Economy or Minimizing Risk?

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Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:01 am

Floridians will be keeping their distance and wearing face masks for up to a year until a COVID-19 vaccine exists, Florida Surgeon General Scott Rivkees said Monday before being whisked away by the governor’s spokeswoman.

Rivkees told reporters that Floridians needed to get used to current precautions, such as avoiding crowds of 10 or more and wearing face masks in public.

“Until we get a vaccine, which is a while off, this is going to be our new normal and we need to adapt and protect ourselves,” he said.


The surgeon general’s comments appear to conflict with what Gov. Ron DeSantis and his political ally, President Donald Trump, have said about returning to pre-coronavirus life. Practicing social distancing for a year in order to prevent a second wave of outbreaks could take a significant toll on the economy, which has already ground to a halt.

Both DeSantis and Trump have worried that closing the economy that long would be a cure worse than the disease, although public health experts have warned that a quick return to normal could be dangerous.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/20 ... eral-says/
There are very real risks with both positions. What direction should we take going forward?
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by DrDonkeyLove... » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:16 am

When massive 15 minute tests are available on very short notice everywhere and the treatment protocols are dialed in nationwide, it's time to work back to something near normal. Along with some continued social distancing and disinfecting rules that can be dialed up or down depending on local circumstances.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:43 am

By framing it this way you are buying into the messaging of the authoritarian leftists who want to restrict everything and replace a real economy with government handouts, which you then have to apply for and which can be revoked if you aren't a good boy. Oh wait I was gendering you. It's isn't a matter of "the economy" as an entity consisting of stock prices and balance sheets, it's our entire way of living: you go where you want, including to a non-approved store if you want, to buy some non-approved items, which there's no one to tell you it's a non-approved item anyway, and no cop doing a search to see if your bag contains non-approved items, and a populace that would rightly refuse to let a cop search your shopping if one were to demand it.

I can't believe you people, and by you people I mean virtually all people. You've long accepted that you can't hire who you want, have to rent to who they want, work for who they want, do business with who they want, buy only approved items, and submit to being stopped and searched, and your property stolen at gunpoint by any cop who feels like it. You've accepted that you can't say certain things (and they don't give you a list because they want the chilling effect upon speech) and have to say certain other things. Now you have to behave according to government decree: stand this far apart, can only leave the house for an approved length activity of an approved type, and jump through all kinds of hoops and then sit up and beg for a treat from your master, and you have to wag your tail just right or you won't get any more.

Here's what's coming: inflation, probably hyperinflation; widespread poverty; more asset seizures since they have to pay for things somehow and there aren't enough people working to pay the higher taxes that are coming; brand new taxes no one thought of before; and a permanently reduced standard of living and inhibited and restricted way of living.

There are all these articles praising people for being dutifully obedient. Some of them spin this as people being responsible but it's nothing of the kind: people who smoke cigarettes, incur excess debt, drink too much and take too much of their drugs of choice, text and drive, don't vote in local elections, and couldn't tell you who their elected representatives are didn't become so responsible overnight: They are servile. They submit. They surrender.

Why are there so few servings of media criticizing the lockdown and none at all suggesting that people ignore or resist it?

The scary and horrifying thing to me is, you all want this. You don't want freedom and independence. You want to be slaves. You hate freedom since you never had any and it scares you. You've become so psychologically stunted that you hate freedom and those who have it.

You read 1984 and took it as an instruction manual. You not only don't mind Big Brother, you want it.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:50 am

Let's see, tests: So now a cop can stop you and stick a needle in you. He can demand that you stand there like a bad dog until the result shows up, and then you either go in the paddy wagon or patted on the head and told you're a good boy and may proceed, as long as you're going to an approved location for an approved activity. At best you have to show your papers on demand, which will be used as a pretext for whatever else they can think up on the spot. Oh wait I must be paranoid, because no cops anywhere have ever exceeded or abused authority.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:21 am

"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 am

Your embrace of Hollywood, faggotry, and yellow fever all at once is touching. Good boy. Have a treat.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by nafod » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:18 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:01 am
There are very real risks with both positions. What direction should we take going forward?
If we hadn’t shut down the economy, the virus case load including fatalities would be doubling twice each week, we’d be heading for 80,000 dead by this coming Monday and 160,000 dead a week from now. Exponential growth is explosive.

But of course people would freak out and shut it down themselves without the government telling them to. We’re not total lemmings.

When Desantis and the PumpkinFuhrer tell folks to go to the restaurants with masks on and hang out, if the case load starts doubling again (it will, but at a much lower rate) I predict people will self-manage. Skip crowded places and stay home. The masses saw New York and don’t want to experience that.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:28 pm

Living Paycheck to Paycheck is a Way of Life for Majority of U.S. Workers, According to New CareerBuilder Survey
Study Highlights:
- 78 percent of U.S. workers live paycheck to paycheck to make ends meet
- Nearly one in 10 workers making $100,000+ live paycheck to paycheck
- More than 1 in 4 workers do not set aside any savings each month
- Nearly 3 in 4 workers say they are in debt today - more than half think they will always be
- More than half of minimum wage workers say they have to work more than one job to make ends meet
http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08- ... der-Survey
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by nafod » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:09 pm

There's technology readily available for workers like bus drivers to be wearing a PAPR (feeds you filtered air into a loose mask over your head) to avoid infection. These sorts of things need to be put into use ASAP for the workers, in order to relax the restrictions.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:16 pm

motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:50 am
Let's see, tests: So now a cop can stop you and stick a needle in you. He can demand that you stand there like a bad dog until the result shows up, and then you either go in the paddy wagon or patted on the head and told you're a good boy and may proceed, as long as you're going to an approved location for an approved activity. At best you have to show your papers on demand, which will be used as a pretext for whatever else they can think up on the spot. Oh wait I must be paranoid, because no cops anywhere have ever exceeded or abused authority.
This isn't happening anywhere. Maybe DPRK and China, but there are democratic governments weeks/months ahead of us and that's not happening.

I don't see how a draft can be fine constitutionally, but temp checks and nasal swabs are so far beyond the pale.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:33 pm

There are two things keeping us from getting back to normal. The first is easy and readily available tests with contact tracing, the second is effective treatment. A third could be widely available n95 masks. And none of those are a years away thing. Once we can test quickly then we can know if someone has it and isolate. If we can dial in how to make this less deadly and not need ventilators, then we can make catching it less of an issue.

Better masks and protective gear for the public will be useful if we do need to lock down an area for a week or two. People can still be out and about doing their thing and minimize the spread.

Here is the problem with a vaccine. Americans are stupid. I was just having a conversation with someone and they were saying even if a vaccine came out they would not get it. They wouldn't let their children get it. Too worried about the health risks. Now, maybe they are right. Maybe they are wrong. But they sill aren't getting it and without enough people getting it no herd immunity.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:47 pm

More than 2,100 U.S. cities are anticipating major budget shortfalls this year and many are planning to slash programs and cut staff in response, according to a survey of local officials released Tuesday, illustrating the widespread financial havoc threatened by the coronavirus pandemic.
The bleak outlook — shared by local governments representing roughly 93 million people nationwide — led some top mayors and other leaders to call for greater federal aid to protect cities now forced to choose between balancing their cash-strapped ledgers and sustaining the public services that residents need most.
“There’s no question that the coronavirus pandemic has had, and will have, a major impact on cities of all sizes,” said Clarence Anthony, the executive director of the National League of Cities.
The NLC joined with the U.S. Conference of Mayors to conduct the early inquiry into the economic effects of the novel coronavirus, finding many local governments are bracing for sharp declines in tax revenue as businesses shutter, workers lose their jobs in record numbers and tourism grinds to a halt.
Nearly nine in 10 cities surveyed — from smaller hubs with populations of fewer than 50,000 to the largest metropolitan areas in the country — signaled they expect a revenue shortfall. Among them, more than 1,100 cities are preparing to scale back public services, the survey found. Almost 600 cities predicted they may have to lay off some government workers amid the crunch. Local leaders in 1,000 cities said the reductions probably would affect their local police departments and other public safety agencies.
The findings inject new urgency into a simmering congressional debate over Washington’s role in safeguarding cash-starved cities and states from financial ruin. Local governments generally cannot run deficits, unlike the nation’s capital, leaving them no choice but to slash spending or raise taxes — absent more federal support.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... r-BB12Bmz5
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:58 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:09 pm
There's technology readily available for workers like bus drivers to be wearing a PAPR (feeds you filtered air into a loose mask over your head) to avoid infection. These sorts of things need to be put into use ASAP for the workers, in order to relax the restrictions.
What impact would those measures have in the service sectors? Those folks generally don't make a lot, often have underreported income (cash tips-- which means they're really taking a hit on unemployment), are often still building their marketable skills, and often don't have as many transportation options as the rest of us.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:29 pm

It's not clear that the deaths would have increased that much. There doesn't seem to be a pattern in outbreak curve between nations that did a lot and those that did little.

It's not an exponential curve, it's an epidemiological curve. The progress would flatten out and decline in any event.

We aren't counting the extra deaths due to isolation, especially among old people. We also aren't counting the extra deaths from people being unable to pay their heating bills this coming winter due to being out of work for months. We aren't counting increased deaths from people not getting as much medical care for non Covid chronic conditions.

We aren't counting decreased quality of life. We aren't counting the debts which no nation can afford and which most cities in the U.S., as pointed out above, legally cannot incur. But slashing services will get them into trouble with their state governments, which (at least in some states) require cities to provide services. Which will result in more deaths, some from reduced fire protection, some from cops being so busy enforcing Covid measures that they aren't on patrol reducing actual crime, some from cities laying off cops or maybe having the power company turn off their streetlights. That last sounds like a joke but historically it has happened, some cities have had the power company turn off their streetlights due to nonpayment.

Where are these trillions of dollars coming from? From us. It took Britain decades to pay off the debts from WWII, at the cost of reduced quality of life for millions.

No one seems to care that the largest spending bill in U.S. history passed without a recorded vote. No one is questioning any of these decrees. In Michigan, for example, people are being prohibited from going to their second homes. If slowing the outbreak is important shouldn't we want people to go to a less dense area?

Here's a Dr giving his views on our handling of this


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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:41 pm

It's very funny to me.

All the Karens (lot's of male Karens out there surprisingly) screaming about JUST ONE LIFE and PROTECT MY KIDS and IT's GOING EXPONENTIAL are gonna get ignored once the power tripping Govs realize that revenue is non-existent and things like CALPERS continue to exist.

Cuomo and Newsome are gonna open it up because they have to for economic reasons. And this whole thing about months of lockdown was a charade. Everyone knew it was not going to happen BECAUSE OF THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS THEY PRETENDED THEY WEREN''T DOING. They took what they could and tried to maximize their gains politically but it was all a work. And the Karens are gonna go along with it because they can't see the cog dissonance.

Male and female hysterics please consider yourselves having been used like a rube at a pro-wrestling match.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:49 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:58 pm
nafod wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:09 pm
There's technology readily available for workers like bus drivers to be wearing a PAPR (feeds you filtered air into a loose mask over your head) to avoid infection. These sorts of things need to be put into use ASAP for the workers, in order to relax the restrictions.
What impact would those measures have in the service sectors? Those folks generally don't make a lot, often have underreported income (cash tips-- which means they're really taking a hit on unemployment), are often still building their marketable skills, and often don't have as many transportation options as the rest of us.
We're going to do what everyone in the know knew we were going to from a few days into this mess: open the economy up with little to no changes to the status quo.

It's been obvious this wasn't going to swamp the ERs for weeks now. It's likely it was never going to because it's been here for months and months.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:58 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:41 pm
It's very funny to me.

All the Karens (lot's of male Karens out there surprisingly) screaming about JUST ONE LIFE and PROTECT MY KIDS and IT's GOING EXPONENTIAL are gonna get ignored once the power tripping Govs realize that revenue is non-existent and things like CALPERS continue to exist.

Cuomo and Newsome are gonna open it up because they have to for economic reasons. And this whole thing about months of lockdown was a charade. Everyone knew it was not going to happen BECAUSE OF THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS THEY PRETENDED THEY WEREN''T DOING. They took what they could and tried to maximize their gains politically but it was all a work. And the Karens are gonna go along with it because they can't see the cog dissonance.

Male and female hysterics please consider yourselves having been used like a rube at a pro-wrestling match.
Benny off the top rope with a calm, cool, and collected dropkick to the panic stricken Chicken Little motherfuckers running this country.

OPEN UP THE GYMS!

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by nafod » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:45 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:58 pm
nafod wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:09 pm
There's technology readily available for workers like bus drivers to be wearing a PAPR (feeds you filtered air into a loose mask over your head) to avoid infection. These sorts of things need to be put into use ASAP for the workers, in order to relax the restrictions.
What impact would those measures have in the service sectors? Those folks generally don't make a lot, often have underreported income (cash tips-- which means they're really taking a hit on unemployment), are often still building their marketable skills, and often don't have as many transportation options as the rest of us.
I was thinking of the workers at the pork plant, shut down in South Dakota. Or technical workers at a car plant, servers at a drive-thru or drive-in restaurant. How about a Jetsons-themed restaurant? Drive-in theatres could make a comeback.

The tech exists to keep germs away from everyone. It will look awkward, until it looks normal.

We are planning to maintain this new status quo of interaction until Christmas.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:04 am

Dude I know Orange Man Is Bad Really Bad and Violates Norms but there is no fucking way a country whose neolib and neocon elites are devoted to depressing wages via mass immigration of 3rd World street shitters and mexicans and chinks and happily let SF (the greatest city in the World) turn into an actual open sewer is going to pony up for some paradigm shifting future of supreme cleanliness.

You are hysterical or talking about some Fed Gov pipedream. God damn Feds never miss a fucking paycheck and think the whole world just gets magic money. IT'S JUST A FEW POINTS OFF YOUR 401k. Idiots.

State's can't run deficits or declare BKY.

They are going to go back to how it was. There is no other option. There never has been any other option. Even if it had been an extinction lvl event bioweapon, they still would have sent everyone back to work.

And they were always gonna do it no matter how deadly the Chinese Lung Rot was.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:30 am

Part of the problem is that some of the things the people most at risk (old people) can do to mitigate their risk, like online shopping/ordering, are the kinds of things they often lack the technical savvy to do or really need the personal contact (for their mental well being) from doing things the old fashioned way.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:42 am

If going to the store was a sig vector for transmission then the social distancing was useless. Everyone goes to the store.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:12 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:42 am
If going to the store was a sig vector for transmission then the social distancing was useless. Everyone goes to the store.
https://grocery.walmart.com/locations/pickup/
Less impulse buying and saves time-- win win.
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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:31 pm

That's non-responsive.

So, I'll say it again: If shopping at a grocery store is a sig vector of transmission, then the self-quarantining and physical distancing were useless.

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Turdacious » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:38 pm

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Re: Economy or Minimizing Risk?

Post by Boris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:26 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:04 am
They are going to go back to how it was. There is no other option. There never has been any other option. Even if it had been an extinction lvl event bioweapon, they still would have sent everyone back to work.

And they were always gonna do it no matter how deadly the Chinese Lung Rot was.
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