Understanding Recovery

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Beer Jew
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Understanding Recovery

Post by Beer Jew » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:53 am

I'm in the middle of a cycle at the moment (completed 2 out of 3 weeks before a scheduled Deload) and up until now it's been going well; I've been sleeping relatively well, eating dirty but more than enough, and overall recovering pretty well.

The weights have been moving well, form is better than ever, and I'm definitely feeling my strongest overall.

BUT.... As usually happens around now, life will kick in, I'll go 2-3 days with maybe 3-5 hours sleep, work stress goes through the roof, and suddenly you wake up one morning and feel like you've been hit by a truck, and left out in the dessert with no water. Around the same time, I tend to start to put on bad weight very quickly.

The question is, what do you do?

Do you...

(a) Sack it up and get on with the cycle as planned?

(b) Deload early?

(c) Get a night or two of good sleep, and pick up from where you left off, lengthening the cycle a little in the process?

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by syaigh » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:01 am

Id go with c, but also take an honest look at why your work/life gets so hectic and either account for that in future planning or plan your life better so it doesnt happen. That is not meant to sound harsh, its just the truth that athletes with lives have to plan the two together. Ive got a world level lifter who travels for work and so her work schedule is an integral part of her training plan and we use rpe accordingly.
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Beer Jew
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Beer Jew » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:15 am

That sounds really interesting actually - could you lay out (at a very high level) how that works?

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:52 pm

First BJ you need to be extraordinarily disciplined. You need to review at the start and end of each day, week, and cycle your entire calender and apply your real life knowledge of what each stressor is going to do to you. You have to decide if you can mitigate it by better planning, nutrition, or just saying no to some things. This is often not possible. So you just go get some work in at the gym and go home and get some sleep and food. There is no free lunch and i often say that all this planning and periodization stuff, which i love btw, is all for naught if you have a sick child or flu or you get a job promotion or asshole boss or a war breaks out. Been there and done it. Just keep moving, and sometimes it is sideways not forward. And you learn to tweak the system from experience. i learned to deny meetings to people who wasted my time, leave late on sundays and travel late to give me more time at home, train at lunch alone when everybody else was screwing off, take no phone calls sometimes for an hour or two to get a task done, be realistic about what i was going to spend my time in the gym doing, and sometimes skipping social events. Having ability to get work in at home was a huge help. But all of this can be OBE. You just have to do keep slugging, getting in work like we have discussed a lot lately is key. And take the long view. i always thought if you need caffeine, workout drinks, and speed metal to get though your workout you are doing it wrong.
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by syaigh » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:28 pm

Beer Jew wrote:That sounds really interesting actually - could you lay out (at a very high level) how that works?
Not sure what you mean by "high level". Sometimes your training week will be 10 days, not 7. You use RPE instead of percentage because during high stress times with no sleep, sometimes 75% feels more like 95%. But the goal is that you get your work in, at the required intensity on the days that you need to. Sometimes that means finding out of town gyms that accommodate you and scheduling the workouts that are best done there. For example, benching at a crossfit gym is not always easy, but squats and deadlifts are easily done. And pretty much everything Jack said. You can't smash a high intensity, high demand program on top of a high intensity, high demand life and expect them to fluidly merge. Good training takes an attention to ALL the details, including recovery, and fitting them together best you can. Unless you have a competition on the horizon, sticking to a seven day training week doesn't really matter so much.
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Shafpocalypse Now
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:12 pm

A chiro I know who was a pretty solid powerlifter would up his protein by like 50% during times of high stress. He said it worked well for him and the lifters he'd coached. Just one thing that hit me while reading your post.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:43 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:A chiro I know who was a pretty solid powerlifter would up his protein by like 50% during times of high stress. He said it worked well for him and the lifters he'd coached. Just one thing that hit me while reading your post.

Gin Master believed Brisket would address most deficiencies...I used to disagree. I see now I was wrong.
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by WildGorillaMan » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:02 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:A chiro I know who was a pretty solid powerlifter would up his protein by like 50% during times of high stress. He said it worked well for him and the lifters he'd coached. Just one thing that hit me while reading your post.

Gin Master believed Brisket would address most deficiencies...I used to disagree. I see now I was wrong.
This is why I remain unconvinced by the arguments of the You-Don't-Need-So-Much-Protein dietary crowd.
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Boris » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:27 pm

Yes, I'd go w. C, but maybe review the template too.
WildGorillaMan wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:A chiro I know who was a pretty solid powerlifter would up his protein by like 50% during times of high stress. He said it worked well for him and the lifters he'd coached. Just one thing that hit me while reading your post.

Gin Master believed Brisket would address most deficiencies...I used to disagree. I see now I was wrong.
This is why I remain unconvinced by the arguments of the You-Don't-Need-So-Much-Protein dietary crowd.
I used to believe that you didn't need so much and I was wrong. I think I probably f*ed my training up a lot when I was young because of it.

I'm probably still conservative (among the strength crowd) though in how much I think people need on a day to day basis.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Beer Jew » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:34 pm

Thanks Syaigh and PL54 - outstanding info.

The protein thing is interesting... All the biggest, strongest guys ever espouse lots and lots of protein. The "you don't need so much" crowd tend to be people on forums who just don't get enough, but still functionally lift. But then they don't tend to be the biggest, strongest people ever

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Holland Oates » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:59 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:A chiro I know who was a pretty solid powerlifter would up his protein by like 50% during times of high stress. He said it worked well for him and the lifters he'd coached. Just one thing that hit me while reading your post.

Gin Master believed Brisket would address most deficiencies...I used to disagree. I see now I was wrong.
When my work/sleep schedule gets stupid increasing my protein intake helps immensely.
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:33 pm

even shitty brisket will work if you eat over a pound of it

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by dead man walking » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:25 pm

so what's a lot of protein?

something just showed up in my email from outside magazine. the article said 1.6 gram/kg bodyweight is what you need. anything more than 1.8 gram/kg bodyweight is wasted, even if you're a strength guy.

are those numbers good?
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Dunn » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:18 pm

To answer the original question, I tend to just take the long view of things and sack up, understanding that my progress might slow some and that there will inevitably be shitty days. Dialing the intensity back and focusing on increasing my 50-75% range, with occasional brief stents of hyperfocused intense sessions has allowed me to stay at a relatively high level while not completely derailing despite having a schedule that makes yours look like a vacation.

Also, huge bump on the protein increase. If I stay at or above 1.5g/ pound of BW I feel and look much better.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:32 pm

dead man walking wrote:so what's a lot of protein?

something just showed up in my email from outside magazine. the article said 1.6 gram/kg bodyweight is what you need. anything more than 1.8 gram/kg bodyweight is wasted, even if you're a strength guy.

are those numbers good?
A lot is 1-2 grams per pound of LBM. I've seen many many guys swear by that range. However, they all were stinky people with foul smelling sweat. rfeally awful smells are usually an good indication of bad ju ju.

The science is not settled by any means but those numbers do appear to be pretty decent for most of us. Strength guys need more carbs than they think and endurance guys need more protein than they think in general.
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:43 pm

Yeah, start with your bodyweight in grams. If that seems excessive, go to your estimated lean body mass in grams.

Titrate up and down from there.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by powerlifter54 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:55 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
dead man walking wrote: Strength guys need more carbs than they think and endurance guys need more protein than they think in general.
i always found carbs impacted my strength more directly and immediately than protein. My protein ran between 150 and 190 a day. Right in the range between 1.5 g/KG bodyweight and 1 g/lb lean bodyweight. Say what you want, but i never had a shitty BP day after a big bowl of ice cream the night before.
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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:27 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
dead man walking wrote: Strength guys need more carbs than they think and endurance guys need more protein than they think in general.
i always found carbs impacted my strength more directly and immediately than protein. My protein ran between 150 and 190 a day. Right in the range between 1.5 g/KG bodyweight and 1 g/lb lean bodyweight. Say what you want, but i never had a shitty BP day after a big bowl of ice cream the night before.

I think you an i land in a similar place. I didn't think protein was a huge deal until I started getting closer to my recovery limits..now it's gotta be over 150 (i walk around at 231) but little bumps during hard training definitely seem to help. Long term? I'd stay at 1-1.5 g per pound of LBM on training days for sure but I am with Jack on the carbs being the more immediate palpable impact. i tend to eat better on the weekends and now that our heavy days are Sat/Sun, the workout quality has improved I think in some part to getting a full breakfast in 3 hours before lifting.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Boris » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:01 am

Carbs are going to have an immediate impact if you don't get enough - that's for sure.

I grew up with the "high carbs for performance" mantra. It was vitally important when I was training 5 hours a day, but not as much these days when a long day is an hour.

I have always struggled to get more than 150g/day in protein for more than short stretches at a time.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:34 am

For those of you who have not read "Squat Everyday", Perryman has some good reading on recovery.....the book makes a lot of sense and he gives ample credit where due WRT the sources.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:25 pm

Perryman is physically fucked up last I heard

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:18 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Perryman is physically fucked up last I heard
He alludes to that a bit in SED. Basically says he doesn't have the time or desire to spend hours in the gym everyday, ect. Everyone who does any specific sport for a long period of time seems to get physically fucked up regardless of their approach. There are enough replacement parts on various IGx'ers joints to make a makeshift Terminator...myself included.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:39 pm

500 mg/week test and painkillers help you push though at a cost.

Let's get back to the original question.
As usually happens around now, life will kick in, I'll go 2-3 days with maybe 3-5 hours sleep, work stress goes through the roof, and suddenly you wake up one morning and feel like you've been hit by a truck, and left out in the dessert with no water. Around the same time, I tend to start to put on bad weight very quickly.

The question is, what do you do?

Do you...

(a) Sack it up and get on with the cycle as planned?

(b) Deload early?

(c) Get a night or two of good sleep, and pick up from where you left off, lengthening the cycle a little in the process?
1. What is the deal with 2-3 days of 3-5 hours of sleep? Why is this happening? Can you arrange your life so it's avoided? If you cannot, then you will have to take this into account when planning your cycle. This is where rigid periodization plans fall apart, and where a more fluid and adaptable plan shines.

2. Work stress: You gotta work, what about using something like phenibut to chill the fuck out a couple of nights a week, if it works for you. Alternately, some sort of meditation or mindfulness regimen might provide greater resiliency.

3. Bad Weight: The only advice I have here is that it's hard as hell to clean up the diet when you are stressed and falling apart, focusing on much larger portions of plant matter might help, as does avoid situations where you will overeat/overdrink stuff that adds bad weight to you.

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by dead man walking » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:48 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
dead man walking wrote: Strength guys need more carbs than they think and endurance guys need more protein than they think in general.
i always found carbs impacted my strength more directly and immediately than protein. My protein ran between 150 and 190 a day. Right in the range between 1.5 g/KG bodyweight and 1 g/lb lean bodyweight. Say what you want, but i never had a shitty BP day after a big bowl of ice cream the night before.

I think you an i land in a similar place. I didn't think protein was a huge deal until I started getting closer to my recovery limits..now it's gotta be over 150 (i walk around at 231) but little bumps during hard training definitely seem to help. Long term? I'd stay at 1-1.5 g per pound of LBM on training days for sure but I am with Jack on the carbs being the more immediate palpable impact. i tend to eat better on the weekends and now that our heavy days are Sat/Sun, the workout quality has improved I think in some part to getting a full breakfast in 3 hours before lifting.
you need cricket protein

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Re: Understanding Recovery

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:14 pm

Ive considered it.....
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