Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

lenny
Corporal
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:13 am

Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by lenny » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:14 am

http://www.8weeksout.com/2016/11/01/why ... 1276237def

Basic contention is that aerobic conditioning brings down inflammation that has been linked to increased risks of heart attack and strokes and says follow the 80/20 rule with 80% of training low intensity and 20% high intensity. Learn to relax (suggests deep breathing but there are a lot more ways than this) to reduce sympathetic nervous system activation and get blood tests in his words "for systemic markers of inflammation, including hs-CRP (high sensitivity C-reactive protein) as well as homocysteine and fibrinogen and the more standard cholesterol markers."

There is debate about cholesterol markers as to what most of the medical community defines as healthy. A medical doctor who is a lipid specialist told my wife that the ratio of HDL to LDL had to be a 4 to 1. I have high cholesterol according to the current definition of most of the medical community but he said my ratio was fine and not to worry about it.

The article is also a plug for his new conditioning training program and his HRV app but I think it's a lot more than that. I'm not a specialist but took a course in physiology and have read about this. I think it should be considered and evaluated depending on age, medical conditions, family history of disease, training goals etc.. I have used his app and don't know how accurate it is but when it showed low training preparedness if I did a high intensity workout I got viruses.

There are a few doctors here. I'd be interested in their evaluation.

User avatar
Dunn
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6664
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:06 pm
Location: Columbus, GA

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Dunn » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:47 am

Coolness. When I cycled, all the best racers always said "base miles pay the bills". I think that ignoring your aerobic base not only robs you of better recovery, it also sets you up to feeling like shit. Crossfit and all the other group fitness shit boxes like to trash clients with intense workouts and always wonder why they get injured. Saw this all the time with the firefighters at the department. Little to no cardio outside of their intense circuit shit and we're always injured or sick.

User avatar
syaigh
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5643
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Surrounded by short irrational people

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by syaigh » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:58 am

The Stephen Seiler article he references is gold. Its really long but is based on decades if research and the performance of high level athletes.
Miss Piggy wrote:Never eat more than you can lift.

User avatar
Cayenne
Top
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:20 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Cayenne » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:31 pm

Syaigh,

I'm going to print out the Jamieson article and read it later. I went to the Jamieson article and did a "Cntrl-F" (i.e., "Find" function) for variations of "Stephen Seller", wanting to print and read that one as well on your recommendation. However, "Stephen Seller" didn't come up...? (Admittedly, not taking the time right now to read Jamieson's piece thoroughly).

Anyway, is this the article you referred to? http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

If not, link please...?

TIA

dead man walking
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6797
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by dead man walking » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:32 pm

is there anything new in the jamieson article?

i only skimmed it, then went and skimmed some maffetone stuff from back when.

building an aerobic foundation is important. who knew?
Really Big Strong Guy: There are a plethora of psychopaths among us.

User avatar
powerlifter54
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7922
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: TX

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by powerlifter54 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:28 pm

Couple years ago was on spring break with the familia in Key West. Went on a snorkeling excursion with a promised beer and margarita happy hour on the way back once dive is over. Boat drops anchor, and we all put on gear and they tell us they to stay between boat and the island and they will blow the horn to come back. So off i go with a pack of swimmers. Suddenly alone. It has been awhile. They blow horn. I see the mast over the slight swell and start swimming back. Wind and tide not helping. But getting there when i check the mast every two minutes or so. Then i look and mast is gone. Heart rate already elevated from swimming goes through roof. Breathing too. Realize i am in a bit of trouble. See another mast and the shore. Decide to go for the new mast. Have to keep breathing under control mentally, and a steady but not aggressive kick count. Get to the boat and am pretty tired. Boat sees me and throws me a line. I climb up and it is my boat. Crew, familia, and other passengers thought i was lost or drowned. Pretty intense. Of course i ask if they were just waiting for me to start drinking.

Moral is as much as i hate doing, discussing, and writing about cardio or conditioning, a level sufficient to support the risks you take in your life is an important element. Those interval sled drags probably saved my life.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21061
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:19 pm

There is a difference between cardiac output training and training to improve oxygen consumption... Vo2max

Cardiac output training can be anything that increases hr for the duration but not blood pressure, you are working on beneficial morphological changes to the heart. Vo2max training hurts, and improves perfirmance

User avatar
syaigh
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5643
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Surrounded by short irrational people

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by syaigh » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:30 pm

Cayenne wrote:Syaigh,

I'm going to print out the Jamieson article and read it later. I went to the Jamieson article and did a "Cntrl-F" (i.e., "Find" function) for variations of "Stephen Seller", wanting to print and read that one as well on your recommendation. However, "Stephen Seller" didn't come up...? (Admittedly, not taking the time right now to read Jamieson's piece thoroughly).

Anyway, is this the article you referred to? http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

If not, link please...?

TIA
Yes thats it. Sorry, i have fat fingers typing disorder.
Miss Piggy wrote:Never eat more than you can lift.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6529
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Sangoma » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:44 am

Seiler's article is brilliant.
Image

User avatar
Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 20483
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Turdacious » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:23 pm

There's also this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 083606.htm
Seems to be along the same lines as JJ's contention. Brain chemistry isn't my field, so I've noticed that I'm sharper in the morning after some aerobic exercise.
Aerobic exercise, such as running, has positive effects on brain structure and function, for example, the generation of neurons (neurogenesis) in the hippocampus, a brain structure important in learning. It has been unclear whether high-intensity interval training (HIT), referring to alternating short bouts of very intense anaerobic exercise with recovery periods, or anaerobic resistance training has similar effects on hippocampal neurogenesis in adulthood.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

tonkadtx
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:20 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by tonkadtx » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:14 am

There is a difference between cardiac output training and training to improve oxygen consumption... Vo2max

Cardiac output training can be anything that increases hr for the duration but not blood pressure, you are working on beneficial morphological changes to the heart. Vo2max training hurts, and improves perfirmance
I'm just curious, Shaf. I'm majoring in Biology at the moment (aiming for PA). Obviously, I understand that cardiac output is the blood volume your heart can pump per minute, and Vo2Max is oxygen volume available. Unfortunately, both these terms have become wrapped up in Bro-science. From what your saying, improving cardiac output could be anything that raises your heart rate to a sufficient level for a sufficient duration, but to improve Vo2Max you have to do high intensity, medium distance? Something like 400 hundreds on a track or 500/1000m repeats on the rower?

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21061
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:39 am

You can separate out health and performance benefits.

This is shit I used to know well, but don't anymore, so forgive me if I get out of my lane too much.

Specificity. When you ask your circulatory system to pump more blood, more efficiently, then you can work specifically on this...improving stroke volume/ejection fraction, improving the elasticity of the arteries and veins etc. However, there has been a saying bandied around for years now, the gist of it is "your heart is a dumb muscle, it can't tell why it's beating faster"...this isn't really true...this is why you can't 'scare yourself' into condition. There is actually quite a bit of interplay between blood ebb and flow, blood pressure, maybe metabolites of energy usage and other stuff. For example, left ventricular hypertrophy is common in lifters, even thought they might average 120-130 bpm over a 60 minute workouts...the blood pressure increases from lifting prevent the stretching of the heart wall to get larger stroke volumes, so that style of training isn't actually improving cardiac output.

This specificity is why YRG/DDP Yoga doesn't "replace all other forms of cardio", although it can improve cardiac output, especially in the sedentary.

Jameson talks about this in his piece referenced above, but also in another piece of his, Roadwork 2.0

http://www.8weeksout.com/2012/02/23/roa ... -comeback/

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6529
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Sangoma » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:47 am

One of good sites for endurance sports physiology: http://sportsscientists.com

Off topic and old, but a nice article: Talent, training and performance: The secrets of success // Genes vs training
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6529
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Sangoma » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:19 am

And another old favourite - by Seiler:

XC Endurance Training Theory - Norwegian Style

Something I wish I knew when I was training GS:
In General, Avoid "Middle of The Chart" Intensities.

This should not be taken too dogmatically. Sometimes the intensity climbs during a steady state workout as a function of the terrain, or getting chased by a dog! And even the top skiers say that sometimes it is a nice variation to pick up the pace just a bit on the long tours. However, the main point is important:

"Train too hard on the easy days, and soon you will be training too easy on the hard days!"

Ok, after reading so far, two questions might be swirling about in your brain:

1. "If interval training is so important, why not do more?"
and
2. "Why not do more of the low intensity distance training at higher intensity, or in other words, what is wrong with the "pretty tough" medium intensity workout?" Whatever happened to "No Pain, No Gain?"

I think answering both requires not only a knowledge of muscle and heart physiology, but an understanding of the "whole athlete". Historically, many people have made the mistake of thinking of training one-dimensionally. By this I mean they only think of training as a means to induce the positive physiological changes that result in better performance. This type of thinking rapidly leads to the "more intensity is better" or, more precisely, "more intervals are better" mentality. In the lab, numerous sport scientists have designed short training studies with untrained subjects and demonstrated that those who train at higher intensity improve more in the short run. I have done it myself, having made rats run hard intervals 5 days a week before! Clearly, intensity is a critical determinant of the training response. BUT, pushing intensity too far, too often leads to big problems when we try to extrapolate to the long term development of the elite endurance athlete.

Training must be thought of "two-dimensionally." The first dimension is training as inducer of positive change. The second dimension is training as a stress that does cellular damage, alters brain chemistry, and disturbs hormone levels, negative consequences all in all. When we realize that the training sword cuts both ways, then the "magic" of ensuring the long term progress of the elite athlete can be understood as an exercise in maximizing the "Benefits to Risk ratio," both from week to week and over the long haul.

The answer to both "why not more interval sessions?" and "why so much low intensity steady state work?" is similar I think. I call it avoiding regression towards the mean. If we try to do hard/interval training (read: high lactate accumulation over many minutes) too frequently, we either break down completely or we end up performing many of the interval sessions at inadequate intensity. It can be either the head or the body that cracks, but the result is the same. If we instead try to turn up the intensity on those "long tour sessions," they become too stressful and too limited by glycogen availability, and we shorten them.

As a related point, one of the best ways to end up overtraining is to have too little variation in training intensity (coined "training monotony" in some nice research on speedskaters and cyclists by Dr. Carl Foster). Athletes can eventually handle high workloads if they successfully avoid letting all the workouts drift towards a middle of the road intensity.
Now, in view of Easy Strength ideas, I wonder if these principles are applicable to weight training as well - low-medium intensity most of the time and peaking to close to the max once every whatever. Faleyev insisted that you should only test your true max during competitions, maybe he is right.
Image

User avatar
powerlifter54
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7922
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: TX

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by powerlifter54 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:57 pm

Sangoma wrote:And another old favourite - by Seiler:

XC Endurance Training Theory - Norwegian Style

Something I wish I knew when I was training GS:
In General, Avoid "Middle of The Chart" Intensities.

This should not be taken too dogmatically. Sometimes the intensity climbs during a steady state workout as a function of the terrain, or getting chased by a dog! And even the top skiers say that sometimes it is a nice variation to pick up the pace just a bit on the long tours. However, the main point is important:

"Train too hard on the easy days, and soon you will be training too easy on the hard days!"

Ok, after reading so far, two questions might be swirling about in your brain:

1. "If interval training is so important, why not do more?"
and
2. "Why not do more of the low intensity distance training at higher intensity, or in other words, what is wrong with the "pretty tough" medium intensity workout?" Whatever happened to "No Pain, No Gain?"

I think answering both requires not only a knowledge of muscle and heart physiology, but an understanding of the "whole athlete". Historically, many people have made the mistake of thinking of training one-dimensionally. By this I mean they only think of training as a means to induce the positive physiological changes that result in better performance. This type of thinking rapidly leads to the "more intensity is better" or, more precisely, "more intervals are better" mentality. In the lab, numerous sport scientists have designed short training studies with untrained subjects and demonstrated that those who train at higher intensity improve more in the short run. I have done it myself, having made rats run hard intervals 5 days a week before! Clearly, intensity is a critical determinant of the training response. BUT, pushing intensity too far, too often leads to big problems when we try to extrapolate to the long term development of the elite endurance athlete.

Training must be thought of "two-dimensionally." The first dimension is training as inducer of positive change. The second dimension is training as a stress that does cellular damage, alters brain chemistry, and disturbs hormone levels, negative consequences all in all. When we realize that the training sword cuts both ways, then the "magic" of ensuring the long term progress of the elite athlete can be understood as an exercise in maximizing the "Benefits to Risk ratio," both from week to week and over the long haul.

The answer to both "why not more interval sessions?" and "why so much low intensity steady state work?" is similar I think. I call it avoiding regression towards the mean. If we try to do hard/interval training (read: high lactate accumulation over many minutes) too frequently, we either break down completely or we end up performing many of the interval sessions at inadequate intensity. It can be either the head or the body that cracks, but the result is the same. If we instead try to turn up the intensity on those "long tour sessions," they become too stressful and too limited by glycogen availability, and we shorten them.

As a related point, one of the best ways to end up overtraining is to have too little variation in training intensity (coined "training monotony" in some nice research on speedskaters and cyclists by Dr. Carl Foster). Athletes can eventually handle high workloads if they successfully avoid letting all the workouts drift towards a middle of the road intensity.
Now, in view of Easy Strength ideas, I wonder if these principles are applicable to weight training as well - low-medium intensity most of the time and peaking to close to the max once every whatever. Faleyev insisted that you should only test your true max during competitions, maybe he is right.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. These principles apply to all training at a high level for real sports. Now this does not include the Douchebags on Reebok or UFC commercials killing themselves running up mountains and training at a fall over and slurp Gatoraide when your done puking levels. Even some @fitters and MMA fighters do infrequent and planned higher intensity training ,but the idea above of the physical, mental, neurological, and hormonal impact is real of high exertion and intensity training, and it needs to carefully survived in training.

Most training is sub maximal for high level athletes. The weekend warrior or soccer mom doesn't have a high enough output capacity either strength or conditioning wise for them to be in the conversation. The next day's DOMS pretty much controls effort and stupid for regular people. But high level and highly trained athletes do not get DOMs any time into their training cycle. Interesting to point out most if not all high level athletes are training for a game or a competition on a certain day or days. Their training is about being as good as they can be at go time. Not about leaving nothing after the WOD.

Please.

You are making deposits in the bank of your training, trading recovery ability for improved performance you are going to harvest when you are in supercompensation in your taper. How many world records do you think lifters, runners, swimmers, or bikers do in training? Almost none unless they are A. young B. stupid C.out of the sight of their coaches. Look at the training Lance Armstrong did. Brutal yes. But he, even doped out of his mind(not there is anything wrong with that) had to slowly and carefully keep expanding his base and extending his potential peak.

So we come to my old favorite, the cycle of Innocence and Experience. But in this case we, mainly older more brittle athletes who may not have a meet or competition in mind, can take from the experience of of the best in the world and use that at our admittedly lower level "innocence" pursuits.

A Get work in
B. Don't Risk Injury needlessly
C. Push it a bit on days you feel great.
D. Don't push it when it is not there.
E. Expect after a C day to have a D Day.
F. Take planned back offs. "Hey, so would week 3 usually be a PR week?" Probably...

Finally all of this is for naught if you don't decide what your goals are and more importantly if and how you are willing to pursue them. Nothing wrong with thinking you might want a certain goal but not willing to do the training it would take. For example i would like to do another meet, probably not 3 lift but maybe push pull or bench only. But i am not, at this time, willing to do what it takes or run the risks involved in meet prep training. Other priorities, maybe just for now, maybe forever.

But until then i keep up the base and try to look good nekkid.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

climber511
Gunny
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by climber511 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:52 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
Sangoma wrote:And another old favourite - by Seiler:

XC Endurance Training Theory - Norwegian Style

Something I wish I knew when I was training GS:
In General, Avoid "Middle of The Chart" Intensities.

This should not be taken too dogmatically. Sometimes the intensity climbs during a steady state workout as a function of the terrain, or getting chased by a dog! And even the top skiers say that sometimes it is a nice variation to pick up the pace just a bit on the long tours. However, the main point is important:

"Train too hard on the easy days, and soon you will be training too easy on the hard days!"

Ok, after reading so far, two questions might be swirling about in your brain:

1. "If interval training is so important, why not do more?"
and
2. "Why not do more of the low intensity distance training at higher intensity, or in other words, what is wrong with the "pretty tough" medium intensity workout?" Whatever happened to "No Pain, No Gain?"

I think answering both requires not only a knowledge of muscle and heart physiology, but an understanding of the "whole athlete". Historically, many people have made the mistake of thinking of training one-dimensionally. By this I mean they only think of training as a means to induce the positive physiological changes that result in better performance. This type of thinking rapidly leads to the "more intensity is better" or, more precisely, "more intervals are better" mentality. In the lab, numerous sport scientists have designed short training studies with untrained subjects and demonstrated that those who train at higher intensity improve more in the short run. I have done it myself, having made rats run hard intervals 5 days a week before! Clearly, intensity is a critical determinant of the training response. BUT, pushing intensity too far, too often leads to big problems when we try to extrapolate to the long term development of the elite endurance athlete.

Training must be thought of "two-dimensionally." The first dimension is training as inducer of positive change. The second dimension is training as a stress that does cellular damage, alters brain chemistry, and disturbs hormone levels, negative consequences all in all. When we realize that the training sword cuts both ways, then the "magic" of ensuring the long term progress of the elite athlete can be understood as an exercise in maximizing the "Benefits to Risk ratio," both from week to week and over the long haul.

The answer to both "why not more interval sessions?" and "why so much low intensity steady state work?" is similar I think. I call it avoiding regression towards the mean. If we try to do hard/interval training (read: high lactate accumulation over many minutes) too frequently, we either break down completely or we end up performing many of the interval sessions at inadequate intensity. It can be either the head or the body that cracks, but the result is the same. If we instead try to turn up the intensity on those "long tour sessions," they become too stressful and too limited by glycogen availability, and we shorten them.

As a related point, one of the best ways to end up overtraining is to have too little variation in training intensity (coined "training monotony" in some nice research on speedskaters and cyclists by Dr. Carl Foster). Athletes can eventually handle high workloads if they successfully avoid letting all the workouts drift towards a middle of the road intensity.
Now, in view of Easy Strength ideas, I wonder if these principles are applicable to weight training as well - low-medium intensity most of the time and peaking to close to the max once every whatever. Faleyev insisted that you should only test your true max during competitions, maybe he is right.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. These principles apply to all training at a high level for real sports. Now this does not include the Douchebags on Reebok or UFC commercials killing themselves running up mountains and training at a fall over and slurp Gatoraide when your done puking levels. Even some @fitters and MMA fighters do infrequent and planned higher intensity training ,but the idea above of the physical, mental, neurological, and hormonal impact is real of high exertion and intensity training, and it needs to carefully survived in training.

Most training is sub maximal for high level athletes. The weekend warrior or soccer mom doesn't have a high enough output capacity either strength or conditioning wise for them to be in the conversation. The next day's DOMS pretty much controls effort and stupid for regular people. But high level and highly trained athletes do not get DOMs any time into their training cycle. Interesting to point out most if not all high level athletes are training for a game or a competition on a certain day or days. Their training is about being as good as they can be at go time. Not about leaving nothing after the WOD.

Please.

You are making deposits in the bank of your training, trading recovery ability for improved performance you are going to harvest when you are in supercompensation in your taper. How many world records do you think lifters, runners, swimmers, or bikers do in training? Almost none unless they are A. young B. stupid C.out of the sight of their coaches. Look at the training Lance Armstrong did. Brutal yes. But he, even doped out of his mind(not there is anything wrong with that) had to slowly and carefully keep expanding his base and extending his potential peak.

So we come to my old favorite, the cycle of Innocence and Experience. But in this case we, mainly older more brittle athletes who may not have a meet or competition in mind, can take from the experience of of the best in the world and use that at our admittedly lower level "innocence" pursuits.

A Get work in
B. Don't Risk Injury needlessly
C. Push it a bit on days you feel great.
D. Don't push it when it is not there.
E. Expect after a C day to have a D Day.
F. Take planned back offs. "Hey, so would week 3 usually be a PR week?" Probably...

Finally all of this is for naught if you don't decide what your goals are and more importantly if and how you are willing to pursue them. Nothing wrong with thinking you might want a certain goal but not willing to do the training it would take. For example i would like to do another meet, probably not 3 lift but maybe push pull or bench only. But i am not, at this time, willing to do what it takes or run the risks involved in meet prep training. Other priorities, maybe just for now, maybe forever.

But until then i keep up the base and try to look good nekkid.
Nice post

Shapecharge
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 8410
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:59 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Shapecharge » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:08 pm

Excellent post and good things to hear/read on a regular basis.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:04 pm

Sangoma wrote: Faleyev insisted that you should only test your true max during competitions, maybe he is right.
This is something the Russians...in all sports, do EXTREMELY WELL. It requires a shift in mindset, massive massive shift. I'm not there...maybe by the time I'm 60
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
WildGorillaMan
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9951
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:01 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by WildGorillaMan » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:12 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Sangoma wrote: Faleyev insisted that you should only test your true max during competitions, maybe he is right.
This is something the Russians...in all sports, do EXTREMELY WELL. It requires a shift in mindset, massive massive shift. I'm not there...maybe by the time I'm 60

Nobody hands out medals for the best workout.
Image
You'll Hurt Your Back

basically I'm Raoul Duke trying to fit into a Philip K. Dick movie remake.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:36 pm

I was thinking of something a little more nuanced, like the way Malanichev hits a 3rd attempt in a meet and it looks like an opener because he's come within 15k of that weight in training multiple times. Or the way Blaine can dunk 1000 pound squats alone in training all the time because he's been there so so many times.

It's the difference in mindset of repeatedly nudging your best work forward as opposed to this big swing cycles of boom and bust then you show up meet day looking for a Hail Mary. (Lilliebridge) Both are legit approaches, it's just that one inspires confidence while the other inspires prayer magical thinking and occasionally incantations.

EDIT:

What I mean to say is...there's an ocean of difference between simply not chasing Gym maxes and relentlessly pursuing and getting proficient at a level of output that is very near your best. This is the consistent difference I have marveled at with the better athletes I've had the honor of getting crushed by. In practice they are able to seemlessly wind it up to 96.9999% of their best...and roll right back off, whereas many of us go form a 4/5th workman like effort to 7/5ths crash and burn with very little comfort zone between the two bookends.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
powerlifter54
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7922
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: TX

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:28 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I was thinking of something a little more nuanced, like the way Malanichev hits a 3rd attempt in a meet and it looks like an opener because he's come within 15k of that weight in training multiple times. Or the way Blaine can dunk 1000 pound squats alone in training all the time because he's been there so so many times.

It's the difference in mindset of repeatedly nudging your best work forward as opposed to this big swing cycles of boom and bust then you show up meet day looking for a Hail Mary. (Lilliebridge) Both are legit approaches, it's just that one inspires confidence while the other inspires prayer magical thinking and occasionally incantations.

EDIT:

What I mean to say is...there's an ocean of difference between simply not chasing Gym maxes and relentlessly pursuing and getting proficient at a level of output that is very near your best. This is the consistent difference I have marveled at with the better athletes I've had the honor of getting crushed by. In practice they are able to seemlessly wind it up to 96.9999% of their best...and roll right back off, whereas many of us go form a 4/5th workman like effort to 7/5ths crash and burn with very little comfort zone between the two bookends.
i never pulled much more than my opener in training in the DL and often not within 50lbs of it. In the squat i might do 3-4 total sets in the whole training cycle above my opener squat. In the bench i did go heavier and often closer to my max (but it is the bench and can handle it better)doing 1-2-3 boards in the shirt, but never attempted a weight i didn't think i could handle. I.E i didn't go till i missed, i got to PR range then did down sets. Really, Really big deal to know the difference between displaying strength and building it. i knew big squat and dls in gear, and in the bench full rom reps in the shirt, got everybody's attention in the gym but wrecked my next 10 days, and i actually got stronger getting my raw work in on my RE day.

PLing is about being the strongest guy on meet day WHO MAKES THE MOST LIFTS. The number of guys who could kick my ass with their training lifts posted on the webz is long. The look on their faces at subtotal was very satisfying. i would often open superlight in the DL just to raise their hopes of catching me. Then jump 70-80lbs just to get in their head. If i could do a second that put them down 100lbs i liked the impact that had. And opening light leaves the third attempt as a real possibility.

And that all happens because you do lots of workmanlike, unpsyched workouts. Paying your dues. Biding your time.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

User avatar
Holland Oates
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:32 am
Location: GAWD'S Country
Contact:

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Holland Oates » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:09 am

powerlifter54 wrote:. . . And that all happens because you do lots of workmanlike, unpsyched workouts. Paying your dues. Biding your time. . . .
This approach has been the best thing I've gotten out my training the past 5 or 6 years.
Southern Hospitality Is Aggressive Hospitality

User avatar
Bobby
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Bobby » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:07 am

Holland Oates wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:. . . And that all happens because you do lots of workmanlike, unpsyched workouts. Paying your dues. Biding your time. . . .
This approach has been the best thing I've gotten out my training the past 5 or 6 years.
But why does it take us so long to understand this?
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

User avatar
WildGorillaMan
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9951
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:01 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by WildGorillaMan » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:27 pm

Bobby wrote:
Holland Oates wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:. . . And that all happens because you do lots of workmanlike, unpsyched workouts. Paying your dues. Biding your time. . . .
This approach has been the best thing I've gotten out my training the past 5 or 6 years.
But why does it take us so long to understand this?
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.
Image
You'll Hurt Your Back

basically I'm Raoul Duke trying to fit into a Philip K. Dick movie remake.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Joel Jamieson article How Conditioning May Save Your Life

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:23 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
PLing is about being the strongest guy on meet day WHO MAKES THE MOST LIFTS. The number of guys who could kick my ass with their training lifts posted on the webz is long. The look on their faces at subtotal was very satisfying. i would often open superlight in the DL just to raise their hopes of catching me. Then jump 70-80lbs just to get in their head. If i could do a second that put them down 100lbs i liked the impact that had. And opening light leaves the third attempt as a real possibility.

And that all happens because you do lots of workmanlike, unpsyched workouts. Paying your dues. Biding your time.
For me and my next cycle, it's going to be all about hitting high percentage lifts in this fashion. Most of my planning for each block is based around consistent benchmarks/metrics like.

Things like raise top belt-less warm squat from 405 to 455.

Then the next block, raise the 8-10 rep maxes (reps work for me, don't judge) and top warm up sets at or near former opener weights. Hitting 585 as top warm up pull etc...

Then the next block, work towards handling 2nd attempt weights to PR weights for doubles and triples. This is all old school stuff but it focuses my attention on measuring towards to goal of handling high percentage lifts in training easily and repeatably.

I think for me, the way to be consistent and focused is to move the chains in these small ways.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

Post Reply