Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Luke » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:30 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:11 pm
Luke wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:56 am
Sound advice in here.

If this has become psychological for you, or you're really hammering the exercise to no avail (although a 10% increase like nafod said is progress!) - you could try a conjugate approach - flutter kicks for time? band-resisted raises? Ankle weights like you suggested...

There was a hamstring curl machine where I just couldn't push past a certain threshold with my left leg once. I didn't do it that frequently, or thought too much of it, but still, when everything was going up it did bug me that didn't. Not a dumb goal!
Thanks. There is defo a mental thing going on but I'm still a long way from 100. I would bet my endurance level is enough for 60. Going to spend some time working with increasing tempo without letting my back arch. The negative will have to be done much faster (let gravity do as much as possible) I think and the positive much more explosive.

Flutter kicks? Is that the one done on your belly? Like swimming? Or on the back? After the leg raises I do two sets alternate straight leg raises and then some alternating pulling knee into chest (loosens back and hips up great). And then a few deck squats to really loosen up.

The weights were the first thing I thought of and it really appeals to me for whatever reason. Good thoughts.


Look I don't know if this particular exercise would specifically have any carry-over, but some of the Westside/Conjugate Wisdom I appreciate, is that doing "the same but different" i.e. a movement that is closely matched to the one you're trying to conquer for a couple of weeks - can get you past that mental block...as well as hit any secret areas you might be missing.

Ease up on the testing the AMRAP for a bit as you could be getting the diminishing returns repeating what you've been doing. Find a way around it for a couple of weeks like the different progressions mentioned here, new exercises, etc. etc. then test again.

I suspect you'd notice a difference if you did something as simple as adding resistance though, and attempt PRs with that for a bit.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:36 pm

Good stuff thanks.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:02 am

I have three thoughts which are separate but I think they tie together.

1) What we call a mental block can sometimes be at least partly physical. Target panic is now believed to be neurological. So maybe the "stuck at 50" thing is your body learning that that's the stopping point. Which relates to

2) Setting an artificial ceiling. This is what I call it, I'm sure there's a name I don't know or can't think of right now. You don't want to hammer a given level and teach your body that that's the limit because it can become the limit. For that reason i think we should always avoid limit PRs, meaning a PR that is really at what seems to be your limit. So for 1RM I would say, based on getting it wrong in several activities (lifting, cycling, a few others), to not go for a real max, but rather to always leave a margin, and I now think it should be a 10+% margin. It sounds crazy to "stop short" of what you can do, but I think it will lead to a longer run of progress before getting beaten into the ground, or else learning, physically or mentally or both, that that's the real limit. So when I was pushing for a 1RM in BP, I ought to have programmed it so my PR was 255 when I was really able to hit 275 if I emptied my tank. This goes against what I long believed but I think it's too much of a hit to go all in, and also I now know the artificial ceiling phenomenon is real. I don't know the mechanism for it but I've experienced it.

3) Ricky Bruch made the recommendation (in The Soul is Stronger than The World, it's on YT if anyone hasn't seen it) that a 55M discus thrower he was coaching lower her acceptance level. Meaning she was okay with a 45M throw but felt bad doing less. He said to be okay with throwing 40 meters in training. My take on this is that for a technical event which relies on a lot of speed, the extra mental effort to reach a given level was in fact holding her back. I think it's true to a lesser extent to other things. For an endurance activity, maybe feeling like you have to reach 50 reps might signal to your body, "oh shit, here we go", and actually burn more energy.

Tying these together, my thought is to do sets of 30something, don't even set a hard number, and stop at 40 even if you feel great. You want to reward your body for delivering the goods, not treat it like a worker in the USSR who got rewarded for doing more work by then having a higher quota (the entire Soviet system makes a lot more sense if we think of it as S&M cosplay. Those Russkies play hard). You will do some longer sets, maybe once a week, but even then don't go for a max, just one that's in the books as a PR but you could always have done more (settle for 62 even if you think 70 is there).

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:50 pm

More good thoughts. Thanks.

Made me reconstruct how I got here. And the past is a foreign country etc etc etc but...

When the wuflu hit I went calisthenics and pilates for a long time. I did a circuit of pushups and abs and hindu squats and then hiked.

And I did those kinda as you suggested. I didn't count and I just tried to put "solid" or "good hard sets" together. Not to failure in other words.

I got great results. I even posted about it here.

Then the gyms opened and I shelved that for weights. And I read a Bill Start article (the nudist colony visit with his Uncle!) where flat stomachs as we age means hundreds of reps of ab work before lifting.

So, I decided to do that, and leg raises were going to be the first movement I hit 100 in. I just did the others but with less focus and not counting (still do). Mostly because they are the central move in Pilates. But I have sleepy lower abs too.

I hit 50 after slow steady progress and stalled. I'm aware I am a maniac and just figured I should work at making 50 easy by stopping there and when 50 got easy easy I would add reps.

Well, 50 never got easy. As I said I'd been unconsciously slowing down the rep speed to fail at 50. And the weights came back nice and crowded out the memory of what I was doing with the abs. So, I kinda forgot the whole history.

Long story short, you're right. And so was everyone else. I need to do things differently and not max out everytime.

Plan is one day work on form at a higher tempo with submaximal sets. Another day do weighted leg raises working to a max with those. Test maybe every few weeks.

Thanks everyone. More thoughts would be great though.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:37 pm

58 with a quick tempo.

I'm done maxing for at least a month. Had a lot of avoidance activity before I got to the gym. Rest of workout went well, so no overtraining issues.

Just me being a headcase and hammering away too long and too often.

Going to choose 3 excercises to alternate pushing for maxes before workout. Then assorted other lower ab work to maintain volume. Probably weighted leg raises and flutter kicks and straight leg sit ups pilates style.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Sangoma » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:45 am

When I was training with Rudnev he had me doing high rep bw squats. The idea behind it was that 100 squats is equivalent to 1 km run. When I started doing them I paced them. One rep, deep breath in/out, another rep etc.

Maybe you can try something similar. A rep every few seconds, and once you can get to 100 you can start working on reducing the time. Just an idea.

I have doubts about weighted raisez for the following reason. High rep is determined by slow twitch muscles, while loaded movement trains fast fibers to larger degree. From this point of view it makes more sense to do unloaded raises, gradually reducing resistance. That's why megareps work so well for endurance.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Wild Bill » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:43 am

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:45 am
When I was training with Rudnev he had me doing high rep bw squats. The idea behind it was that 100 squats is equivalent to 1 km run. When I started doing them I paced them. One rep, deep breath in/out, another rep etc.
thats really good idea.
mind already will know that body capable of 100 reps, and reducing rest time will be easier.

in theory at least :)

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:19 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:45 am
When I was training with Rudnev he had me doing high rep bw squats. The idea behind it was that 100 squats is equivalent to 1 km run. When I started doing them I paced them. One rep, deep breath in/out, another rep etc.

Maybe you can try something similar. A rep every few seconds, and once you can get to 100 you can start working on reducing the time. Just an idea.

I have doubts about weighted raisez for the following reason. High rep is determined by slow twitch muscles, while loaded movement trains fast fibers to larger degree. From this point of view it makes more sense to do unloaded raises, gradually reducing resistance. That's why megareps work so well for endurance.
The first idea sounds great. I'll give that a try. I guess you used that technique from the beginning of the set? Or did you do some in normal fashion first and then go to the resting style later in the set?

Fwiw I was thinking one pound weights not 10lb weights. So the reps would still be pretty high I think.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Sangoma » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:57 am

Couple of months ago I did several sessions of unloaded pushups. The biggest shock was how few reps I could do while seriously unloaded - about 20 - 25, which I could squeeze out is I made an effort without unloading. The reason, according to Dmitry, is that unloading takes out most of the fast fibers, and you realise that your slow twitch is almost nonexistent.

Seriously, try it.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:07 am

As an aside, do you really think that 100 squats is equivalent to 1 km jogging?
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:22 am

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:57 am
Couple of months ago I did several sessions of unloaded pushups. The biggest shock was how few reps I could do while seriously unloaded - about 20 - 25, which I could squeeze out is I made an effort without unloading. The reason, according to Dmitry, is that unloading takes out most of the fast fibers, and you realise that your slow twitch is almost nonexistent.

Seriously, try it.
Unloaded? You mean with his band setup?

You could only do as many "unloaded" as bodyweight?

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Sangoma » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:56 am

Sorry, a correction. I was doing PUSHIPS, not pullups. I could do about 15 the first time I tried it. Without unloading it was likely to be my Max with the gun to the head, so to speak. I expected to be able to crunch 30 - 40 reps, hence my surprise.

Unloaded, yes, with bands. Or you can figure out some improvised pulley - rope fixed to the feet, some weight on the other end.
Last edited by Sangoma on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Sangoma » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:02 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:07 am
As an aside, do you really think that 100 squats is equivalent to 1 km jogging?
Not really. But you get a considerable cardio effect from them, especially at the end of the session, when you are all acidotic.

Say you do a rep every 3 seconds. 100 reps - 5 minutes, close to what a 1 km run would take.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:34 pm

I see what you're saying but I just think running 1 km takes way more effort than 100 squats.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:37 pm

The breathing technique is a Girevoy Sport thing.

Rudnev is such an lightweight animal that he will lose tightness unless he breathes that way, and he found it let him get numbers with the 32 kg kbs. ergo at this point in time it's just natural for him to breath that way when he does something ultra high rep like this.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:45 pm

from the bill starr piece you are referencing.


"I demonstrated the technique for performing leg raises with a partial erection, again emphasizing the importance of bending the knees and using a good range of motion on each stroke. "

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:47 pm

Bill Starr always seemed super ghetto to me, and not in a good way.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Sangoma » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:14 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:45 pm
from the bill starr piece you are referencing.


"I demonstrated the technique for performing leg raises with a partial erection, again emphasizing the importance of bending the knees and using a good range of motion on each stroke. "
Cock Hero commentary on Pornhub.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:03 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:15 pm

PM Sangoma, he had a post on his Girevoy Sport after 50 site that detailed Rudnev's very simple and practical approach to getting to a 10:00 GS set, but that he used it to work up to other 100 rep goals. He actually posted himself working up to 100 pistols and 100 pushups like that. I'll poke around and post it if I find it tho.
Was it this?

http://girevoysportafter40.blogspot.com ... train.html

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:04 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:47 pm
Bill Starr always seemed super ghetto to me, and not in a good way.
Care to elaborate?

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:23 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:45 pm
from the bill starr piece you are referencing.


"I demonstrated the technique for performing leg raises with a partial erection, again emphasizing the importance of bending the knees and using a good range of motion on each stroke. "
Hahahha. Yeah. The setting was a nudist colony with his "uncle" and he was showing some dudes (nude dudes?) how to do various situps to flatten the abs. He was a legit 70's HUSTLER MAG swinger party white trash tier freak. Hahahhahah

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:22 pm

I was a naive waif. I keep being amazed at how many of the seminal figures in the iron game were freaks.

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:41 pm

motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:03 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:15 pm

PM Sangoma, he had a post on his Girevoy Sport after 50 site that detailed Rudnev's very simple and practical approach to getting to a 10:00 GS set, but that he used it to work up to other 100 rep goals. He actually posted himself working up to 100 pistols and 100 pushups like that. I'll poke around and post it if I find it tho.
Was it this?

http://girevoysportafter40.blogspot.com ... train.html
No, it was Rudnev's version of density training to help guys get up to a 10:00 set.
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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:35 am

I did those two exercises today and I suck at the. Sets of 20, 17, 15 for flat surface sit ups

Sets of 12, 8, 5 of the full range leg raises

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Re: Suggestions? Stuck at 50 lying leg raises for months. Want 100 (yes it's a dumb goal).

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:36 pm

I turn my feet out (cue for me is "turn out from the hips not toes") it made it harder at first but shutting off the hip flexors as much as possible seems better for endurance.

And I kept my hands resting on lower belly for a while to help me wake up those muscles.

Thinking that the feet move "out and away" in an arc helps me keep my low back flatter as well.

50 really burns. Even into the upper abs.

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