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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:42 am 
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Continuing with stupid questions... I have seen the following progression template quite often:

Microcycles:
1. 8 sets of 3 steps of a given weight
2. 6 sets of 4 reps
3. 5 sets of 5 reps
4. 4 sets of 6 reps
5. 3 sets of 8 reps

How would you classify that? Volume (reps x sets) and intensity (weight lifted) stay the same every workout. Does this actually make sense?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:50 am 
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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
99% of that fiber type shit is theoretical and not super determinative. Who here know their fiber type? no one does because no one here has had dozens and dozens of muscle biopsies...so until then, jog on with that crap..there are very very few snowflakes..most of us are made of the same meat.


I have always been wondering about my predominant fiber types: I lift like pussy and I am a shit runner. What the fuck!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:01 am 
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Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
99% of that fiber type shit is theoretical and not super determinative. Who here know their fiber type? no one does because no one here has had dozens and dozens of muscle biopsies...so until then, jog on with that crap..there are very very few snowflakes..most of us are made of the same meat.


I have always been wondering about my predominant fiber types: I lift like pussy and I am a shit runner. What the fuck!

You have an aversion to hard work. :happiness:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Sangoma wrote:
Continuing with stupid questions... I have seen the following progression template quite often:

Microcycles:
1. 8 sets of 3 steps of a given weight
2. 6 sets of 4 reps
3. 5 sets of 5 reps
4. 4 sets of 6 reps
5. 3 sets of 8 reps

How would you classify that? Volume (reps x sets) and intensity (weight lifted) stay the same every workout. Does this actually make sense?


There are a lot of different ways you can measure increasing work capacity/strength, whatever. Total volume is one (Just the ability to do more at X.) Increasing intensity is another. (X is getting bigger.)

In this case, what is increasing? Your ability to do more reps per set. So while total volume and intensity are staying the same, your able to do more with less segments (sets.) If you standardize the rest between sets, you have a real sense of getting stronger.

Another thing.....Volume, intensity, density, etc....they don't all have to increase session by session. They don't even need to all increase over the course of a cycle. So with the above cycle, you might not see an increase in volume, this time, or of intensity. But at the end, you are presumably stronger so you can handle more weight. You repeat the cycle with more weight, volume has risen. You add a few back off sets the next time.......

Improvements happen over time.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:24 pm 
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If you can do 3 sets of 8 after five weeks with a weight you were using for triples, it was likely too light to get much of a training effect out of triples.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Sangoma wrote:
Continuing with stupid questions... I have seen the following progression template quite often:

Microcycles:
1. 8 sets of 3 steps of a given weight
2. 6 sets of 4 reps
3. 5 sets of 5 reps
4. 4 sets of 6 reps
5. 3 sets of 8 reps

How would you classify that? Volume (reps x sets) and intensity (weight lifted) stay the same every workout. Does this actually make sense?



I use it. It's neither volume nor intensity really as it sits alone out of context. It's a straight up progression to build tolerance to high reps sets...as a precursor to....you guessed it Volume with higher reps sets.

Often people will see a program with 8's and 10's and say..Oh I see you';re doing volume. As you can see form that progression the volume is exactly the same. Reps do not mean volume...total number of working reps in a microcycle is volume. I use that method to get people focused on being able to rep out formerly challenging weights so that they can easily shift form the end of that progression...3 sets of 8 to working at or above that weigth for 4-6 sets of 6 to 7...that is alot ov volume and a lot of stimulus for hypertrophy...again...

Rep range targets the specific adaptation. High sets low reps (high % of 1rm) is working volume to build strength
High numbers of sets with high numbers reps (a lower % of 1rm) is working on build hypertrophy...which can be useful for buildign strength in a subsequent block.

BJ is sort of correct...you wouldn't get much of a training effect out of the triples.(8x3) But every good progression starts BELOW your capacity to able to build towards working above your former capacity. 8x3 translates SE towards being able to do 4x6...which begins to get challenging and IS having a significant training effect.

NewGuy nails it...Time.

TIME...where is a given progression at in time relative to what preceded it and what happens after it? Stop thinking of these things in 3 dimensions. This is not algebra it's calculus.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
99% of that fiber type shit is theoretical and not super determinative. Who here know their fiber type? no one does because no one here has had dozens and dozens of muscle biopsies...so until then, jog on with that crap..there are very very few snowflakes..most of us are made of the same meat.


I have always been wondering about my predominant fiber types: I lift like pussy and I am a shit runner. What the fuck!



The sad truth is ...everyone is a pussy and training to be a notpussy is completely doable.

There are no hard gainers. Only people starting in a hole or people unwilling to compromise expectations for progress.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
High sets low reps (high % of 1rm) is working volume to build strength.

I assume "low reps" means in the 3-6 range.
What number does "high sets" mean? 5-ish?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:00 pm 
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JimZipCode wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
High sets low reps (high % of 1rm) is working volume to build strength.

I assume "low reps" means in the 3-6 range.
What number does "high sets" mean? 5-ish?


In my mind lowish is 1-4. High is 5-10...in some cases more where strempf is not the primary focus.

Low reps high sets is anything that would take you over the fairly typical low to moderate adaptive workload of 10-15 reps with a weight over 80%. I think someone coined a term for it that now escapes me but the minimum amount to make some observable progress.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:58 am 
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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Work capacity is a trainable quality. This is where the HIT and Heavy Duty and Hardgainers of years past went wrong.



we were joking the other night about "hardgainers"

No one could recall seeing a hard gainer who did the basics with good form.

Or one that ate breakfast, or didn't fritter away their sleep on a regular basis because they were gaming or binge watching some dumbass series on Netflix...

Things are a little more complex for working adults with a family and responsibilities beyond training, of course, and if your goals are soft maybe it doesn't matter that much. But, generally, training should show an upward trend of volume with many peaks and valleys and long plateaus. I don't know why this is even a discussion...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:08 am 
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Minimum effective dose.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:14 am 
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Boris wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Work capacity is a trainable quality. This is where the HIT and Heavy Duty and Hardgainers of years past went wrong.



we were joking the other night about "hardgainers"

No one could recall seeing a hard gainer who did the basics with good form.

Or one that ate breakfast, or didn't fritter away their sleep on a regular basis because they were gaming or binge watching some dumbass series on Netflix...

Things are a little more complex for working adults with a family and responsibilities beyond training, of course, and if your goals are soft maybe it doesn't matter that much. But, generally, training should show an upward trend of volume with many peaks and valleys and long plateaus. I don't know why this is even a discussion...



breakfast. Another one of those....no idea why I need t eat when I am not hungry.....but it absolutely works.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:44 am 
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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Boris wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Work capacity is a trainable quality. This is where the HIT and Heavy Duty and Hardgainers of years past went wrong.



we were joking the other night about "hardgainers"

No one could recall seeing a hard gainer who did the basics with good form.

Or one that ate breakfast, or didn't fritter away their sleep on a regular basis because they were gaming or binge watching some dumbass series on Netflix...

Things are a little more complex for working adults with a family and responsibilities beyond training, of course, and if your goals are soft maybe it doesn't matter that much. But, generally, training should show an upward trend of volume with many peaks and valleys and long plateaus. I don't know why this is even a discussion...



breakfast. Another one of those....no idea why I need t eat when I am not hungry.....but it absolutely works.


You are so close to becoming the next Dan John and you don't even know it.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:17 am 
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You wound me, Sir.

Most impressive. I'm not sure whether to send you flowers or close my account.

Seriously though. Fucking nutrients...Who knew???

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Boris wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Work capacity is a trainable quality. This is where the HIT and Heavy Duty and Hardgainers of years past went wrong.



we were joking the other night about "hardgainers"

No one could recall seeing a hard gainer who did the basics with good form.

Or one that ate breakfast, or didn't fritter away their sleep on a regular basis because they were gaming or binge watching some dumbass series on Netflix...

Things are a little more complex for working adults with a family and responsibilities beyond training, of course, and if your goals are soft maybe it doesn't matter that much. But, generally, training should show an upward trend of volume with many peaks and valleys and long plateaus. I don't know why this is even a discussion...


My guess is, as to why it is a discussion, is because people (raising my hand here), have trouble balancing long term goals and planning with short term needs. Especially people who are not coaches or coached.

Good coaches...strength, track, powerlifting, whatever, are well versed in taking an athlete through a long process of progression. Years not weeks. (Well not fitness coaches. Those guys seem to think in 6 week blocks.) They take people through definite stages....beginner, intermediate, advanced.....they understand that to get from level X to level Z you need to do this....and that the progress is not going to be linear.

Regular people, like me, have trouble establishing long term goals and sketching out multi year plans to meet them. Let alone sticking with anything more than six weeks.

We get bored...we're stupid....we follow whatever we hear even if it has no bearing to what we did the last six weeks......I am going to build my deadlift this month! Hey, I think this month I am going to work on kayaking....progress in something takes effort over years...not weeks.

I was actually just thinking of these two things. A multi-year plan for running.......as well as the difference between me, a guy who just goes out and runs, vs. my coworker who is part of a running club. She has running friends, they train together, they have "coaches" who plan out their schedules leading up to big races.......everything she does is meshed in with her running club. She is much more likely to keep running vs. me. There is no one I let down if I don't go out for my long run...no one is messaging me if I don't show up Tuesday for a tempo run.

Here is the multi-year running plan I came up with for myself: Basic goal, to be able to run 5/10k distances FAST.

Year one (this year) - 1 weekend long run (cap at 10) 1 short, harder run (3-5 miles) each week. Slowly integrate a third "slow run."
Run the April 5K....find good target fall 10K.
Year two - 1 weekend long, 2 short, "harder" runs each week. (3-5). Slowly integrate a 4th "slow" run over the course of the year. (on weekend.) (4 runs per week.)
Run the April 5K and the fall 10K
Year three - 1 weekend long, 1 weekend slow. 1 week day medium. 1 weekday speed session. (4 runs per week.)
Follow an intermediate level plan for the 5K and 10K.

A "long run" can be substituted with a fun run. Fun run is just to cover distance well and enjoy self, up to half marathon distance. Speed/time goals are for the April 5K and the the fall 10K.
--
Over the course of three years that would take me from 2-3 days a week to 4 days a week. It might be a shitty plan. But it is thinking about progression over the course of years as opposed to weeks.

Now contrast that with what I will actually do......next month I'll think "I need to ramp this up!" and start trying to run every day and add hills and sprints. My knees will start hurting and I'll think...."This suck! I should go back to kettlebells." Then after a couple of weeks...."why did I give up running! I was feeling great!" And my first run back I'll try to go 7 miles even though the most I'd gone while I was training was 6 because I decide I want to run the local marathon in 8 weeks......

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:34 am 
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newguy wrote:
Boris wrote:
Things are a little more complex for working adults with a family and responsibilities beyond training, of course, and if your goals are soft maybe it doesn't matter that much. But, generally, training should show an upward trend of volume with many peaks and valleys and long plateaus. I don't know why this is even a discussion...


My guess is, as to why it is a discussion, is because people (raising my hand here), have trouble balancing long term goals and planning with short term needs. Especially people who are not coaches or coached.

I meant I don't know why a discussion about the relative importance of volume (as this is at least the second thread where it's being questioned) is even needed. I think the topic of how to train yourself is always worthwhile and complex.
Quote:
Good coaches...strength, track, powerlifting, whatever, are well versed in taking an athlete through a long process of progression. Years not weeks. (Well not fitness coaches. Those guys seem to think in 6 week blocks.) They take people through definite stages....beginner, intermediate, advanced.....they understand that to get from level X to level Z you need to do this....and that the progress is not going to be linear.

Regular people, like me, have trouble establishing long term goals and sketching out multi year plans to meet them. Let alone sticking with anything more than six weeks.

We get bored...we're stupid....we follow whatever we hear even if it has no bearing to what we did the last six weeks......I am going to build my deadlift this month! Hey, I think this month I am going to work on kayaking....progress in something takes effort over years...not weeks.

It's not a bad thing to plan for six weeks, execute, reflect, plan, execute, reflect, plan, etc. (plan -> do -> study -> act, a kind of OODA loop). You just have to keep the goal the goal and keep doing it. Over time, it will work.

Quote:
Here is the multi-year running plan I came up with for myself: Basic goal, to be able to run 5/10k distances FAST.

Year one (this year) - 1 weekend long run (cap at 10) 1 short, harder run (3-5 miles) each week. Slowly integrate a third "slow run."
Run the April 5K....find good target fall 10K.
Year two - 1 weekend long, 2 short, "harder" runs each week. (3-5). Slowly integrate a 4th "slow" run over the course of the year. (on weekend.) (4 runs per week.)
Run the April 5K and the fall 10K
Year three - 1 weekend long, 1 weekend slow. 1 week day medium. 1 weekday speed session. (4 runs per week.)
Follow an intermediate level plan for the 5K and 10K.

A "long run" can be substituted with a fun run. Fun run is just to cover distance well and enjoy self, up to half marathon distance. Speed/time goals are for the April 5K and the the fall 10K.
--
Over the course of three years that would take me from 2-3 days a week to 4 days a week. It might be a shitty plan. But it is thinking about progression over the course of years as opposed to weeks.

If this works for you, great, but it would be almost too long term for me to be useful.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:34 am 
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double post


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:50 am 
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Boris wrote:
newguy wrote:
Boris wrote:
Things are a little more complex for working adults with a family and responsibilities beyond training, of course, and if your goals are soft maybe it doesn't matter that much. But, generally, training should show an upward trend of volume with many peaks and valleys and long plateaus. I don't know why this is even a discussion...


My guess is, as to why it is a discussion, is because people (raising my hand here), have trouble balancing long term goals and planning with short term needs. Especially people who are not coaches or coached.

I meant I don't know why a discussion about the relative importance of volume (as this is at least the second thread where it's being questioned) is even needed. I think the topic of how to train yourself is always worthwhile and complex.
Quote:
Good coaches...strength, track, powerlifting, whatever, are well versed in taking an athlete through a long process of progression. Years not weeks. (Well not fitness coaches. Those guys seem to think in 6 week blocks.) They take people through definite stages....beginner, intermediate, advanced.....they understand that to get from level X to level Z you need to do this....and that the progress is not going to be linear.

Regular people, like me, have trouble establishing long term goals and sketching out multi year plans to meet them. Let alone sticking with anything more than six weeks.

We get bored...we're stupid....we follow whatever we hear even if it has no bearing to what we did the last six weeks......I am going to build my deadlift this month! Hey, I think this month I am going to work on kayaking....progress in something takes effort over years...not weeks.

It's not a bad thing to plan for six weeks, execute, reflect, plan, execute, reflect, plan, etc. (plan -> do -> study -> act, a kind of OODA loop). You just have to keep the goal the goal and keep doing it. Over time, it will work.

Quote:
Here is the multi-year running plan I came up with for myself: Basic goal, to be able to run 5/10k distances FAST.

Year one (this year) - 1 weekend long run (cap at 10) 1 short, harder run (3-5 miles) each week. Slowly integrate a third "slow run."
Run the April 5K....find good target fall 10K.
Year two - 1 weekend long, 2 short, "harder" runs each week. (3-5). Slowly integrate a 4th "slow" run over the course of the year. (on weekend.) (4 runs per week.)
Run the April 5K and the fall 10K
Year three - 1 weekend long, 1 weekend slow. 1 week day medium. 1 weekday speed session. (4 runs per week.)
Follow an intermediate level plan for the 5K and 10K.

A "long run" can be substituted with a fun run. Fun run is just to cover distance well and enjoy self, up to half marathon distance. Speed/time goals are for the April 5K and the the fall 10K.
--
Over the course of three years that would take me from 2-3 days a week to 4 days a week. It might be a shitty plan. But it is thinking about progression over the course of years as opposed to weeks.

If this works for you, great, but it would be almost too long term for me to be useful.


Well.....it is more of a thought experiment than anything else.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:06 pm 
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If you want to be competent. Good, or incredible at something you have to put in the work. Talent and genetics matters but you got what you got. The only thing you control is the work you put in. Yes life interferes, but all of us with high end training results have lots of other things in our lives besides training. But we make it happen. Maybe a bit less Halo or hanging at happy hour or a week in a shitty place with a Bunch of idiots. Although I have done 2 of the 3 plenty. Actually though a lot more showing up and getting work in when I didn't feel like it, eating when I didn't feel like it, and going home to bed when I didn't feel like it more often than not. I am no saint in any respect, but you live your life and you show up. You waste more time than you know. Stop wasting it. Train. Eat. Sleep. It works as good as anything. And guess what, the other things in your life will get better as you do it. Weird.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:26 pm 
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powerlifter54 wrote:
If you want to be competent. Good, or incredible at something you have to put in the work. Talent and genetics matters but you got what you got. The only thing you control is the work you put in. Yes life interferes, but all of us with high end training results have lots of other things in our lives besides training. But we make it happen. Maybe a bit less Halo or hanging at happy hour or a week in a shitty place with a Bunch of idiots. Although I have done 2 of the 3 plenty. Actually though a lot more showing up and getting work in when I didn't feel like it, eating when I didn't feel like it, and going home to bed when I didn't feel like it more often than not. I am no saint in any respect, but you live your life and you show up. You waste more time than you know. Stop wasting it. Train. Eat. Sleep. It works as good as anything. And guess what, the other things in your life will get better as you do it. Weird.

100% agree with this. I work 12 hour days, 5 days/week at a fairly physical job that can heap on a good bit of stress to boot. Recently got back into lifting again, and felt myself slowly circling the drain trying to keep up with all the stuff I wanted to do. Sleep was getting pushed out.

The wife and I have been trying to minimize our lives to prepare for our next phase. So on top of getting rid of all the useless clutter around the house we've been cutting out many of the useless time sucks that would ad up to hours a week. Now we spend Sundays getting meals cooked so the food is a no brainer. We wind down by listening to podcasts or reading instead of watching TV most nights.

We joined a PL gym between my house and my work, so it's never a question of whether I'm going to turn the bike into the parking lot or not. If we paid for it, we're for damn sure going to use it. I've got a program to follow for at least the next 16 weeks, so that's on as much auto pilot as possible. Just slowly reducing anything that that could get in the way.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:37 pm 
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powerlifter54 wrote:
I am no saint in any respect, but you live your life and you show up. You waste more time than you know. Stop wasting it. Train. Eat. Sleep. It works as good as anything. And guess what, the other things in your life will get better as you do it. Weird.


There's a constant back and forth I see between needing to allocate resources narrowly and the very real phenomena that bodies in motion tend to stay in motion.....When you have momentum in one thing it can extend to others

Those who realize the results of their efforts (however narrow or broad, from finish a marathon to being national level competitor in your chosen sport) I *think* share a common trait (innate or learned). This trait is that they recognize there's a time and place for both (know when to hold them, know when to fold em, consolidate and hunker down or go big advance on all fronts).

Knowing which is which results in exactly what Jack is on about with the last bit of the paragraph above. Your life does just get better. Do this right and 2+2=5

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