Old Man Training

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tough old man
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Old Man Training

Post by tough old man » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:40 pm

I've recently decided to start DeFrancos Washed Up Meathead Program.
5/3/1 hasnt been fun for a while and I feel I need more of a bodybuilder routine with some weight to it to look and feel better.

Longevity wise any thoughts on getting older and training? We've covered a bunch in the past but I know attitudes change and most of us aren't Louie Simmons.

Mobility/flexibility is becoming a huge thing as is cardio.

Right now except for a sore shoulder I am pain free and about 15 pounds too heavy.

Maybe I just have to go spend a month with Furman.
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Bobby
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Bobby » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:48 pm

What is your definition of old? I`ll be 47 in a month and I have started doing more quick circuits and some running.Never seem to remember the mobility/flexibility....maybe I should start doing it at work.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:05 pm

Lots of thoughts on this. Obviously mobility is more important, but holding muscle is too. i believe very strongly in being very risk averse injury wise as things take forever to heal, where when i was younger in two weeks i could recover from anything. i think "core strength" is grossly overdone, but core mobility is way more important, specifically hips and low back.

Not enough time to type it all out but i think volume done 1-2 reps from failure for multiple sets, and very little use of anything above 5 reps for heavier compound movements is a good base. Assistance and isolation movements you can push reps up to 8-25. You can pick whether you want to spread volume over 2-5 days.

i find training alone keeps me in my safe zone. The last thing you need in your 50s is somebody pushing you to do one more and blowing out a bodypart. If you don't know at this point whether you do or don't have one left, some boards short wearing db with a do rag and full sleeve isn't going to help you get anything more than a contribution to your yearly deductable.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:16 pm

Mobility and cardio.

I like the concept Wendler has of 2x2x2...2 weight sessions, 2 dedicated mobility sessions, 2 hard conditioning sessions a week, over top of 2-4 days of just steady state stuff.

Not a big fan of the 531 %s though, but a fan of the submaximal training.

This is how I'm running it (for the record, I have only gone through the 2 week cycle for weights ONE time)

Weights
Session 1:
SSB squats - I use a version of PL54's fun with quarters here while I'm breaking in. I cycle this up, including warm ups.
Cycle 1: 115x5, 155x5, 205x5 (SSB weighs 65#)
Cycle 2: 115x5, 205x5, 255x5
Cycle 3: 205x5, 255x5, 295x5
Cycle 4: 255x5, 295x5, 335x5
-each cycle is done with as much rest as I need. Eventually this will move into something more traditional. I need lots of sets to warm up.
Split Squat sets
Bodyweight doing 10/10, 10/10, 10/10 - will add weight and sets when ready.
RDL
135x10, 10, 10 - once again, work capacity is low as fuck, so I will add sets and weight when ready.

Session 2:
Bench press - bench is a hot mess for me right now, I'm just doing ascending ladders
OHP - using the parallel grip bar, I'm banging out light sets of 10, will probably move to a lateral raise/ohp superset, because the shoulders don't like the pressing that much.
Bent Rows - using the parallel grip bar - I'm pushing this hard, 10, 8, 5, 5, 5

Session 3
Deadlifts - using the timed format I like.
Front squats - 3 sets of 3. will move this up to 5x3 when ready.
Split squats again

Session 4.
Push press - just singles, my shoulders seemingly don't mind this as much as strict press, doing the 10 little partial reps at the top.
Push ups on parallettes...just 3 sets of maximum reps
Rows again

After either of these session, I will do whatever extra work I feel like, usually it's core and curls.

It's a 2 week cycle, I go mon/thur for weights. So far it's ok, but the low frequency means I'm sore as fuck after every session

Mobility - these are a full session dedicated to mobility and pre/re hab

Mostly shoulder stuff.

KBs
Arm bars
Windmills
-was going to do TGUs, but I fucking hate them and will do them only if I feel like it.

BANDs
Hartzell's shoulder traction stuff
Pull aparts laying lengthwise on foam roller
Snatch and dislocate (from Chris Duffin)
Face pull to wide press

OTHER
EQI push ups on parallettes
Negative flyes
Shoulder extension stretching and strengthening

KNEES
TKEs
Band leg curls

Then a run through of the Jumpstretch lower body shit

Intensive Conditioning.

Hill jogs, because I have to condition my legs for the sprint - also, I call it ditch runs because basically I go to the levee nearby and run up the ditch and walk down, since it's the nearest thing to the hill. Lots of mosquitos and gnats right now
Prowler or sled work
Battling rope and kettlebell circuits
Cardio boxing

Extensive conditioning (steady state)
-walking
-rucking
-rowing

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WildGorillaMan
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by WildGorillaMan » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:43 pm

I see mobility/strempf/cardio as a three legged stool: without one of those legs you're going to fall over.

You need to do something that makes you get sweaty and breathe hard for extended periods several days a week. An hour is better than forty five minutes, and 30 minutes is better than zero, but an hour is better.

Yoga is fantastic. I wish I'd started it sooner.

Strempf is relative; relative to the other other old guys around you. It's not really all that hard to be substantially more fit than your neighborhood peer group of average white suburbanite slobs.

I'm doing a lot more volume than I used to: lots more sets, and lots more reps in those sets.

You know you're getting old when your warmup includes your first three work sets.
Last edited by WildGorillaMan on Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by SubClaw » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:55 pm

Someone nugget this thread ASAP!

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by climber511 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:15 pm

Training at Age 68
I suppose I should preface this by some history. I lifted my first weights in 1959
I did my biggest Power Lifts in a competition in 1969. I was probably at my best all-around athletically somewhere around 1976 - 78. (28 to 30 years old)
This begins my 58th year under the bar so the newbie gains are long ago and far away for me. This is about me personally and you may not think it applies to you but it might - well if you’re my age anyway. And some of this might even be all right for you young guys and gals.
Trying to get stronger on certain lifts at age 68 equals trying to get injured.
Trying to even maintain strength on some of the big lifts equals being very careful.
Doing lighter weights, a few more reps, and not so much heavy volume equals not feeling so god awful beat up after each workout.
Stretching, prehab, rehab, and lightly loaded mobility are no longer after thoughts but often an entire workout these days.
Floor work, rings, parallelettes, and rock climbing seem to keep me moving as well as I can expect any more.
Many good exercises are no longer so good for me.
Daily aerobics (different each day) is now a must to feel good.
Daily strength work works well for me now days – but it’s always something different – I no longer do a “routine”.
The importance of "standards" like a double body weight dead lift is questionable these days. I can still do it but sometimes wonder why I feel it’s important.
Any grinding during a movement is likely to be a bad thing now.
Doing something daily is critical when you are retired and your day to day life does not involve a lot of movement as a requirement the way work always did for me.
Carries have a tremendous value now that they didn’t have back when I worked the mail route and carried weight for miles every single day.
When you develop a way of eating based on walking 6 hours a day then playing with kids, or doing construction work, then hard training for a couple hours etc every day - those eating habits are very hard to break when life changes and your job is napping or reading a book these days.
Mentally adjusting to workouts that would not even have been a warm up years ago is hard - very hard.
I couldn’t workout as regularly as I do without having my own well equipped home gym just a few steps away. And to put up with the things that go on in a commercial gym now would drive me crazy.
Sometimes it’s the really small things like stretching and strengthening the muscles in your feet that can make all the difference.
If your glutes don’t work the way they should your lower back has to take up the slack -something it isn’t designed for. This is something I learned late - like after a few low back issues. My big early back injuries were from catastrophic events like car wrecks that nothing was going to help with but as time went on with the glutes not doing their share properly. I think I built up improper movement patterns that contributed to more problems down the line.
A typical day as a 68 year old retiree is pretty much like that of most office workers of any age. Very little movement in only a few plans of motion and a large part of the day spent sitting down - a pretty unhealthy situation for sure. The advantage is that I have the free time to do something about it by adding in deliberate exercise targeting the problems associated with such a lifestyle.

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Really Big Strong Guy » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:18 pm

47 here. And I now spend more time doing recovery and warm up exercises than I do lifting.

I'm a big advocate of SMR and rolling (both before and after training). I also have my own EMS unit that I use with ice which is magic manna. I have hot stones that are round that I roll on to hit hard spots. I also get a deep tissue massage once every two weeks. I am a big believer in ice wraps and icing joints the day of a training session.

I am an avid yoga practicioner. Normally two sessions daily. Meditate multiple times during the day as well.

My sport and the training for my sport is a wonderful total body workout. Even the wood gathering necessary for training is wonderful GPP.

Still lift regularly. Always total body and normally 3 to 4 days a week. Hard to do on consecutive days, but can still pull it off when I'm well rested and do all my mobility. Always start with a dynamic (Olympic speed) movement, then a pull supporting the movement, then an overhead, then a squat of some, then accessory movements to support limbs - chest press, lat pulldowns, and arms (all for injury prevention and bodybuilding style pump training).

I do not train that heavy that often. I listen to my body. I try to ramp up, then deload. Normally, I listen to my body. If I'm feeling strong, I add some weight and sets. If I'm not feeling strong or something achy, I limit the weight and the sets. Listening to my body has become paramount.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by syaigh » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:57 pm

Another way to approach this is to do everything cyclically. I do this with my middle aged and older clients. We may spend 3-4 months building strength with higher intensity, lower volume, and then switch that to higher volume, lower intensity, and then there's always a break where we do light implement endurance/power training that is more conditioning based. I always tell them to keep up their LSD cardio.

I like to switch between goals, somtimes at the same time. For example, after throwing season last year, I did just pure strength and endurance via rowing before getting back into strength for throwing and throwing. I was working on building up some background mileage and so after my big games in July, switched over entirely to running for a while. After my half marathon in November, I'm going back to some strength and power training with background endurance while I slowing build throwing back in.

The reason I like this way of doing things is because I just don't have a lot of time and 3-4 days a week of training are all I can get in most weeks and trying to have more than 2 areas of concentration is a little futile and I end up either grinding myself to a nub or unable to focus well enough.

I've never found myself to significantly lose anything by laying off of it for a while unless its like 4 years. But, even by not running for 4 years, I wasn't a total mess when I picked it back up because I'm still training similar qualities throughout the year (endurance, cardio, leg strength, power).

I'll be 44 in November.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Ryan » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:04 am

Flexibility/mobility and conditioning definitely more of a focus as I get older (just turned 45).

Switched to mainly bodyweight movements (but add weight to dips/chins).

Brief KB intervals and then steady state work.

Some type of stretching/yoga/mobility work almost everyday.
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seeahill
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by seeahill » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:18 am

At 72, my goals have changed a lot. Everything I do is designed to put off the deleterious effects of aging. I want to be able to walk. I do not want to be in a scooter or wheelchair. I want to be able to pick up a 40 pound bag of dog food in the market and carry it to the cashier. I do not want to have to stop twice to catch my breath climbing a single flight of stairs.

Recreationally, my greatest joy is walking in the mountains. I want to stay in shape for that, and for a bit of camping, and I want to do that for as long as I am able.

Therefore, the majority of my "workouts" consist of walking. Not biking, not rowing, not lifting: walking.

I spend a lot of time walking in the mountains (just outside my backdoor.) I do some cardio type walking, at the 12-13 minute/mile mark. At 13, your body wants to run. Walking is inefficient and you have to work harder at it than running at that speed. So walking is my running, with none of the injuries associated with running. (Oh, I get plantar fasciitis now and again, but I'm so familiar with it that I can feel it coming on and simply back off my program for a week or so. Works for me.)

I sometimes dance to music while pumping small weights: 2 pounders, 5, 10 pounders).

I do not lift anymore. I used to jungle kettlebells, the one poods. My problem always was that I wanted to get, say, 10 catches in a row. I might flip the kb out too far in front of me and still reach for it to make the catch. Bad for my back.

I've tried Yoga and think highly of DDP Yoga. I just can't stay with it.

I'm in the middle of GMB's Elements program and like it. I can stay with it. There are a lot of stretches like hip openers and arm circles which generally make me feel food. The main even in each Elements workout is a combination of strength endurance and skill. What keeps me at it is the skill part. I like getting better at things, even goofy frog like hops (which I can see leading into a handstand, an exercise I think I can still do with some practice.)

I'll probably go through Elements twice more, then work on doing the movements freestyle. We'll see.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by stanley_white » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:30 am

Beyond old man training can we discuss when the transitions take place from lifting emphasis to cardio or mobility etc and what the stimulus was that made folks realize it was time for a transition?

-Stan

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tough old man
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by tough old man » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:04 am

Stan, my transition came a few weeks ago squatting with college footballers. Worked in and eventually got to the point they were using wraps and stuff. One said that it was ok for me to quit at 4 plates. I said fuck off and added quarters and a belt. Did a few reps and decided it was really stupid to do that. That's it. I'm healthy with no injuries. 5'7" and 225 pounds.
Ive hit a bunch of goals and want to keep what I have and stay injury free.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:31 am

Lot of good thought process here. For my money, most is too complex to digest and implement with so many differing motivations backgrounds etc.

If this were my goal:
tough old man wrote: want to keep what I have and stay injury free.
2 days a week I'd focus on lifts I enjoy, High reps squats with knee wraps, loading sub-maximal atlas stones, log clean and press for reps.

I'd take up running OUTSIDE /rucking/hiking/or mountain hunting at least 2 other days a week, and

I'd do 3 warm to hot yoga classes a week for a year.

Bonus round, do a meditation program at the local Buddhist center.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:44 am

You'll note my strategem also allows you access to several demographics.

Thick and delicious skrong girls
Running Pixy Milfs and outdoorsy types
Bored Yoga Mommies
Contemplative hippy chicks
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Polo Tomasi » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:02 am

56 here.
The most important thing for me is to ignore the concept of a 7 day week. I train when I feel like I'm ready to. There's no pussy factor when I just don't feel up to it. And when things feel really heavy I drop down and do some reps; no shame. Then I'll take week or so and go easy and build back slowly.
That being said, I still feel there is room for strength improvement, just no room for young guy stupidity. I train alone.
I wish I'd figured out all of this 30 years ago.

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Shafpocalypse Now
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:38 am

In Oregon while rock climbing I had a moment that kicked me in the nuts, and for the first time in maybe 2 decades I felt weak. Maybe 3.

Realized I had been spinning my wheels trying to hold onto some stuff that didn't matter to me any more. It struck me that it was the path, not the destination, and I had wandered.

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Sangoma » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:10 am

There is a definite shift of focus from the destination to the journey as I age. Maybe my insecurities are calming down, but I am more content with "punching the clock" concept than even couple of years ago. Since I stopped trying to get a number in whatever lift it is I haven't been hurt to a significant degree. Sure, some pulls, sprains and aches now and then, but not to the point of regret of what I did in the last session.

I have neglected mobility and endurance, and I think these two are very important for good ageing. One of the tests of overall being for me is to watch the patient getting from his bed to the operating table. Often 90-odd year old do it faster - by a minute - than some in their forties, obese, weak and short of breath at slightest effort. Along with few other things it predicts recovery more often than not.

Another thing I noticed as years go by is the increasing effect of physical impact on the body. What I mean is: when you were eight year old kid falling wasn't a big deal, even onto a concrete. You fall, get up, rub whatever was hurt and in a minute forget all about it. In your thirties - falls are not catastrophic, but not taken as lightly as couple decades earlier. A fall on a flat surface in advanced age can easily kill. My point is: I cannot provide studies, but I think some sort of impact training is very likely to be beneficial. Some sort of falling or tumbling.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by WildGorillaMan » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:02 pm

Polo Tomasi wrote:
That being said, I still feel there is room for strength improvement, just no room for young guy stupidity.
So very much truthiness right here.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Kirk » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:31 pm

The flexibility stuff is what I've neglected. The gym at work is going to be free for employees starting in October so I'm going to give a yoga class a try. I couldn't motivate myself to do yrg.

I'd like to do something a little bit nuts with the endurance stuff and do a 50 mile running race when I turn 50 (2019). I've been doing alright with the running and have seen decent health impacts. I don't really think the 50 mile run thing is necessarily healthy but it should be an interesting challenge. I'd like to see where my lower body strength goes during that time...

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:35 pm

I saw balance & mobility starting to go at 50ish. I never had real strength but I wanted to get something going in that area before it was too late. My strategy informs my program and there are hundreds of strategies and programs but here's where I generally am right now.

Right now:
1) 1 or 2 days / week lifting for strength
2) 1 or 2 days / week doing martial arts for strength endurance, balance, timing (part of balance), flexibility & cardio
3) 5 to 7 days / week doing qigong. Some with a strength component and others with a balance component
4) 5-7 days of joint mobility (based mostly on Maxwell's Daily Dozen) and takes about 5 minutes
5) 5-7 days of simple stretching for about 5 minutes of less
4) Other stuff as I feel like it or can't get to #1-3 above. Can include walking, hiking, canoeing, shoveling snow, BW exercises, etc.

Most days everything I do over the course of the day takes less than an hour. Some days it's 1/2 hour or less. Only the lifting and martial arts are real work. The rest is easy.
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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Mickey O'neil » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:26 pm

It's called mountain biking.
Sangoma wrote:My point is: I cannot provide studies, but I think some sort of impact training is very likely to be beneficial. Some sort of falling or tumbling.

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by SubClaw » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:30 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:I saw balance & mobility starting to go at 50ish. I never had real strength but I wanted to get something going in that area before it was too late. My strategy informs my program and there are hundreds of strategies and programs but here's where I generally am right now.

Right now:
1) 1 or 2 days / week lifting for strength
2) 1 or 2 days / week doing martial arts for strength endurance, balance, timing (part of balance), flexibility & cardio
3) 5 to 7 days / week doing qigong. Some with a strength component and others with a balance component
4) 5-7 days of joint mobility (based mostly on Maxwell's Daily Dozen) and takes about 5 minutes
5) 5-7 days of simple stretching for about 5 minutes of less
4) Other stuff as I feel like it or can't get to #1-3 above. Can include walking, hiking, canoeing, shoveling snow, BW exercises, etc.

Most days everything I do over the course of the day takes less than an hour. Some days it's 1/2 hour or less. Only the lifting and martial arts are real work. The rest is easy.
I REALLY dig this.

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by tonkadtx » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:35 pm

41 yo.

Best thing I ever did was switch to the 2x2x2 or Isaac Hayes Template from this Board. I do repeated three day cycles. Ignore weeks. When I need a day off (or two) I take one and pick up where I left off. I do try to take off days after a full 3 day cycle if possible, if not no sweat.
Still do judo a couple of nights a week.

For Strength I was doing revolving 2 day programs and finally settled on

2 days lifting/2 days Maffetone Cardio Minimum 30, Max 60/ 2 days Yrg (Diamond Cutter/the one around 60)

I have been using this from Shaf with TBDL and Safety Bar Squats because it requires minimal warmups for me and I like it.
Workout 1:
Deadlift - OTM work capacity style. Will explain below.
OHP/Pull Up (ladder supersets) (OHP will be a 2/3/5 ladder, Pull ups will be 1/2/3 or whatever you can manage right now)
-whatever other stuff you want. I would suggest some kind of core work.

Workout 2:
Squat variation: OTM work capacity style: as per below
Bench/Pendlay Row ladder superset
-whatever other stuff you want, once again, core work. Fill in the holes, maybe biceps, calves, push ups...whatever, just don't tack on another hour after your main work.

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Re: Old Man Training

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:13 pm

I might just switch to that. L U L Z

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