Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

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Luke
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Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Luke » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:06 pm

UPDATE

Well better years late than absolutely never...I've found some resources lately that made me recall this thread. I'm adding them @ the bottom in case they help anyone.

In my own approach to lifting and working around injuries, this event in 2015 and a precipitating injury that ruled me out of all 2016 forced me to reassess how to rehab and prehab. When this thread was started, I was very bitter Starrett's methods had caused harm, under a year later, a physio was tabling the idea of surgery as an RC tweak turned into what appeared to be a frozen shoulder. As much as it's still frustrating to have lost a whole year of lifting from my life, it was a learning experience.

In hindsight, I may've run myself aground with overzealous mobility work, poor mental models of my injury and lifestyle factors. I most certainly set all of this up with bad lifting habits.

Regardless, the MWOD juggernaut was in full swing at this time, and qualified people were starting to look for the evidence, of which there was little to none. The emergent science around pain and movement was clearly at odds with what MWOD was spruiking. Starrett was questioned on a 2016 podcast where the contemporary science was in his work, stopping short of saying he was doing a disservice not using his massive platform to demonstrate it.

Believing now there's a model to be reconciled where biopsychological factors - and their influence on pain - can coexist with manual and mechanical work (massage, soft-tissue and mobilisations) I've checked back in with present day MWOD. Sometimes there are answers to be found there that you can't easily draw from anywhere else, and sometimes those answers work.

Interestingly, in what I've seen so far, Starrett's vocabulary has changed. No longer are you inundated with descriptions of how mangled tissues are, there's talk about giving the brain stimulus to downregulate pain and desensitise affected areas or giving the brain verification it's safe to release tight parts of the body that it might be trying to protect, regardless of its tissue quality. This was stuff that I couldn't find in 2013 videos, or the book, and is much more aligned to where the evidence is at at the moment.



Resources:

This article is useful in understanding some of this:
https://startingstrength.com/article/aches-and-pains

This book is very good at explaining the latest pain science in a format anyone can understand:
Explain Pain by Lorimer Mosely and David Butler
https://www.amazon.com/Explain-David-Bu ... way&sr=8-1

Shaf asked how you'd treat nerves. The woman I got this idea from has since released a book. It's a very interesting approach, but I doubt how battle-tested in athletes it is. Clinical studies have also had to be redone.

Dermo Neuro Modulating: Manual Treatment for Peripheral Nerves and Especially Cutaneous Nerves by Diane Jacobs
https://www.amazon.com/Dermo-Neuro-Modu ... B01N0J8HVO




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Original Post

Disclaimer: This thread is for some equally clueless lifter in future times.

Voodoo bands have always worked well for me. Their true worth was momentarily stripping away pain & discomfort when something flared up. Over the few years I've tried to use them, I realised they can tell your brain to ease off fucking with you which can sometimes see you through. Actually their true worth was wrapping them around my hips to give the effect of Inzer Power Pants when I didn't want to look like a tool in a commercial gym (I still looked like a tool. But at least looked heterosexual to the layperson.)

I had been working on a Golfer's Elbow problem for around 3 weeks, with a lot of repeated stretching, "mashing" etc. I was noticing relief. The morning after a mobility session, I woke up with pain in my medial elbow like someone was soldering it. This wasn't the "tendonitis" I thought I was experiencing. I was going out the door to work and decided to wrap the joint to calm it down. This always helped, why not now? It did.

Later that day, I was talking to an intern (19, cute, asian gal) and my arm brushed up against...........my chair............and I noticed that I couldn't feel my tricep. I knew it was there. I could flex it (she was totally looking) but couldn't feel it. I had full control of my hand which was good.

This didn't relent and eventually I saw a physio. I've been getting treatment and he's been introducing me to students who are at the clinic. He's giving them my symptoms and then testing them. It's an ulnar nerve neurapraxia but not in the conventional sense - hand and fingers are completely OK. After being told, "work on your problems everyday", I went the fuck away and did that. HALF-ASSED, mind you! I prefer getting drunk and not doing anything most days. Yet I'd been going gently and completely scrambled myself.

For me, and perhaps for you, all of these shitty shoulder/arm "overuse" injuries are complete bunk. It's just been a cunty nerve the whole time and my brain has been spazzing out. I've spoken with wizened physios - including the guy who's treating me now - who believe it's all skin and nerves to be worked on.....for almost everything. Dave Tate might have a few more things to answer for but for the rest of us, I'm being told it's your brain & nervous system. No adhesions to scrape out. Not something you need to do all the time. "Gristly bits" don't equal pain. You don't need to be cracked, realigned, mashed, joint distracted, pierced or otherwise. The science is deep, complex and onerous to read...but I'm giving it a shot.

Maybe this well-meaning mobility industry is running away on false hope like the supplement one. I'm aware the body-workers may have something to say. Just pissed I've been put out by bullshit you read/hear should be done regularly...without warning shots of any type.

That's what I get for trying!
Last edited by Luke on Wed May 08, 2019 5:22 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Dunn
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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Dunn » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:28 pm

Luke wrote:Disclaimer: This thread is for some equally clueless lifter in future times.

Voodoo bands have always worked well for me. Their true worth was momentarily stripping away pain & discomfort when something flared up. Over the few years I've tried to use them, I realised they can tell your brain to ease off fucking with you which can sometimes see you through. Actually their true worth was wrapping them around my hips to give the effect of Inzer Power Pants when I didn't want to look like a tool in a commercial gym (I still looked like a tool. But at least looked heterosexual to the layperson.)

I had been working on a Golfer's Elbow problem for around 3 weeks, with a lot of repeated stretching, "mashing" etc. I was noticing relief. The morning after a mobility session, I woke up with pain in my medial elbow like someone was soldering it. This wasn't the "tendonitis" I thought I was experiencing. I was going out the door to work and decided to wrap the joint to calm it down. This always helped, why not now? It did.

Later that day, I was talking to an intern (19, cute, asian gal) and my arm brushed up against...........my chair............and I noticed that I couldn't feel my tricep. I knew it was there. I could flex it (she was totally looking) but couldn't feel it. I had full control of my hand which was good.

This didn't relent and eventually I saw a physio. I've been getting treatment and he's been introducing me to students who are at the clinic. He's giving them my symptoms and then testing them. It's an ulnar nerve neurapraxia but not in the conventional sense - hand and fingers are completely OK. After being told, "work on your problems everyday", I went the fuck away and did that. HALF-ASSED, mind you! I prefer getting drunk and not doing anything most days. Yet I'd been going gently and completely scrambled myself.

For me, and perhaps for you, all of these shitty shoulder/arm "overuse" injuries are complete bunk. It's just been a cunty nerve the whole time and my brain has been spazzing out. I've spoken with wizened physios - including the guy who's treating me now - who believe it's all skin and nerves to be worked on.....for almost everything. Dave Tate might have a few more things to answer for but for the rest of us, I'm being told it's your brain & nervous system. No adhesions to scrape out. Not something you need to do all the time. "Gristly bits" don't equal pain. You don't need to be cracked, realigned, mashed, joint distracted, pierced or otherwise. The science is deep, complex and onerous to read...but I'm giving it a shot.

Maybe this well-meaning mobility industry is running away on false hope like the supplement one. I'm aware the body-workers may have something to say. Just pissed I've been put out by bullshit you read/hear should be done regularly...without warning shots of any type.

That's what I get for trying!
Interesting and something that I partially agree with. I know a ton of folks that are constantly rolling and mashing themselves as a standard. I find that it's useful for addressing basic tightness and getting some good hard massaging when you can't get to a good masseuse, but even then I'm using it lightly and not killing myself with it.

What did the physio recommend for this?

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Boris » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:25 pm

Pain is a complicated beyotch, no doubt.

I had a lower back issue a while back that I just could not get a handle on. For over a year it totally ruined my ability to squat w. anything much beyond the bar and I was terrified it would become a lifelong thing.

The usual things (like rest, ice/heat, compression, electro-stim, etc) weren't working and nothing gave much in the way of relief.

Loooooong story short, it was about re-educating myself to squat pain-free and most of my path to recovery was finding hinge and squat variants that I could do pain-free until the association had dissipated enough that I could rebuild my regular barbell back squat to something less pathetic. Wearing a belt helped w. the re-education process too actually.

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:34 pm

Boris wrote:Pain is a complicated beyotch, no doubt.

I had a lower back issue a while back that I just could not get a handle on. For over a year it totally ruined my ability to squat w. anything much beyond the bar and I was terrified it would become a lifelong thing.

The usual things (like rest, ice/heat, compression, electro-stim, etc) weren't working and nothing gave much in the way of relief.

Loooooong story short, it was about re-educating myself to squat pain-free and most of my path to recovery was finding hinge and squat variants that I could do pain-free until the association had dissipated enough that I could rebuild my regular barbell back squat to something less pathetic. Wearing a belt helped w. the re-education process too actually.

I recently had a psoas/QL thing like that, was killing me. The only thing that worked was to keep squatting, at least E3D sometimes EOD or ED....even then, squatting sucked until about 450-500, then the thoracic pressure would be high enough to kinda blank it out. There's much much truth in what you're saying about finding a thing that works and working it, relearning problem movements.... while waiting out the issues....actively/passively and otherwise. For me Graston and ART fixed the issue...and both involve a lot of mashing and scraping.
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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Dunn » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:42 pm

For me Graston and ART fixed the issue...and both involve a lot of mashing and scraping.
I definitely think it CAN work for various issues. I just don't necessarily think the average lifter/athlete needs to go run and jump on the rumble roller after every hard session, which there seem to be a number of folks doing. I know some that they do it before and after their workout, every time like clockwork. That's where I think folks can start causing more inflammation as opposed to freeing up and muscular-tendon hinkiness.

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:48 pm

I think there's appropriate and inappropriate methods of treatment for a given injury. Australia is pretty cutting edge with regards to physio treatment and with actual intelligent training practices for athletes with the AIS...there's nothing similar to that in the United States.

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:49 pm

So, how the fuck do you treat issues arriving from nerve tissue or skin?

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:35 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:So, how the fuck do you treat issues arriving from nerve tissue or skin?

Movement and physical manipulation seem to work consistently well....If I were guess at a near universal prescription it would be light tumbling, focused PT and massage.

where the rumble roller/voodo floss belong in this continuum I have few ideas. I have only found really limited utility.
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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Boris » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:11 pm

Competent massage is the sh*t. Seriously.

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by syaigh » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:36 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:So, how the fuck do you treat issues arriving from nerve tissue or skin?

Movement and physical manipulation seem to work consistently well....If I were guess at a near universal prescription it would be light tumbling, focused PT and massage.

where the rumble roller/voodo floss belong in this continuum I have few ideas. I have only found really limited utility.

I agree with this, and I'll add another: muscle relaxers. They work when sometimes nothing else does.

I agree that foam rolling, etc., can only do so much. It doesn't help my chronic or acute issues. Granted, I'm in my forties, but that's my experience.

For me, the triad of awesome is my chiropractor, massage therapist, and skelaxin.
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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by TomFurman » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:38 am

Ignoring Dr Stu McGill's Big 3 and instead adopting Machine Flexion/Extension and Rotation of the lumbar in a very slow 5 sec / 5 sec fashion brought up the strength, found some weak points in my back.
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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by aussie luke » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:00 am

I bought my Body Back Buddy massage stick from a myofascial release clinic here in Australia. The guy asked me what I wanted it for and how I was planning to use it. Said I'd been using tennis balls and hard cricket balls and really trying to get into my back and shoulder muscles to try and fix some thoracic outlet syndrome problems I was having.

He said that's great go ahead. But also said try finding a trigger point with a bit of pressure, then back right off and just hold it there for like five minutes, instead of smashing the shit out of it, to get it to release properly and not just temporarily.

I've personally found both ways pretty effective.

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Luke » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:12 pm

I wrote the OP late and smashed the other night, so was dreading coming back here as I sounded really whiney and arbitrary with what I was saying. Glad to see the discussion has gone on! I'm actually crafting and trying to research responses to the questions because I think they're important enough. Will post ASAP.

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:52 pm

TomFurman wrote:Ignoring Dr Stu McGill's Big 3 and instead adopting Machine Flexion/Extension and Rotation of the lumbar in a very slow 5 sec / 5 sec fashion brought up the strength, found some weak points in my back.

you told me what this machine is called on another thread...lost it. IIRC recall it was for a QL issue I was having....did you post a pic of the thing?
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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by TomFurman » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:01 am

"There is only one God, and he doesn't dress like that". - - Captain America

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Re: Not so sure about the mashin' and the flossin'

Post by Luke » Wed May 08, 2019 5:13 am

^ Update in original post

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