Generalised muscle aches

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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by powerlifter54 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:16 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote: Overtraining* (see also many diatribes on this subject..I think it's poorly understood) is the result of having not done ENOUGH to train at the level you're attempting. How to balance this?

More frequency with light loads and volumes
More sleep* (this is more important than drugs or food or drugs AND food)
More of the right food
More restoratives -chemical to therapeutic modes like ice/heat/massage
More active attention to doing as little as possible.

In short...You're probably giving too many fucks about the wrong things and not enough fucks about the right things. Right things include.
Training like a man(littlke bit every day) and not some fucking werewolf (once a month leaving yourself naked in a pool of blood)
getting your cardio in
resting like it's your job.
Have said this before but it bears reapeting, imho performance enhancing drugs do great things for your strength and recovery, but you earn your ability to do volume, on or off. For long periods i trained with a very wisely sauced crew, and i could outwork them in most individual workouts since i did a lot of extra workouts. Not initially as i bought into the USAPL attitude of "we just can't do that". Yes we could and yes i did. i trained a lot, but i did more days of extra workouts, and a lot of restorative measures. Ate a lot, was careful about sleep and skipped a lot of things that didn't make my lifts better. And again every fourth week i backed off. And week 1 back at it my groove was shaky, which i pretty much corrected by moving from doing other things than the lifts on back off weeks to mainly doing just my warmups on back off weeks. And since i did a lot of sled dragging and other recovery stuff on a normal week, on back off weeks i just didn't.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by syaigh » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:15 pm

Semi-off topic. I have been training through the spring and summer for a half marathon. I have trained through some pretty painful plantar fasciitis which finally seemed to be going away, but after a 12 mile run last weekend my right knee is extremely painful and I can't bear weight on it. It's not the actual knee, but the proximal tibia on the inside of the top of my shin. About 2 inches below and to the left of my knee cap. My husband is an ER Doc and he thinks it's probably some inflammation around the tendons and ligaments that attach to the top of the medial tibia. I haven't run on it for over a week and I still can't. Not that I won't it's I literally cannot run on it without severe pain. I posted a picture on my training Journal. If any of you have knowledge of soft tissue injuries of the knee I would really appreciate you checking it out and letting me know what you think. I am going to go into my doctor tomorrow and ask that it be x-rayed in case it's a stress fracture. My mother broke her leg in that area stepping off of a step but she was much older and a lot more inactive than I am.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by nafod » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:40 pm

syaigh wrote:Semi-off topic. I have been training through the spring and summer for a half marathon. I have trained through some pretty painful plantar fasciitis which finally seemed to be going away, but after a 12 mile run last weekend my right knee is extremely painful and I can't bear weight on it. It's not the actual knee, but the proximal tibia on the inside of the top of my shin. About 2 inches below and to the left of my knee cap. My husband is an ER Doc and he thinks it's probably some inflammation around the tendons and ligaments that attach to the top of the medial tibia. I haven't run on it for over a week and I still can't. Not that I won't it's I literally cannot run on it without severe pain. I posted a picture on my training Journal. If any of you have knowledge of soft tissue injuries of the knee I would really appreciate you checking it out and letting me know what you think. I am going to go into my doctor tomorrow and ask that it be x-rayed in case it's a stress fracture. My mother broke her leg in that area stepping off of a step but she was much older and a lot more inactive than I am.
Sure screams stress fracture (plateau fracture?) to me. I'm not a doc, though. Hopefully just some soft tissue stuff. As a past Clydesdale marathon runner, I've had a lot of pounding issues, but not that one.

Are you a heel striker? Squishy shoes? Change your gait due to foot problem?
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by syaigh » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:07 pm

Im a forefoot striker but the plantar fasciitis made me run funny on my right foot. Funny thing is, ive been running notmally the past four weeks but i guess the volume increse was probably too much. Was following a beginner galloway program.

Thank you. Im hoping its not broken, but i broke my foot this summer and its feeling similar
Last edited by syaigh on Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by TerryB » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:39 pm

sounds like lupus
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by syaigh » Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:17 am

TerryB wrote:sounds like lupus
Sounds like your mother.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:56 am

powerlifter54 wrote: Have said this before but it bears reapeting, imho performance enhancing drugs do great things for your strength and recovery, but you earn your ability to do volume, on or off. For long periods i trained with a very wisely sauced crew, and i could outwork them in most individual workouts since i did a lot of extra workouts.
I got back and forth on this. I can outwork most of my partners whether they or I are juiced or not...the interesting thing is that this rarely gets me anywhere, whereas targeted volume and real specific points, pushes me forward very quickly..on or off. When ON 96 weeks out) I get a huge amount out of volume and recovery but not that much strength bump. I think this may be wildly variable but I totally echo your observation above.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Sangoma » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:13 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:FWIW.....I'm a nearing 50 semi dessicated corpse of a human with typical ortho injuries attesting to a vigorous life including two super shitty. very expensive knees. I'm walking around with the usual list of soft tissue fuckery we all get over time. I'm 5 weeks out from IPL worlds and have been training pretty much nonstop without major deloads since mid June. In that time I have walked off two adductor tears. As of right now and the last 8 weeks I feel fine. I get cripplingly sore for maybe a day after a high volume or high % session but for the most part, I've not had a single major setback. Why?

I try to nap like it's my job (10 minute increments in necessary) and I do absolutely FUCKALL when I'm feeling tired (meet for drinks? NOPE, come over for a BBQ? NOPE, hang out after work and watch the game? NOPE). I take all the restoratives I can stand ([email protected] a week, BPC157, low dose of a hard androgen at 6 weeks out and Pentosan OAW) I use copius amounts of THC tincture to help me sleep at nigth and when I'm remotely hungry I'll drink a pint of heavy cream and eat anything that amuses me.

In short if i were to compare what you're doing to what i'm doing and the way it makes you feel*..I'm guessing you're not doing enough. To combat the effects of having over reached you need to do MORE not less. Overtraining* (see also many diatribes on this subject..I think it's poorly understood) is the result of having not done ENOUGH to train at the level you're attempting. How to balance this?

More frequency with light loads and volumes
More sleep* (this is more important than drugs or food or drugs AND food)
More of the right food
More restoratives -chemical to therapeutic modes like ice/heat/massage
More active attention to doing as little as possible.

In short...You're probably giving too many fucks about the wrong things and not enough fucks about the right things. Right things include.
Training like a man(littlke bit every day) and not some fucking werewolf (once a month leaving yourself naked in a pool of blood)
getting your cardio in
resting like it's your job.
This is really good. I think we all gave up on Shaf writing book, and I think we should start pestering you instead.

When you say a little bit every day - what do you have in mind? Pavel's PTTP style? 10 reps per session, sets of 3 to 5? How many lifts per session? Waving the load as per his book? Surely you have come across a lot of wimpy 53 year olds like me, what kind of load/volume you reckon would be optimal?

BTW, I am serious about you putting together a book. I think Dan John some time ago mentioned that 50-something crowd makes good trainees. They have more time - kids are mostly out of the hair, enough money to buy stuff, motivated, even if to survive past 55 :rolleyes: getting healthier and stronger and maybe even looking better being nice bonuses.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by powerlifter54 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:08 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote: Have said this before but it bears reapeting, imho performance enhancing drugs do great things for your strength and recovery, but you earn your ability to do volume, on or off. For long periods i trained with a very wisely sauced crew, and i could outwork them in most individual workouts since i did a lot of extra workouts.
I got back and forth on this. I can outwork most of my partners whether they or I are juiced or not...the interesting thing is that this rarely gets me anywhere, whereas targeted volume and real specific points, pushes me forward very quickly..on or off. When ON 96 weeks out) I get a huge amount out of volume and recovery but not that much strength bump. I think this may be wildly variable but I totally echo your observation above.
Yeah volume for volume's sake is just a @fit workout. When you are training for a specific task or meet i use the Dave Tate guideline of you need to be able to simply and easily explain exactly why you are doing what you do. From your main lift rep/sets/frequency/load to your choice of assistance and both internal and external restoratives. In the end you have to gradually increase your volume over your training life and in my opinion over each cycle. Have not yet tried AS but as Louie famously said he leaves a bench shirt and a bottle of test on his dresser and so far it hasn't benched anything.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:34 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote: Have said this before but it bears reapeting, imho performance enhancing drugs do great things for your strength and recovery, but you earn your ability to do volume, on or off. For long periods i trained with a very wisely sauced crew, and i could outwork them in most individual workouts since i did a lot of extra workouts.
I got back and forth on this. I can outwork most of my partners whether they or I are juiced or not...the interesting thing is that this rarely gets me anywhere, whereas targeted volume and real specific points, pushes me forward very quickly..on or off. When ON 96 weeks out) I get a huge amount out of volume and recovery but not that much strength bump. I think this may be wildly variable but I totally echo your observation above.
Yeah volume for volume's sake is just a @fit workout. When you are training for a specific task or meet i use the Dave Tate guideline of you need to be able to simply and easily explain exactly why you are doing what you do. From your main lift rep/sets/frequency/load to your choice of assistance and both internal and external restoratives. In the end you have to gradually increase your volume over your training life and in my opinion over each cycle. Have not yet tried AS but as Louie famously said he leaves a bench shirt and a bottle of test on his dresser and so far it hasn't benched anything.
Agreed. Fully.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:53 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:FWIW.....I'm a nearing 50 semi dessicated corpse of a human with typical ortho injuries attesting to a vigorous life including two super shitty. very expensive knees. I'm walking around with the usual list of soft tissue fuckery we all get over time. I'm 5 weeks out from IPL worlds and have been training pretty much nonstop without major deloads since mid June. In that time I have walked off two adductor tears. As of right now and the last 8 weeks I feel fine. I get cripplingly sore for maybe a day after a high volume or high % session but for the most part, I've not had a single major setback. Why?

I try to nap like it's my job (10 minute increments in necessary) and I do absolutely FUCKALL when I'm feeling tired (meet for drinks? NOPE, come over for a BBQ? NOPE, hang out after work and watch the game? NOPE). I take all the restoratives I can stand ([email protected] a week, BPC157, low dose of a hard androgen at 6 weeks out and Pentosan OAW) I use copius amounts of THC tincture to help me sleep at nigth and when I'm remotely hungry I'll drink a pint of heavy cream and eat anything that amuses me.

In short if i were to compare what you're doing to what i'm doing and the way it makes you feel*..I'm guessing you're not doing enough. To combat the effects of having over reached you need to do MORE not less. Overtraining* (see also many diatribes on this subject..I think it's poorly understood) is the result of having not done ENOUGH to train at the level you're attempting. How to balance this?

More frequency with light loads and volumes
More sleep* (this is more important than drugs or food or drugs AND food)
More of the right food
More restoratives -chemical to therapeutic modes like ice/heat/massage
More active attention to doing as little as possible.

In short...You're probably giving too many fucks about the wrong things and not enough fucks about the right things. Right things include.
Training like a man(littlke bit every day) and not some fucking werewolf (once a month leaving yourself naked in a pool of blood)
getting your cardio in
resting like it's your job.
This is really good. I think we all gave up on Shaf writing book, and I think we should start pestering you instead.

When you say a little bit every day - what do you have in mind? Pavel's PTTP style? 10 reps per session, sets of 3 to 5? How many lifts per session? Waving the load as per his book? Surely you have come across a lot of wimpy 53 year olds like me, what kind of load/volume you reckon would be optimal?

BTW, I am serious about you putting together a book. I think Dan John some time ago mentioned that 50-something crowd makes good trainees. They have more time - kids are mostly out of the hair, enough money to buy stuff, motivated, even if to survive past 55 :rolleyes: getting healthier and stronger and maybe even looking better being nice bonuses.

I strongly dislike the prescriptive PTTP/DJ stuff. I used to really like it..then I did it. Felt like I went backwards overtime. For now I use this semi guideline that I really developed over a long process of talking here with Jack and trying a slew of different approaches. I feel it is not specific to the discipline.

The separation is in the preparation or my warm up is your workout.


Thing One.

What's your warm up? For the more advanced in training age or chronological age, having a dialed in warm up process is really essential. IMO, these should be specific to the work you are planning on for the day. I have a bench warm up. I have a dead warm up. I have a squat warm up a warm up for stones, a warm up for throws a warm up for log press....

Once you have this dialed in (a massive thread devoted to this would be illuminating given the range of practice and experience here....) then your warm up is literally some people's workout. I never log my full warm up but it takes about 10-20 minutes and it is a great baromoter for the day.

Thing two. There's only this thing and then the next thing

Once you've run through your warm up, then you have a sense of how to proceed. This is a double edge sword. As many of us have discussed, some days a terrible warm up means a great session is on tap. In some cases a smooth warm up means you;re going to feel like shit. Understandign what you're feeling in the warm up is an iterative learning process but over the course of many sessions you get a sense not necessarily of being able to predict the outcome of the workout but understand9ign that when X happens, do Y, when Y happens, do Z...etc. More an more in programming I don;t care about the predictive power of a long term plan, I want to know what to do next. Amateurs discuss strategies, professional talk logistics.

Thing Three.....You should be able to warm up every day, twice a day....

If you have been able to really dial in your warm up and use it frequently as a gauge for how you should do work on a given say, the next logical step is...you can do your warm up sequence any and every day of the week....This approach is completely autoregulatory. You just go in, do the warm up, then decide...is this a day to push or a day to cruise?

In practice for me, a squat warm up looks like.
10min of light mobility-rope skip, ankle rotations, hips opening drills
reverse hyper-sometimes...
club bell shield casts and face pulls
band around knees squat BW only to a low box
Pause squat the bar only for 15-60 seconds
squat:
135x5
225x4
315x3
365x2
405x1

Now...at this point, I'm ready to go. The volume is super low, the percentages are low, i didn't need to even put on a belt and I can do this every day of the week even multiple times per day.

Now if this is all you did every day, you'd make nearly no progress. Some days you HAVE to push beyond the warm up but on many days, a warm up is just enough to prime to pump, get in some motor learning and get you excited about lifting..the routine not variety is what keeps you fresh.

How this works over a long haul can be quite surprising. I did the exact warm up routine above, 5-6 days a week for 12 weeks at one point. Some days I squatted a couple singles at 405, some days 3x3 at 315, many days I went up to 225 and called it quits. I did this every day based on the idea that all I'm doing is warming up to lift...you should be able to warm up to a lift any and every day of the week....and if you;re doing it right, there's real learning/neurological benefits to doing so. You just float your volume and intensity, recognizing bigger days have a cost, smaller days are only nudging the progress along but ultimatly every person has at any given point, an optimal amount of work they can do.


Does this make sense?
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Sangoma » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:51 pm

It does make sense. Just one thing: if I understand correctly you are going only after one lift per training session, right?
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:20 pm

Sangoma wrote:It does make sense. Just one thing: if I understand correctly you are going only after one lift per training session, right?
That is my typical approach. I think one can probably do two major lifts per session but I would always rank them A/B priority. As for supplementary work or conditioning, these are best done separately.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Sangoma » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:28 pm

Thanks.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:36 pm

I should clarify that within a given template, (lets say your typical squat/bench/dead split) this is also the way I typically add days to ramp up frequency..Over time I find that once you've go from 3 to 5 days a week, you start to find your rhythm for adding or subtracting work within a given session. Until you're at 5 days a week, it can be difficult to accurately anticipate how your body will respond to a given session or series of sessions.

I know this is probably confusing for a lot of IGX'er who have sort of a generalized soup to nuts approach to strength/conditioning/hypertrophy etc. I could probably explain off an example better than trying to fabricate a plan whole cloth if that's a line of discussion someone wants to chase.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:54 pm

That does raise an issue, if you are a full body session guy, whether it's a Korte style 3x3 where you bench, squat, and deadlift in the same session, or rotate through full body sessions that might be more generalized, the warm up probably changes in certain ways.,

Like
General Warm Up (sweat going, general loosening)
LIFT 1 Specific warm up and mob
LIFT 1 ramp up
LIFT 1 work

LIFT 2 Specific warm up and mob
LIFT 2 ramp up
LIFT 2 work

LIFT 3 Specific WU & Mob
LIFT 3 ramp up
LIFT 3 work

Also, there is shit that probably doesn't have to be warmed up for for most people...isolate exercises generally require just a ramp up. In general, maybe get back to Leo Costa's exercise classification (found here in Big Beyond Belief http://www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/Bi ... -eBook.pdf ) and the higher up the list you go, the more likely you will need more warm ups

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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:54 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:That does raise an issue, if you are a full body session guy, whether it's a Korte style 3x3 where you bench, squat, and deadlift in the same session, or rotate through full body sessions that might be more generalized, the warm up probably changes in certain ways.,

Like
General Warm Up (sweat going, general loosening)
LIFT 1 Specific warm up and mob
LIFT 1 ramp up
LIFT 1 work

LIFT 2 Specific warm up and mob
LIFT 2 ramp up
LIFT 2 work

LIFT 3 Specific WU & Mob
LIFT 3 ramp up
LIFT 3 work

Also, there is shit that probably doesn't have to be warmed up for for most people...isolate exercises generally require just a ramp up. In general, maybe get back to Leo Costa's exercise classification (found here in Big Beyond Belief http://www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/Bi ... -eBook.pdf ) and the higher up the list you go, the more likely you will need more warm ups
That's a really good point. Clearly not an issue for me as I'm a one to two lift guy. With a training template that is more generalized, I think you need to be very very specific about what works for you, have a very generalized all purpose warm up and the ability to exercise a lot of self control in the ramping up. For WL/PL/SM/HG/runningcyclingswimming/GS etc, where a single silo of capability is being taxed this is easy. If yore a wrestler or a field athlete, it gets much more fine grained I'm sure. Although..I will say this, in the track and field strength programs I've touched, we actually put a decent amount of strength work in the warm up which is counter intuitive on the one hand but makes sense when you consider that for most track athletes, strength training is at first, primarily skill work.
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:42 pm

This is why shit like the agile 8 and whatever upper body WU dejour gets popular. . Duffin had a decent idea... 1 minute movement prep, where you find the single best prep movement for your main movement and pound it out before Ramping up.

On ramp up sets... The decrepit gentleman usually finds the more the better.

It used to be my ramp up was
135
225
315
405
GO

now it's probably twice as many sets, but lower reps

In fact today I didn't take enough sets and my knees are aching

Also, we used to do the whole damn Parisi speed school warm up before lifting lower body, and that worked well but was kinda long, and left new folks tired... It was nice e to be able to feel that warm and ready though

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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by powerlifter54 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:33 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:FWIW.....I'm a nearing 50 semi dessicated corpse of a human with typical ortho injuries attesting to a vigorous life including two super shitty. very expensive knees. I'm walking around with the usual list of soft tissue fuckery we all get over time. I'm 5 weeks out from IPL worlds and have been training pretty much nonstop without major deloads since mid June. In that time I have walked off two adductor tears. As of right now and the last 8 weeks I feel fine. I get cripplingly sore for maybe a day after a high volume or high % session but for the most part, I've not had a single major setback. Why?

I try to nap like it's my job (10 minute increments in necessary) and I do absolutely FUCKALL when I'm feeling tired (meet for drinks? NOPE, come over for a BBQ? NOPE, hang out after work and watch the game? NOPE). I take all the restoratives I can stand ([email protected] a week, BPC157, low dose of a hard androgen at 6 weeks out and Pentosan OAW) I use copius amounts of THC tincture to help me sleep at nigth and when I'm remotely hungry I'll drink a pint of heavy cream and eat anything that amuses me.

In short if i were to compare what you're doing to what i'm doing and the way it makes you feel*..I'm guessing you're not doing enough. To combat the effects of having over reached you need to do MORE not less. Overtraining* (see also many diatribes on this subject..I think it's poorly understood) is the result of having not done ENOUGH to train at the level you're attempting. How to balance this?

More frequency with light loads and volumes
More sleep* (this is more important than drugs or food or drugs AND food)
More of the right food
More restoratives -chemical to therapeutic modes like ice/heat/massage
More active attention to doing as little as possible.

In short...You're probably giving too many fucks about the wrong things and not enough fucks about the right things. Right things include.
Training like a man(littlke bit every day) and not some fucking werewolf (once a month leaving yourself naked in a pool of blood)
getting your cardio in
resting like it's your job.
This is really good. I think we all gave up on Shaf writing book, and I think we should start pestering you instead.

When you say a little bit every day - what do you have in mind? Pavel's PTTP style? 10 reps per session, sets of 3 to 5? How many lifts per session? Waving the load as per his book? Surely you have come across a lot of wimpy 53 year olds like me, what kind of load/volume you reckon would be optimal?

BTW, I am serious about you putting together a book. I think Dan John some time ago mentioned that 50-something crowd makes good trainees. They have more time - kids are mostly out of the hair, enough money to buy stuff, motivated, even if to survive past 55 :rolleyes: getting healthier and stronger and maybe even looking better being nice bonuses.

I strongly dislike the prescriptive PTTP/DJ stuff. I used to really like it..then I did it. Felt like I went backwards overtime. For now I use this semi guideline that I really developed over a long process of talking here with Jack and trying a slew of different approaches. I feel it is not specific to the discipline.

The separation is in the preparation or my warm up is your workout.


Thing One.

What's your warm up? For the more advanced in training age or chronological age, having a dialed in warm up process is really essential. IMO, these should be specific to the work you are planning on for the day. I have a bench warm up. I have a dead warm up. I have a squat warm up a warm up for stones, a warm up for throws a warm up for log press....

Once you have this dialed in (a massive thread devoted to this would be illuminating given the range of practice and experience here....) then your warm up is literally some people's workout. I never log my full warm up but it takes about 10-20 minutes and it is a great baromoter for the day.

Thing two. There's only this thing and then the next thing

Once you've run through your warm up, then you have a sense of how to proceed. This is a double edge sword. As many of us have discussed, some days a terrible warm up means a great session is on tap. In some cases a smooth warm up means you;re going to feel like shit. Understandign what you're feeling in the warm up is an iterative learning process but over the course of many sessions you get a sense not necessarily of being able to predict the outcome of the workout but understand9ign that when X happens, do Y, when Y happens, do Z...etc. More an more in programming I don;t care about the predictive power of a long term plan, I want to know what to do next. Amateurs discuss strategies, professional talk logistics.

Thing Three.....You should be able to warm up every day, twice a day....

If you have been able to really dial in your warm up and use it frequently as a gauge for how you should do work on a given say, the next logical step is...you can do your warm up sequence any and every day of the week....This approach is completely autoregulatory. You just go in, do the warm up, then decide...is this a day to push or a day to cruise?

In practice for me, a squat warm up looks like.
10min of light mobility-rope skip, ankle rotations, hips opening drills
reverse hyper-sometimes...
club bell shield casts and face pulls
band around knees squat BW only to a low box
Pause squat the bar only for 15-60 seconds
squat:
135x5
225x4
315x3
365x2
405x1

Now...at this point, I'm ready to go. The volume is super low, the percentages are low, i didn't need to even put on a belt and I can do this every day of the week even multiple times per day.

Now if this is all you did every day, you'd make nearly no progress. Some days you HAVE to push beyond the warm up but on many days, a warm up is just enough to prime to pump, get in some motor learning and get you excited about lifting..the routine not variety is what keeps you fresh.

How this works over a long haul can be quite surprising. I did the exact warm up routine above, 5-6 days a week for 12 weeks at one point. Some days I squatted a couple singles at 405, some days 3x3 at 315, many days I went up to 225 and called it quits. I did this every day based on the idea that all I'm doing is warming up to lift...you should be able to warm up to a lift any and every day of the week....and if you;re doing it right, there's real learning/neurological benefits to doing so. You just float your volume and intensity, recognizing bigger days have a cost, smaller days are only nudging the progress along but ultimatly every person has at any given point, an optimal amount of work they can do.


Does this make sense?
This is something worth reading and understanding. i have done PTTP and 40 days, and while i like having it in the bag of tricks i find it really only useful for coming back from a layoff or when you are really time constrained and are doing just enough to hold some level of strength. And for time constraints i actually like Heavy Duty Menzter/Yates stuff a bit better. Another rant another day. On the other hand Easy Strength is one of my all time favorite training books, and the idea of deciding to push based on your ramp up is extremely critical for long term training. i think you can metricize it with tendo machines and RPE, but learning how you feel in a similar warmup works just as good, if not better. A HUGE concept BD and i have discussed is the second warmup set at the same weight. Yes you can miss a great day if your warmup is rough and you bolt, so repeating an iffy warm up set is about as good a predictor as i know for discerning stay or go. If the second warmup set doesn't get better, you probably need to shut it down. It is amazing how a set can feel so bad, then on repeat it feels locked in. This concept needs to be in everybodies bag of tricks.

My warmup, like several mentioned above was 135, 225, 315, 405. The reps i played with from the number i was planning on that day to all 3s to 5/3/2/1. But to prepare for rushed warmup rooms and easier loading i would mix in 155,245, 335, 425 in case i ran into a set of 100s on the bar in the warmup room. Stranger things have caused lifter meltdowns on meet day. (Before USAPL Nats i would do 155, 265, 375, 485 anticipating KG only in warmup rooms). And lastly this repeated warmup is the key to the 3 day peak i found in "Consistent Winning" and used for years the last two days before a meet.

All of this not only teaches you the feel you need for Autoregulating (nothing automatic, you need to think when doing this), but gives you the basis to work back to. I am actually working to get back to this "warmup" as my workout in about 10-12 months. Because then i will know i am ready to go onto the next phase.

The end game is there is always another day, and going easy and avoiding an injury or tweak is way more beneficial in the long term to going all Barbarian Brothers and going crazy. Fight another day.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

Blaidd Drwg
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:28 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:FWIW.....I'm a nearing 50 semi dessicated corpse of a human with typical ortho injuries attesting to a vigorous life including two super shitty. very expensive knees. I'm walking around with the usual list of soft tissue fuckery we all get over time. I'm 5 weeks out from IPL worlds and have been training pretty much nonstop without major deloads since mid June. In that time I have walked off two adductor tears. As of right now and the last 8 weeks I feel fine. I get cripplingly sore for maybe a day after a high volume or high % session but for the most part, I've not had a single major setback. Why?

I try to nap like it's my job (10 minute increments in necessary) and I do absolutely FUCKALL when I'm feeling tired (meet for drinks? NOPE, come over for a BBQ? NOPE, hang out after work and watch the game? NOPE). I take all the restoratives I can stand ([email protected] a week, BPC157, low dose of a hard androgen at 6 weeks out and Pentosan OAW) I use copius amounts of THC tincture to help me sleep at nigth and when I'm remotely hungry I'll drink a pint of heavy cream and eat anything that amuses me.

In short if i were to compare what you're doing to what i'm doing and the way it makes you feel*..I'm guessing you're not doing enough. To combat the effects of having over reached you need to do MORE not less. Overtraining* (see also many diatribes on this subject..I think it's poorly understood) is the result of having not done ENOUGH to train at the level you're attempting. How to balance this?

More frequency with light loads and volumes
More sleep* (this is more important than drugs or food or drugs AND food)
More of the right food
More restoratives -chemical to therapeutic modes like ice/heat/massage
More active attention to doing as little as possible.

In short...You're probably giving too many fucks about the wrong things and not enough fucks about the right things. Right things include.
Training like a man(littlke bit every day) and not some fucking werewolf (once a month leaving yourself naked in a pool of blood)
getting your cardio in
resting like it's your job.
This is really good. I think we all gave up on Shaf writing book, and I think we should start pestering you instead.

When you say a little bit every day - what do you have in mind? Pavel's PTTP style? 10 reps per session, sets of 3 to 5? How many lifts per session? Waving the load as per his book? Surely you have come across a lot of wimpy 53 year olds like me, what kind of load/volume you reckon would be optimal?

BTW, I am serious about you putting together a book. I think Dan John some time ago mentioned that 50-something crowd makes good trainees. They have more time - kids are mostly out of the hair, enough money to buy stuff, motivated, even if to survive past 55 :rolleyes: getting healthier and stronger and maybe even looking better being nice bonuses.

I strongly dislike the prescriptive PTTP/DJ stuff. I used to really like it..then I did it. Felt like I went backwards overtime. For now I use this semi guideline that I really developed over a long process of talking here with Jack and trying a slew of different approaches. I feel it is not specific to the discipline.

The separation is in the preparation or my warm up is your workout.


Thing One.

What's your warm up? For the more advanced in training age or chronological age, having a dialed in warm up process is really essential. IMO, these should be specific to the work you are planning on for the day. I have a bench warm up. I have a dead warm up. I have a squat warm up a warm up for stones, a warm up for throws a warm up for log press....

Once you have this dialed in (a massive thread devoted to this would be illuminating given the range of practice and experience here....) then your warm up is literally some people's workout. I never log my full warm up but it takes about 10-20 minutes and it is a great baromoter for the day.

Thing two. There's only this thing and then the next thing

Once you've run through your warm up, then you have a sense of how to proceed. This is a double edge sword. As many of us have discussed, some days a terrible warm up means a great session is on tap. In some cases a smooth warm up means you;re going to feel like shit. Understandign what you're feeling in the warm up is an iterative learning process but over the course of many sessions you get a sense not necessarily of being able to predict the outcome of the workout but understand9ign that when X happens, do Y, when Y happens, do Z...etc. More an more in programming I don;t care about the predictive power of a long term plan, I want to know what to do next. Amateurs discuss strategies, professional talk logistics.

Thing Three.....You should be able to warm up every day, twice a day....

If you have been able to really dial in your warm up and use it frequently as a gauge for how you should do work on a given say, the next logical step is...you can do your warm up sequence any and every day of the week....This approach is completely autoregulatory. You just go in, do the warm up, then decide...is this a day to push or a day to cruise?

In practice for me, a squat warm up looks like.
10min of light mobility-rope skip, ankle rotations, hips opening drills
reverse hyper-sometimes...
club bell shield casts and face pulls
band around knees squat BW only to a low box
Pause squat the bar only for 15-60 seconds
squat:
135x5
225x4
315x3
365x2
405x1

Now...at this point, I'm ready to go. The volume is super low, the percentages are low, i didn't need to even put on a belt and I can do this every day of the week even multiple times per day.

Now if this is all you did every day, you'd make nearly no progress. Some days you HAVE to push beyond the warm up but on many days, a warm up is just enough to prime to pump, get in some motor learning and get you excited about lifting..the routine not variety is what keeps you fresh.

How this works over a long haul can be quite surprising. I did the exact warm up routine above, 5-6 days a week for 12 weeks at one point. Some days I squatted a couple singles at 405, some days 3x3 at 315, many days I went up to 225 and called it quits. I did this every day based on the idea that all I'm doing is warming up to lift...you should be able to warm up to a lift any and every day of the week....and if you;re doing it right, there's real learning/neurological benefits to doing so. You just float your volume and intensity, recognizing bigger days have a cost, smaller days are only nudging the progress along but ultimatly every person has at any given point, an optimal amount of work they can do.


Does this make sense?
This is something worth reading and understanding. i have done PTTP and 40 days, and while i like having it in the bag of tricks i find it really only useful for coming back from a layoff or when you are really time constrained and are doing just enough to hold some level of strength. And for time constraints i actually like Heavy Duty Menzter/Yates stuff a bit better. Another rant another day. On the other hand Easy Strength is one of my all time favorite training books, and the idea of deciding to push based on your ramp up is extremely critical for long term training. i think you can metricize it with tendo machines and RPE, but learning how you feel in a similar warmup works just as good, if not better. A HUGE concept BD and i have discussed is the second warmup set at the same weight. Yes you can miss a great day if your warmup is rough and you bolt, so repeating an iffy warm up set is about as good a predictor as i know for discerning stay or go. If the second warmup set doesn't get better, you probably need to shut it down. It is amazing how a set can feel so bad, then on repeat it feels locked in. This concept needs to be in everybodies bag of tricks.

My warmup, like several mentioned above was 135, 225, 315, 405. The reps i played with from the number i was planning on that day to all 3s to 5/3/2/1. But to prepare for rushed warmup rooms and easier loading i would mix in 155,245, 335, 425 in case i ran into a set of 100s on the bar in the warmup room. Stranger things have caused lifter meltdowns on meet day. (Before USAPL Nats i would do 155, 265, 375, 485 anticipating KG only in warmup rooms). And lastly this repeated warmup is the key to the 3 day peak i found in "Consistent Winning" and used for years the last two days before a meet.

All of this not only teaches you the feel you need for Autoregulating (nothing automatic, you need to think when doing this), but gives you the basis to work back to. I am actually working to get back to this "warmup" as my workout in about 10-12 months. Because then i will know i am ready to go onto the next phase.

The end game is there is always another day, and going easy and avoiding an injury or tweak is way more beneficial in the long term to going all Barbarian Brothers and going crazy. Fight another day.
I'm not blowing up anyone's skirt when I say this....If you grok what jack is saying here....IDC what your pursuit, You're gonna have a leg up on everybody reading from the script.

The second warm up set (you see this all the time in practice, lifter, thrower, runner takes a solid effort...it looks a little shaggy, repeat the effort....next set the effort is clean and efficient. OR conversely..the body says game over...this Doctor Watson, is a clue)

Introducing minor variability...(I do this with weird bars or plate combos 155,275,305,455....Jack does kg's or 100's, when you grok your brain & body responds to this, Westside begins to make A LOT more sense...)

The end game is always another day. (this is the key to picking your battles on a highfreq plan)
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Shafpocalypse Now
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:16 am

You can say there is a benefit in varying your work sets by a small amount each time, up and down, just for varieties sake. Don't do 225x5x5, do 225x5, 230x5, 220x5, 215x5, 230x5....


A gym I used to go at had something like 16 35# plates. Everyone here is shuddering, right, but they were ideal to use for deficit deadlifts, rdls, and SLDLs...and they weren't weights that mattered, you know what I mean?

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powerlifter54
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:24 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:You can say there is a benefit in varying your work sets by a small amount each time, up and down, just for varieties sake. Don't do 225x5x5, do 225x5, 230x5, 220x5, 215x5, 230x5....


A gym I used to go at had something like 16 35# plates. Everyone here is shuddering, right, but they were ideal to use for deficit deadlifts, rdls, and SLDLs...and they weren't weights that mattered, you know what I mean?
Steve Scialpi, a 90s ADFPA/USAPL lifter at 198 and 220 based his sumo deadlift workout on using 35s and doing sets of 8. A gym i trained at had TKO weights and the 45s were between normal 35 and 45 size, and the bar was thicker than normal bar with a cheese grader knurl. Had great workouts and got my DL moving again. i found 3s worked fine. But then i never pulled 800.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

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Holland Oates
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by Holland Oates » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:57 am

I'm a kettle fag but I do the same warm up every session for a few reasons. It addresses my common aches and pains from grappling, I'm a slow starter so it fires up my body and mind for the agony that is GS, my warm up lets me gauge how my body is relaxing as I warm up, and simply because it rituals are important. When I don't follow my rituals I struggle. I will push through a less than optimal situation no matter what but if I do they same things every session and wear the same gear I can free my mind to focus on the competition training lifts.

Rituals are important.
Southern Hospitality Is Aggressive Hospitality

chi
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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by chi » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:31 am

TerryB wrote:sounds like lupus
wrong forum, 600mg/week would cure it though
I'd say on the bottom of that self-actualisation pyramid shit, proper decent coffee is in there with wifi, tits, food and shelter

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Re: Generalised muscle aches

Post by dead man walking » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:05 pm

Holland Oates wrote: if I do they same things every session and wear the same gear I can free my mind to focus on the competition training lifts.

Rituals are important.
i heard that the philosopher immanuel kant walked the same route every day so he could think about his thinking rather than be distracted by thinking about his route.

holland oates's big brain is right on this one.
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