Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

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JohnDoe
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Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by JohnDoe » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:03 pm

Everyone's probably seen this by now, but it's still good. I dig that those little Aussies still try and tackle him.


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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:11 pm

The kid is 1 foot taller and 50# heavier than the others...OF COURSE IT'S GONNA HAPPEN LIKE THAT

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by JohnDoe » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:38 pm

Well...yeah. Made me think of Jonah Lomu and all the things you can't teach is all. My apologies for interrupting the vigorous debate and activity of 2016 Irongarm.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:35 pm

Prop material once the other kids harden up in a few years

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by syaigh » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:14 pm

From what I understand, physical prodigies are very much like intellectual prodigies, they just peaked young.

For example, most intellectual prodigies don't turn into super geniuses, and its a source of great frustration.

Some kids are really coordinated at a young age, a lot of other kids need to wait until puberty when their nervous system completes myelination. And then there's the size thing. So, yeah, middle school in particular, you'll find some kids who are absolute monsters and others who are wee mice.

But, look at the Olympics. How many of those athletes who are in their 30's and 40's were awesome as kids? The guy who won the first marathon at the Olympics was a mediocre cross country runner in high school (Frank Shorter) and never ran that distance until after college.

Yeah, there are genetic freaks. But there are a lot more kids who are spared the rigors (and injury) of early specialization, get the right training at the right time, and are able to have a long sports career during which they are able to develop much better skills, strength, power, speed, etc.

If parents can resist the urge to celebrate the glory of the current moment, they have the opportunity to allow their kids to develop an awesome athletic/fitness life/career. But, no, concussions and ruined joints be damned, I need my kid to be the best, right now.
Last edited by syaigh on Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by JohnDoe » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:39 pm

Now that's cool. Any sourcing you can share off the top of your head? I caught you dropping the myelination, but I've already read Talent Code.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Mickey O'neil » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:54 pm

This.
syaigh wrote:From what I understand, physical prodigies are very much like intellectual prodigies, they just peaked young.

For example, most intellectual prodigies don't turn into super geniuses, and its a source of great frustration.

Some kids are really coordinated at a young age, a lot of other kids need to wait until puberty when their nervous system completes myelination. And then there's the size thing. So, yeah, middle school in particular, you'll find some kids who are absolute monsters and others who are wee mice.

But, look at the Olympics. How many of those athletes who are in their 30's and 40's were awesome as kids? The guy who won the first marathon at the Olympics was a mediocre cross country runner in high school (Martin Shorter) and never ran that distance until after college.

Yeah, there are genetic freaks. But there are a lot more kids who are spared the rigors (and injury) of early specialization, get the right training at the right time, and are able to have a long sports career during which they are able to develop much better skills, strength, power, speed, etc.

If parents can resist the urge to celebrate the glory of the current moment, they have the opportunity to allow their kids to develop an awesome athletic/fitness life/career. But, no, concussions and ruined joints be damned, I need my kid to be the best, right now.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by syaigh » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:42 pm

JohnDoe wrote:Now that's cool. Any sourcing you can share off the top of your head? I caught you dropping the myelination, but I've already read Talent Code.
Sorry, total nerdfest, one of many: Structural Maturation of Neural Pathways in Children and Adolescents: In Vivo Study
Tomáš Paus*,1, Alex Zijdenbos1, Keith Worsley1, D. Louis Collins1, Jonathan Blumenthal2, Jay N. Giedd2, Judith L. Rapoport2, Alan C. Evans1
The observed changes in white matter density in the internal capsule and the left arcuate fasciculus may reflect age-related increases in the diameter or myelination of the axons forming these fiber tracts. It has been suggested that the diameter of the thickest fibers in the corticospinal tract increases linearly as a function of body height (12). Significant shortening of the central conduction time during childhood and adolescence has been observed in the motor pathway of both human and nonhuman primates (13). These observations, as well as our findings, are thus consistent with the relatively protracted development of motor skills believed to be dependent on the corticospinal system, namely those requiring fine finger movements (14). Faster conduction velocity can facilitate information flow not only by speeding it up but also by allowing for precise temporal coding of high-frequency bursts of neuronal activity (15). It has been proposed that processing of speech sounds requires a neural system capable of tracking rapid changes in acoustic input (16). Rapid transfer of information to the auditory cortex and beyond would require fast-conducting fiber systems. A recent observation by Penhune et al. (17) of larger left than right white matter volume in Heschl's gyrus in the adult human brain is consistent with this notion. Moore et al. (18) examined brain specimens of children aged 5 to 11 years and observed gradual maturation of axons originating in the superficial layers of the auditory cortex; these axons may contribute to corticocortical connections contained in the arcuate fasciculus.

Thus, the age-related increases in white matter density along the arcuate fasciculus observed here may represent a structural correlate of another component of the audiovocal system, namely the corticocortical pathway mediating sensory-motor interactions between the anterior and posterior speech regions. The interruption of the arcuate fasciculus in adulthood causes conduction aphasia, perhaps as a result of the disruption of both feedforward and feedback mechanisms (19). The importance of the feedback mechanism is also shown by the presence of significant modulation of neuronal activity in the human and monkey auditory cortex during speech and vocalization, respectively (20). The engagement of such feedback mechanisms may facilitate late stages of speech development, requiring a fast bidirectional transfer of information between the auditory and motor cortical regions. It is also possible that the age-related increases in white matter density, both along the arcuate fasciculus and the putative corticospinal tract, reflect the effect of extensive use of these systems during the individual's life.

Our findings provide evidence for the protracted structural maturation of fiber pathways, which support motor and speech functions, during childhood and adolescence. Age-related changes in white matter density observed along these pathways may reflect increases in axon diameter, myelination, or concentration of iron, separately or in combination (21). Further studies are required to provide a link between the observed MRI-derived structural changes and the speed of neural transmission. This could be achieved, for example, by combining transcranial magnetic stimulation and multichannel electroencephalography (22). Our findings may also provide guidance for future investigations of neurodevelopmental disorders such as schizophrenia; the abnormal rate of myelination during childhood or adolescence may very well underlie the emergence of psychotic symptomatology (23). Overall, the demonstrated possibility of detecting subtle structural variations in white matter in the living human brain opens up new avenues of research on normal and abnormal cognitive development and the evaluation of long-term effects of various treatment strategies.
On intellectual prodigies: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... ult-genius

Some common sense: http://www.momsteam.com/successful-pare ... advantages
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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Onan The Barbarian » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:47 am

The kid seems fast for a big boy, but unless he grows up to be 8 feet tall and 400lbs it's hard to see how he's going to replicate these feats once everyone grows up too. Just in case, possibly he should learn to sidestep and pass. Instead he seems to be just stiff-arming kids half his size, while the people near the camera stroke each other to orgasm in their excitement that such an amazing feat of sport is achievable.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Protobuilder » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:23 pm

I think that everybody has grown up with kids like this. When their peers catch up with them they generally don't fare as well.

That said, the friends that I had who ended up in a professional league (NFL or NBA) were obviously talented from the moment they tied their shoes. Of course, now none are notably active or fit or competitive in any level.
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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by johno » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:59 am

syaigh wrote: Structural Maturation of Neural Pathways in Children and Adolescents: In Vivo Study
Tomáš Paus*,1, Alex Zijdenbos1, Keith Worsley1, D. Louis Collins1, Jonathan Blumenthal2, Jay N. Giedd2, Judith L. Rapoport2, Alan C. Evans1
The observed changes in white matter density in the internal capsule and the left arcuate fasciculus may reflect age-related increases in the diameter or myelination of the axons forming these fiber tracts. It has been suggested that the diameter of the thickest fibers in the corticospinal tract increases linearly as a function of body height (12). Significant shortening of the central conduction time during childhood and adolescence has been observed in the motor pathway of both human and nonhuman primates (13). These observations, as well as our findings, are thus consistent with the relatively protracted development of motor skills believed to be dependent on the corticospinal system, namely those requiring fine finger movements (14). Faster conduction velocity can facilitate information flow not only by speeding it up but also by allowing for precise temporal coding of high-frequency bursts of neuronal activity (15). It has been proposed that processing of speech sounds requires a neural system capable of tracking rapid changes in acoustic input (16). Rapid transfer of information to the auditory cortex and beyond would require fast-conducting fiber systems. A recent observation by Penhune et al. (17) of larger left than right white matter volume in Heschl's gyrus in the adult human brain is consistent with this notion. Moore et al. (18) examined brain specimens of children aged 5 to 11 years and observed gradual maturation of axons originating in the superficial layers of the auditory cortex; these axons may contribute to corticocortical connections contained in the arcuate fasciculus.

Thus, the age-related increases in white matter density along the arcuate fasciculus observed here may represent a structural correlate of another component of the audiovocal system, namely the corticocortical pathway mediating sensory-motor interactions between the anterior and posterior speech regions. The interruption of the arcuate fasciculus in adulthood causes conduction aphasia, perhaps as a result of the disruption of both feedforward and feedback mechanisms (19). The importance of the feedback mechanism is also shown by the presence of significant modulation of neuronal activity in the human and monkey auditory cortex during speech and vocalization, respectively (20). The engagement of such feedback mechanisms may facilitate late stages of speech development, requiring a fast bidirectional transfer of information between the auditory and motor cortical regions. It is also possible that the age-related increases in white matter density, both along the arcuate fasciculus and the putative corticospinal tract, reflect the effect of extensive use of these systems during the individual's life.

Our findings provide evidence for the protracted structural maturation of fiber pathways, which support motor and speech functions, during childhood and adolescence. Age-related changes in white matter density observed along these pathways may reflect increases in axon diameter, myelination, or concentration of iron, separately or in combination (21). Further studies are required to provide a link between the observed MRI-derived structural changes and the speed of neural transmission. This could be achieved, for example, by combining transcranial magnetic stimulation and multichannel electroencephalography (22). Our findings may also provide guidance for future investigations of neurodevelopmental disorders such as schizophrenia; the abnormal rate of myelination during childhood or adolescence may very well underlie the emergence of psychotic symptomatology (23). Overall, the demonstrated possibility of detecting subtle structural variations in white matter in the living human brain opens up new avenues of research on normal and abnormal cognitive development and the evaluation of long-term effects of various treatment strategies.
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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Sangoma » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:56 am

syaigh wrote:From what I understand, physical prodigies are very much like intellectual prodigies, they just peaked young.

For example, most intellectual prodigies don't turn into super geniuses, and its a source of great frustration.

Some kids are really coordinated at a young age, a lot of other kids need to wait until puberty when their nervous system completes myelination. And then there's the size thing. So, yeah, middle school in particular, you'll find some kids who are absolute monsters and others who are wee mice.

But, look at the Olympics. How many of those athletes who are in their 30's and 40's were awesome as kids? The guy who won the first marathon at the Olympics was a mediocre cross country runner in high school (Frank Shorter) and never ran that distance until after college.

Yeah, there are genetic freaks. But there are a lot more kids who are spared the rigors (and injury) of early specialization, get the right training at the right time, and are able to have a long sports career during which they are able to develop much better skills, strength, power, speed, etc.

If parents can resist the urge to celebrate the glory of the current moment, they have the opportunity to allow their kids to develop an awesome athletic/fitness life/career. But, no, concussions and ruined joints be damned, I need my kid to be the best, right now.
Tim Noakes wrote in his Lore of Running that it is almost never the case that distance events are won by the same person in their teens, 20-s, 30-s etc. It seems the amount of "competitive juice" is limited. So marathon in 40 year old groups will be won by someone who was mediocre in his teens, and vice versa, those who shone in their 20-s will most likely suck in ten years time.

The idea of delaying specialization is fairly strong in Russian coaching textbooks.
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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:13 am

There was a kid in my year who was by far the best footballer I've ever seen; simply light-years ahead of anyone else. Really, really good.

He got scouted for a professional club at 15/16, signed terms etc. Ended up being cut loose two years later with no other teams interested.

If this lad couldn't make it, then what it must take to actually succeed as a soccer-pro boggles my mind.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by JasonC » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:47 pm

Onan The Barbarian wrote:...Instead he seems to be just stiff-arming kids half his size, while the people near the camera stroke each other to orgasm in their excitement that such an amazing feat of sport is achievable.
=D>

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:54 pm

Sangoma wrote:
syaigh wrote:From what I understand, physical prodigies are very much like intellectual prodigies, they just peaked young.

For example, most intellectual prodigies don't turn into super geniuses, and its a source of great frustration.

Some kids are really coordinated at a young age, a lot of other kids need to wait until puberty when their nervous system completes myelination. And then there's the size thing. So, yeah, middle school in particular, you'll find some kids who are absolute monsters and others who are wee mice.

But, look at the Olympics. How many of those athletes who are in their 30's and 40's were awesome as kids? The guy who won the first marathon at the Olympics was a mediocre cross country runner in high school (Frank Shorter) and never ran that distance until after college.

Yeah, there are genetic freaks. But there are a lot more kids who are spared the rigors (and injury) of early specialization, get the right training at the right time, and are able to have a long sports career during which they are able to develop much better skills, strength, power, speed, etc.

If parents can resist the urge to celebrate the glory of the current moment, they have the opportunity to allow their kids to develop an awesome athletic/fitness life/career. But, no, concussions and ruined joints be damned, I need my kid to be the best, right now.
Tim Noakes wrote in his Lore of Running that it is almost never the case that distance events are won by the same person in their teens, 20-s, 30-s etc. It seems the amount of "competitive juice" is limited. So marathon in 40 year old groups will be won by someone who was mediocre in his teens, and vice versa, those who shone in their 20-s will most likely suck in ten years time.

The idea of delaying specialization is fairly strong in Russian coaching textbooks.
I find Gladwellian half assery on this subject putrid (10,000 hours)...but there's a distinct pattern of it taking close to a decade to develop the cpapcity of being a contender and then you have 5, maybe 10 years to express that talent.

What's doubly amusing is the American Fellating of all things genetic/prodigy when it comes to sport. The reality is far far more complex and truly the most genetically gifted "natural" athletes rarely do as well as those that are "pretty gifted" but mostly physically and mentally durable over a long period of time and above all, mentality suited to the sport...for some on the purely physcla end of the spectrum (pure strength/pure endurance) that means being a little bit crazy.

Want to know why AA DI football linemen don't dominate the field sports? Cause it's fucking boring. They'd rather play football...culturally there is far less reward for watching a steel ball go .2 meters further than the fat guy who threw it right before you. Trainabilty and an internal locus of motivation is a greater contributor to success than just raw talent. Most raw talents remain uncooked and useless.
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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Spiller » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:16 am

The IAAF (International Track and Field Association) just voted to eliminate their under 18 world champs. They were meant to be a conduit to greater professional athletes, but most of the winners never went on to do anything else of value (including anything at the under 20 champs).

There were, of course, a few exceptions, like Usain Bolt.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Spiller » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:17 am

oh, and screw that fat kid. Bully in the making.

I'd tell my kid to sweep the leg.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:25 pm

I've heard more than a few stories of kids not playing any football until high school, but they ran track, boxed, maybe wrestled or did judo, their physical training was managed and it was a smooth ride to the pros.

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Re: Nature v Nurture in Youth Rugby

Post by Boris » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:49 pm

If I wanted to develop my own kid into a football player of any kind, he wouldn't play football beyond touch football until he was in high school. I guess if you love the game I can understand, but I think those pop warner leagues are bullshit. I would never let my kid be tackling or be tackled on a regular basis at a younger than necessary age.

That said, there are physical skills that need to be developed and waiting isn't always a good thing. Overspecialization too early of course is bad, but it's a rare bird that starts competitive swimming from zero as a teen and becomes a champion - I'm not saying it's not doable because I've seen it happen, but it is rare.

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