, a State company. Which employed a coach who organised pharmacological support and blood transfusions. Therefore his and the team's doping was state sponsored.
I get your point but Russia took it several steps further than that by a creating a coordinated effort by RUSADA, Ministry of Sport, Federal Security Service, and the Center for Sports Preparation of the National Teams of Russia. The investigation by WADA, led by a Canadian, found that Russia had "operated for the protection of doped Russian athletes" within a "state-directed failsafe system" using "the disappearing positive [test] methodology." The investigation found that Russia had used the "Disappearing Positive Methodology" on more than 643 positive samples, at minimum, and that Russia had further blocked access to records that may have substantiated hundreds more.

Now, if your argument is that other individuals and countries cheat, I agree. But if your argument is that Russia wasn't doing anything that other countries don't do, you're wrong.
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Turdacious » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:17 pm

And let's not forget that Sergei and Yulia Skripal poisoned themselves.
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:18 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:50 pm

I get your point but Russia took it several steps further than that by a creating a coordinated effort by RUSADA, Ministry of Sport, Federal Security Service, and the Center for Sports Preparation of the National Teams of Russia. The investigation by WADA, led by a Canadian, found that Russia had "operated for the protection of doped Russian athletes" within a "state-directed failsafe system" using "the disappearing positive [test] methodology." The investigation found that Russia had used the "Disappearing Positive Methodology" on more than 643 positive samples, at minimum, and that Russia had further blocked access to records that may have substantiated hundreds more.

Now, if your argument is that other individuals and countries cheat, I agree. But if your argument is that Russia wasn't doing anything that other countries don't do, you're wrong.
The investigation by a Canadian was a dud. The sequel to that story was completely ignored by the big media. I would recommend reading the whole thing, but below are some highlights.

https://www.thenation.com/article/congr ... eats-time/
This new investigation became the so-called “Independent Person” Report, the independent person (IP) being a Canadian law professor named Richard McLaren.The IP finished his new report, which covers numerous athletes over multiple years, in only 57 days. One explanation for this extraordinary speed on such a complex report is that he questioned no Russian officials. Although some might have wondered about the lack of balance caused by this failure, his report was greeted with great fanfare by the Times and by international media, which did not question—despite vehement denials by Russia and the Russian athletes—the IP’s conclusion of Russian state-sponsored doping based on, as McLaren later put it, “immutable facts.” The report—despite, as described below, its fatal flaws—ultimately led to the banning of hundreds of Russian Olympic and Paralympic athletes, from Rio and PyeongChang combined, without hearings to prove their individual guilt.
The investigation and the report by the Court of Arbitration for Sport, dismissed the Canadian results.
Not only was Rodchenkov cross-examined for the first time at the CAS hearings, but so was McLaren. The results were devastating. Despite that devastation—or perhaps because of it—these CAS decisions are not well known, primarily for one reason: the paltry coverage of the Times, especially compared to the countless column inches the Times had devoted to the now-discredited accounts of Rodchenkov and McLaren regarding the involvement of individual athletes in the doping scandal.
The French professor utterly failed in this task. First, according to the published CAS decisions, there was no evidence about what the Russians allegedly did to open the bottles. The expert “conceded that his team had ‘no idea’ what tools were actually used by any individuals who tampered with the Sochi samples,” i.e., he was engaging in guesswork on what tools to use and how to use them.

Second, the forensic professor admitted that the conditions under which his team opened the bottles were drastically different from what happened in Sochi. For example, in the professor’s work, the bottles were closed only partially, and the bottles were empty, not full with urine as they would have been in Sochi. These two facts together are particularly significant because the French professor did not know whether the bottles in Sochi were turned upside down to perform the opening, and he admitted to the panel that the bottles can leak if they are only partially closed. Of course, the bottles were not empty at Sochi at the relevant time, so there is no purpose at all—no probative value—to open empty bottles, as the French professor did.

More important, there is absolutely no evidence at all that the bottles in Sochi were not fully closed, per the manufacturer’s instructions. The athletes were supposed to close the bottles initially, and this closure had to be double-checked by WADA Drug Control Officers (DCOs). Therefore, for Rodchenkov’s story to work, the DCOs would have to be co-conspirators in the alleged state-sponsored doping scheme. As the CAS decisions noted, “The Panel did not find any support for the suggestion advanced by the IOC, that the DCOs at the doping control stations could potentially be involved by allowing the athletes not to fully close their sample bottles.”
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:53 pm

As I said, I don't care much about sport results. I have a serious dislike of bureaucrats, a class of parasites that jump at every opportunity to demonstrate the necessity of their existence. WADA is a leech sucking blood out of hard working athletes. As mentioned in the earlier Washington Post article I posted above, they are inconsistent and inefficient. And they get away with it all the time.

You don't have to dig deep to understand what's going on. The ban is not just about denying somebody a chance to win a medal and taking away potential glory from the country. Follow the money. A high level athlete - and to be one one must participate in major international events - creates a lot of business. Take him away - take income from a lot of people. Half-assed investigations allow the players to boycott events held in Russia. Russia was forced to withdraw from hosting several international events in the last several years: Biathlon World Cup stage in Tyumen, Biathlon Junior World Championship in Ostrov. Speed Skating World Cup stage was relocated from Chelyabinsk. Russia has been removed as host of the 2016–17 FIS Cross-Country World Cup final stage and 2021 World Biathlon Championships in Tyumen.

That's what it's really about.

The funniest thing is the ban of weightlifters. Should be a clean sport, right?
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:14 pm

Yes, it's really odd that he couldn't interview the officials and athletes in Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_A ... ing_Agency

In February 2016, two high-ranking directors of RUSADA — Vyacheslav Sinyev and Nikita Kamayev — died. According to Sunday Times, Kamayev approached the news agency shortly before his death planning to publish a book on "the true story of sport pharmacology and doping in Russia since 1987".

So weird that other Russian officials didn't cooperate. :-"
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Turdacious » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:21 am

My bet is that the Russian branch of the Freides family is closely watching Sangoma's posts and regularly reminds him that they know where he and his family live.
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Re: New Russia ban

Post by Sangoma » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:51 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:14 pm
Yes, it's really odd that he couldn't interview the officials and athletes in Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_A ... ing_Agency

In February 2016, two high-ranking directors of RUSADA — Vyacheslav Sinyev and Nikita Kamayev — died. According to Sunday Times, Kamayev approached the news agency shortly before his death planning to publish a book on "the true story of sport pharmacology and doping in Russia since 1987".

So weird that other Russian officials didn't cooperate. :-"
Must have been killed by Novichok.
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