Willpower depletion debunked

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Blaidd Drwg
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:58 am

tell you what, you post a training log and contribute one meaningful thing to any thread on this forum and I'll contribute a hundred bucks to any Papist charity you choose. Until you can manage something useful, just try not shitlording above your pay grade.
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Turdacious » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:06 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:tell you what, you post a training log and contribute one meaningful thing to any thread on this forum and I'll contribute a hundred bucks to any Papist charity you choose. Until you can manage something useful, just try not shitlording above your pay grade.
And you'll do that of your own free will?
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Sangoma » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:21 am

Turdacious wrote:
Sangoma wrote:The Lucretian swerve: The biological basis of human behavior and the criminal justice system
Many believe that the consequences of a society lacking free will would be disastrous. In contrast, I argue that we do not necessarily need to be pessimistic about confronting a world lacking free will. Indeed, it is quite possible that progress in some of the more vexing sociological problems may be better achieved once we clarify our thinking concerning the concepts of free will and fault. Certainly, crime is a problem that society has much difficulty dealing with, and in the United States we have the highest rate of incarceration in the world (40). For these and other reasons, surely it is inexcusable that in addressing these problems we continue to entertain this fallacious assumption concerning the most basic feature of human behavior.
Pro tip-- when the only medieval philosopher you discuss is Occam, the paper is generally shit.
Come again?
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Turdacious » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:25 am

Sangoma wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Sangoma wrote:The Lucretian swerve: The biological basis of human behavior and the criminal justice system
Many believe that the consequences of a society lacking free will would be disastrous. In contrast, I argue that we do not necessarily need to be pessimistic about confronting a world lacking free will. Indeed, it is quite possible that progress in some of the more vexing sociological problems may be better achieved once we clarify our thinking concerning the concepts of free will and fault. Certainly, crime is a problem that society has much difficulty dealing with, and in the United States we have the highest rate of incarceration in the world (40). For these and other reasons, surely it is inexcusable that in addressing these problems we continue to entertain this fallacious assumption concerning the most basic feature of human behavior.
Pro tip-- when the only medieval philosopher you discuss is Occam, the paper is generally shit.
Come again?
So you didn't read it?
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Sangoma » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:12 am

Turdacious wrote:
Sangoma wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Sangoma wrote:The Lucretian swerve: The biological basis of human behavior and the criminal justice system
Many believe that the consequences of a society lacking free will would be disastrous. In contrast, I argue that we do not necessarily need to be pessimistic about confronting a world lacking free will. Indeed, it is quite possible that progress in some of the more vexing sociological problems may be better achieved once we clarify our thinking concerning the concepts of free will and fault. Certainly, crime is a problem that society has much difficulty dealing with, and in the United States we have the highest rate of incarceration in the world (40). For these and other reasons, surely it is inexcusable that in addressing these problems we continue to entertain this fallacious assumption concerning the most basic feature of human behavior.
Pro tip-- when the only medieval philosopher you discuss is Occam, the paper is generally shit.
Come again?
So you didn't read it?
I did. It would be more useful if you commented on the actual content rather than the arbitrary corollary as the value of the text.
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:15 pm

buckethead wrote:
Yes, I'm drunk wrote:
buckethead wrote:If you don't think a squirrel has free will then stop with your "common sense" arguments and toss in some science. That is the worst null hypothesis I've seen. A Commodore 64 would pass that test if I put a chron job in
Not really. The computer is simply a conduit for something you've set in motion of your own free-will.

But I think the point I make about entropy is important, and relates to Libet's own criticism of his experiment: that being that his conclusions were only relevant to rapid, spontaneous movements, not decisions predicted to be performed days, weeks or months later.

Any argument as to free-will based on how the brain works is moot at the moment given our present inadequate understanding of the brain. If it's not a black box, then it's a very, very dark shade of grey.....
Your first point is again recursive and as for the lady point, you don't need any neuroscience for determinist arguments. Only cause and effect
Yet you are not able to point to a cause. And if your argument is based on cause and effect, the lack of a cause is a pretty big hole in that argument.

But even then, your point about "you don't need any neuroscience" is disingenuous. Which is just another reason why I am very skeptical about the state of the debate on this topic.....

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Turdacious » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:22 pm

The author's argument is that the idea of free will is based on the largely discredited concept of vitalism-- in the broad western tradition it isn't.
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by buckethead » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:59 pm

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:
buckethead wrote:
Yes, I'm drunk wrote:
buckethead wrote:If you don't think a squirrel has free will then stop with your "common sense" arguments and toss in some science. That is the worst null hypothesis I've seen. A Commodore 64 would pass that test if I put a chron job in
Not really. The computer is simply a conduit for something you've set in motion of your own free-will.

But I think the point I make about entropy is important, and relates to Libet's own criticism of his experiment: that being that his conclusions were only relevant to rapid, spontaneous movements, not decisions predicted to be performed days, weeks or months later.

Any argument as to free-will based on how the brain works is moot at the moment given our present inadequate understanding of the brain. If it's not a black box, then it's a very, very dark shade of grey.....
Your first point is again recursive and as for the lady point, you don't need any neuroscience for determinist arguments. Only cause and effect
Yet you are not able to point to a cause. And if your argument is based on cause and effect, the lack of a cause is a pretty big hole in that argument.

But even then, your point about "you don't need any neuroscience" is disingenuous. Which is just another reason why I am very skeptical about the state of the debate on this topic.....
Ok, you're trolling. I see

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Sua Sponte » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:51 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Because YID is a bitch who can't answer a direct question, lemme help him out.....Here's my favorite (yes favorite...I'm not clever enough out-think this argument by any stretch it just feels like he might be going somewhere new) argument in favor of a mechanism for free will that avoid the causality problems.
"How can something cause its own physical basis? It is this 'you can't pick yourself up by your own bootstraps' idea that has been the main argument against the possibility of free will," Tse says.

The way around this problem, Tse says in his new book, The Neural Basis of Free Will: Criterial Causation, is to understand that information is realized not only in neural firings in the present. Information is also realized in the strengths or weights of connections between neurons, called “synapses.” Neurons can change the weights of other neurons’ synapses very quickly. These “rewired” neurons will now fire differently upon future inputs than they otherwise would have.
"The solution is that the brain can set criteria for future mental activity that will be met by future inputs." This can follow a long period of consideration, or playing things out virtually in one’s mind, before an optimal set of criteria gets wired into synaptic weights so that the system is ready, should the right car comes along."
https://news.dartmouth.edu/news/2013/03 ... -free-will


I encourage anyone interested to comb through the reams of absolute bullshit arguments in favor of free will...you'll not find much solace there..this is a good one.
Just read this in its entirety. There must be more to the story than what's in this short summary. The result of weighted pathways still is beyond the volitional control of the person and he is still unaware of them. Weighted and conditional decisions are easily implemented in computer code. The only difference is here it's the physical mechanism being altered. While that makes it well worthy of much further investigation it of itself implies nothing fundamentally new. Still, the possibility is there.

What this thread is turning into is why only physically and mathematically based science will yield a result, if the problem is indeed soluble. Philosophy unconstrained by these laws rapidly turns into religion and tribalism.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:03 pm

Sua Sponte wrote:
Just read this in its entirety. There must be more to the story than what's in this short summary. The result of weighted pathways still is beyond the volitional control of the person and he is still unaware of them. Weighted and conditional decisions are easily implemented in computer code. The only difference is here it's the physical mechanism being altered. While that makes it well worthy of much further investigation it of itself implies nothing fundamentally new. Still, the possibility is there.
.

I think there's quite a bit more, I just haven't found it yet. I think the quantum microtubules has the same problem though...how and where does volitional control occur, but still and fascinating area to look for a mechanism.

Don't be too disheartened, YID and Turd's regressive tendencies do that to every thread. They could derail a discussion of pushups.
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:12 pm

This thread is unreadable, and the parts that are readable are painful to read.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:21 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:This thread is unreadable, and the parts that are readable are painful to read.
Hey...if we could ban YID, we would have already.
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by buckethead » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:24 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:This thread is unreadable, and the parts that are readable are painful to read.
Sorry. Bench press. Squat. Fat.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:35 am

It's been squid ink, mostly.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by buckethead » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:36 am

Only Jack R is a squid AFAIK

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by powerlifter54 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:39 pm

buckethead wrote:Only Jack R is a squid AFAIK
buckethead wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:This thread is unreadable, and the parts that are readable are painful to read.
Sorry. Bench press. Squat. Fat.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Sua Sponte » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:37 pm

nafod wrote:
Saw another big brain talk about nonlinear and chaotic systems, and one snippet of his talk stuck with me. He gave an example of a simple function that did "significant digit mining", so for example if X is the input, the output is 1000*X with the digits to the left of the decimal point removed, so X is always between 0 and 1. Now if the initial value X is an observation, it means you only observe it to a limited precision, let's say a 1000 decimal points. We want to use our observation and our knowledge of the function to predict the future.

But X is a real number, so it has an infinite number of digits to the right of the decimal point. At each iteration, we essentially just shift the number to the left and toss the digits to the left of the decimal point. So in this case, after just 10 iterations of the function, we have chewed up and spit out all 1000 digits of precision and the last output is completely unknown us. We have zero predictive power 10 iterations into the future. Chaotic systems tend to behave this way, mining significant digits.

This seems like something important. Deterministic yet unknowable in a world with finite measurements.
This didn't sink in deep enough the first time I read it. Clever. Some quantification issues in getting the data into a digital computer, sort of the same reason that random number sequences from computers are termed pseudo-random, but an interesting path to explore.

I read an article, can't find it now, where the author asserted that since the brain is analog and the typical computer digital that the larger infinity of the real numbers vs. is the smaller infinity of the smaller (countable) integer numbers, the brain should be able to do things that a computer cannot. Issue is that nothing is truly analog, just the quantization normally appears at a lower level than is observable.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:13 pm

As the Turing model continues to ring flat for me, I've gotten deeply lost in the intertoobz trying to find any research on consciousness/free will and the "Second Brian"

Short Answer, found nothing really good yet but holy crap it's an interesting area of brain/behavior research.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ond-brain/
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by stanley_white » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:22 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:As the Turing model continues to ring flat for me, I've gotten deeply lost in the intertoobz trying to find any research on consciousness/free will and the "Second Brian"

Short Answer, found nothing really good yet but holy crap it's an interesting area of brain/behavior research.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ond-brain/
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx
I prefer the First Brian myself.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:02 pm

Damn.


That's good
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Sangoma » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:06 am

The Life of Brian:

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Sangoma » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:07 am

Back to the boring topic:

Is Consciousness Just An Illusion?
Explaining this phenomenon, he and his colleagues posit that our thoughts are largely involuntary, occurring as a kind of reflex reaction to external stimuli, over which we have no “conscious” control. In other words, it is within the domain of the subconscious that our real thoughts occur, and the conscious mind is then capable only of viewing the “outputs” of this process.
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:12 am

Sangoma wrote:Back to the boring topic:

Is Consciousness Just An Illusion?
Explaining this phenomenon, he and his colleagues posit that our thoughts are largely involuntary, occurring as a kind of reflex reaction to external stimuli, over which we have no “conscious” control. In other words, it is within the domain of the subconscious that our real thoughts occur, and the conscious mind is then capable only of viewing the “outputs” of this process.
Non. Non. Non.

The sub-conscious is the sub-conscious. Once a self-recognition of the "conscious" occurs, that paradigm breaks down.

Even Libet concedes this point.

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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:26 pm

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:The sub-conscious is the sub-conscious. Once a self-recognition of the "conscious" occurs, that paradigm breaks down..
On what do you base this?
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Re: Willpower depletion debunked

Post by nafod » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:12 pm

Sangoma wrote:Back to the boring topic:

Is Consciousness Just An Illusion?
Explaining this phenomenon, he and his colleagues posit that our thoughts are largely involuntary, occurring as a kind of reflex reaction to external stimuli, over which we have no “conscious” control. In other words, it is within the domain of the subconscious that our real thoughts occur, and the conscious mind is then capable only of viewing the “outputs” of this process.
So a comment on this...my thinking, based on stuff I've read and internal pondering

The brain creates an internal model of the universe, and it is this model, which is based on an amazingly sparse direct sensory feed along with cultural input etc., is what the brain acts on. A hell of a lot of what we "know" is just internally generated belief. There's a constant alignment process to what we sense, kind of like using known position fixes to update navigation, but the internal does not wait for external stimulus to keep evolving. It has a life of its own.

So the response strictly to external stimuli is at best a few steps removed from direct. We can respond to the operations of that ever changing model of the universe in our head that is evolving on its own.

As for the separation between decision commit and conscious awareness of it, anyone who has been in the zone athletically has felt this. You just sit back and watch yourself perform.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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