How to train yourself

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Blaidd Drwg
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:50 am

JimZipCode wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:OTOH most people don't do enough volume.
Ugh, "volume".

Sorry kiddos. That's science not giving a shit about your feels.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 73480/full

Decent and fairly evenhanded nuanced explanation of same

http://www.strongerbyscience.com/non-responders/

Whether you think you are a special snowflake or not, the answer almost never leads one down the road of "get more results by doing less",....it's maximize the amount of recovery capacity to do more .....by doing more.

Hard gainers and the gender wage gap belong together..... in the myths we cling to because of that one time things were really hard.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:13 pm

I agree with BD. Volume is the only thing that's ever given me results in any sport or physical endeavor.
Rode my best when my training was 300+ miles per week of mostly steady state at the higher end of zone 2/3. Intervals to sharpen up.
Got my best lifting results from bunches of sets of 3-8 reps above 75% 1RM.
The only time I've ever gotten a free standing handstand from Crow was by practicing that shit ery day.
I think that's where Chadington Bear has it dialed with his people. Volume all over the place until it's time to run a peaking block and get ready to move heavy shit.

Comes down to getting so adapted at a constant medium-hard effort that dialing it up to a previous max effort isn't that far above norm.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by JimZipCode » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:20 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Decent and fairly evenhanded nuanced explanation of same
http://www.strongerbyscience.com/non-responders/.
Great read.

There's this gem in the comments:
Greg Nuckols wrote:In studies on older people (higher baseline levels of inflammation), NSAIDs tend to actually increase rates of hypertrophy, whereas they blunt hypertrophy in younger people
In response to a question about people who might need to manage the inflammation response.

In another comment he clarifies that "older" = 60+. I don't think he links the actual studies. Still, useful to have in the back of your mind. I've avoided Ibuprofin these past few months, even when I've wanted some, for fear of inhibiting the training effect. Maybe I won't worry about that quite as much.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Bram » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:46 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
JimZipCode wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:OTOH most people don't do enough volume.
Ugh, "volume".

Sorry kiddos. That's science not giving a shit about your feels.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 73480/full

Decent and fairly evenhanded nuanced explanation of same

http://www.strongerbyscience.com/non-responders/

Whether you think you are a special snowflake or not, the answer almost never leads one down the road of "get more results by doing less",....it's maximize the amount of recovery capacity to do more .....by doing more.


Hard gainers and the gender wage gap belong together..... in the myths we cling to because of that one time things were really hard.
Your article doesn't resonate with your assertions, specifically parts 2 and 4:
Greg Nuckols wrote:
2. Assuming you’ve already tried increasing training volume (which should be your first thought, since higher training volumes generally mean more muscle growth) instead try decreasing your training volume for a while to maybe ~4-5 sets per muscle per week. Since non-responders have a magnified inflammatory response to training (which may be one of the major factors inhibiting hypertrophy), decreasing the intensity of the stressor may put it back into a beneficial, hormetic range.

4. Try something new. As mentioned in the last article, a couple of papers (one, two) show that certain styles of training produce great results for some people but not others. If your muscles haven’t grown from heavy sets of 5 with long rest periods, they may instead grow from lighter sets of 20 with short rest periods, or from explosive training with low reps and no grinders. An approach to training that produces great results for the majority of people may not be what your body responds to.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:16 pm

You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.

Bram, please recognize there is nuance to any argument the facts remain that the science supports more volume for more results across the board, simply that MORE is a relative term. The fact someone is a pissant non hacker constrained by shitty inflammatory response mechanisms does not imply they need less, only that they might not tolerate as much more.

If you suck, you'll always suck, but just because you can't tolerate as much as someone who doesn't suck does not mean that less is more than more.

The fact that volume is a relative term over time should not be a difficult one.

For fuxsake , everyone here talking about training is dealing with managing change over time within the context of where you are relative to where you have been. How is this confusing?
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Testiclaw » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:10 pm

I know, in my soul, that volume isn't the answer.

/runs away
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by newguy » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:45 pm

terra wrote:My thoughts on "Hardgainer-ness" are a little different (this may seem complicated but I think it simplifies the situation, a lot...).

The modern world kind of hijacks our natural defense mechanisms. Our natural mechanisms are confused by many seemingly innocuous aspects of the world we live in and by 'modern stress'. We haven't evolved a healthy response for this situation.

Our multi-tiered defense mechanisms (also known by misleading terms such as The Stress Response, Fight-Flight etc) involve and influence EVERY system and process in our body-mind. Everyone's system is quietly playing the "is there a tiger in the room or not" to a certain extent, in one way or another.

I hear where you are coming from, but really, at what point in human history did we not have the exact same stress as we have now? I don't care if we are talking cave man days, or the dawn of civilization, people have always had to deal with shit constantly. And I am not talking about hunt the tiger kind of stuff. I am talking about being out hunting woolly mammoths and stressing that your girl is banging Trangnock at the camp because he stayed behind with a hurt ankle. And being on the hunt and fuming because Chief Bo'ga'ltor picked Renku to be lead spear even though you know you should have been lead spear and the only reason Renku got picked is because he is a scummy little but kisser and now you won't get the bigger cut and your girl is going to have even more reason to bang Trangnock.

But damn. Renku really does have the spear shit down. He's fast and pretty damn accurate. Maybe this whole "only throw the spear twice a week" thing you've been doing isn't working?

Humans are human. Nothing ever changes.

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Bram » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:47 pm

Bruh, your author says that some people should try lowering their volume FOR STRENGTH TRAINING when moderate to high volume isn't working.

That argues against all training volumes (cardio, strength, etc) being equal. Seeing as how more cardio leads directly to more adaptation.

And it's an argument for an individually tailored response WHEN adaptation ain't occurring. More volume? Less volume? Depends.

Not sure why this is confusing either.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by dkay » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:50 pm

Fucking Trangnock - always with the sprained ankle, and now every kid in the village looks like that fucker. Next time, I'm voting Gork.

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Beer Jew » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:55 pm

Bram wrote:Bruh, your author says that some people should try lowering their volume FOR STRENGTH TRAINING when moderate to high volume isn't working.

That argues against all training volumes (cardio, strength, etc) being equal. Seeing as how more cardio leads directly to more adaptation.

And it's an argument for an individually tailored response WHEN adaptation ain't occurring. More volume? Less volume? Depends.

Not sure why this is confusing either.
Increased volume over time, for drug free trainees especially is the biggest driver of adaptation.

Since you can't linearly increase volume forever, sometimes you need to drop back to push forward again.

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Bram » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:40 pm

I buy that.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:32 pm

Bram wrote:Bruh, your author says that some people should try lowering their volume FOR STRENGTH TRAINING when moderate to high volume isn't working.

That argues against all training volumes (cardio, strength, etc) being equal. Seeing as how more cardio leads directly to more adaptation.

And it's an argument for an individually tailored response WHEN adaptation ain't occurring. More volume? Less volume? Depends.

Not sure why this is confusing either.
God damn. You can not tell me after reading BJs post you don't get it??

You're just so very bad at reading nuance, understanding "on the one hand, on the other hand discussions" and extrapolating general patterns from specific conclusions. You've been practically gifted an undergrad in S&C from this place and yet.., this is what you come up with?

No. Just no.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Sangoma » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:13 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
JimZipCode wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:OTOH most people don't do enough volume.
Ugh, "volume".

Sorry kiddos. That's science not giving a shit about your feels.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 73480/full

Decent and fairly evenhanded nuanced explanation of same

http://www.strongerbyscience.com/non-responders/

Whether you think you are a special snowflake or not, the answer almost never leads one down the road of "get more results by doing less",....it's maximize the amount of recovery capacity to do more .....by doing more.

Hard gainers and the gender wage gap belong together..... in the myths we cling to because of that one time things were really hard.
The study quoted above is about endurance training. You reckon the same applies to all training goals, such as strength and hypertrophy?
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Beer Jew » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:23 am

Smet- you just posted in the other thread that you lost 6kg of muscle or a routine of 8-10 reps 3x weekly.

Serious question - are you progressively increasing the volume at the same weights, or steadily increasing the weight you're using over time?

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:43 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
JimZipCode wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:OTOH most people don't do enough volume.
Ugh, "volume".

Sorry kiddos. That's science not giving a shit about your feels.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 73480/full

Decent and fairly evenhanded nuanced explanation of same

http://www.strongerbyscience.com/non-responders/

Whether you think you are a special snowflake or not, the answer almost never leads one down the road of "get more results by doing less",....it's maximize the amount of recovery capacity to do more .....by doing more.

Hard gainers and the gender wage gap belong together..... in the myths we cling to because of that one time things were really hard.
The study quoted above is about endurance training. You reckon the same applies to all training goals, such as strength and hypertrophy?
I do because it's ibservably true.

Lemme clarify some bullet points.
Subject declares themselves a hardgainer, makes little or progress
First Issue: how's nutrition, make them record diet. Turns out they eat barely at maintenance...(wants to not Lose abs).
Second issue;..what's recovery like? ."life is too stressful, recovery is poor" turns out they stay up until all hours playing Xbox.
Third question: how's technique and exercise selection? Turns out technique is shite, they can't execute basic bb movements effectively enough to progress, they have a technique limitation, not a muscular one.

I've seen this exact scenario dozens and dozens of times in both cycling and strength training.

Now once you correct for these (you've made all things equal) you have two distinct possibilities left.
One, they have a very low tolerance for discomfort. This is very real and not uncommon. They have no barometer for understanding the correct amount of effort. This cuts both ways as you saw in th Nuckils write up, some people just push right past their recovery capabilities. So what we see here is someone who appears to need less volume to progress... which is possible but the more likely observable truth is that they are just an idiot with a poor sense of regulating discomfort.

The second possibility is simply they are weak for another reason, age, overall health, sedentary childhood... they are non hackers because they have so much further to go. I've never seen a hardgainer who had played other sports or was active outside of the gym.

These are patterns I've observed. As to the difference between endurance and strength, I see no physiological reason why they should be different. We're trying to get past first tier adaptations (motor learning) and start developIng changed to the physiology, bone density, golgi tendon disinhibition, increased RFD.. or otoh, changed in enzymatic activity supporting aerobic metabolism, cardiac hypertrophy, etc... the speed at which second tier adaptations CAN take place is alarmingly similar whether we are talking about the aerobic system or the Phos/creatine energy system and the rate at which muscle fibers can adapt (outside of short term changes to mitochondrial density from glycolysis efforts) is about the same. Obviously there's a major difference in how long it takes to put on 20 pounds of lean muscle or to develop very high level endurance but the fact it's a 5 year MINIMUM proposition for most people is probably not coincidence.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Beer Jew » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:39 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote: Subject declares themselves a hardgainer, makes little or progress
First Issue: how's nutrition, make them record diet. Turns out they eat barely at maintenance...(wants to not Lose abs).
Second issue;..what's recovery like? ."life is too stressful, recovery is poor" turns out they stay up until all hours playing Xbox.
Third question: how's technique and exercise selection? Turns out technique is shite, they can't execute basic bb movements effectively enough to progress, they have a technique limitation, not a muscular one.
Nice to see myself being used as a case study!

I think the benefit in having a coach, at least for a limited period of time, is to gain a holistic view of how it feels to "work hard". Once you have that baseline, then regardless of what programme/methodology etc. you use in the future, you know whether you're putting in the work or not. You can just feel it.

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Bram » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:11 pm

BD, it's ok. You can admit you're wrong. I won't be upset.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Sangoma » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:27 pm

Beer Jew wrote:Smet- you just posted in the other thread that you lost 6kg of muscle or a routine of 8-10 reps 3x weekly.

Serious question - are you progressively increasing the volume at the same weights, or steadily increasing the weight you're using over time?
Mostly volume. Weight loss was the result of reduced intake though, and not much to do with the style of lifting. If that's what you are interested in.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Sangoma » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:18 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
JimZipCode wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:OTOH most people don't do enough volume.
Ugh, "volume".

Sorry kiddos. That's science not giving a shit about your feels.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 73480/full

Decent and fairly evenhanded nuanced explanation of same

http://www.strongerbyscience.com/non-responders/

Whether you think you are a special snowflake or not, the answer almost never leads one down the road of "get more results by doing less",....it's maximize the amount of recovery capacity to do more .....by doing more.

Hard gainers and the gender wage gap belong together..... in the myths we cling to because of that one time things were really hard.
The study quoted above is about endurance training. You reckon the same applies to all training goals, such as strength and hypertrophy?
I do because it's ibservably true.

Lemme clarify some bullet points.
Subject declares themselves a hardgainer, makes little or progress
First Issue: how's nutrition, make them record diet. Turns out they eat barely at maintenance...(wants to not Lose abs).
I think this is a very valid point. The trainee is doing high volume and barely eating to stay alive. Then he drastically cuts volume and voila, he starts getting some results. Hence hardgainer routine, training a muscle group once a week. Whereas increasing intake would do the trick in the first place.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Boris » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:40 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.

Bram, please recognize there is nuance to any argument the facts remain that the science supports more volume for more results across the board, simply that MORE is a relative term. The fact someone is a pissant non hacker constrained by shitty inflammatory response mechanisms does not imply they need less, only that they might not tolerate as much more.

If you suck, you'll always suck, but just because you can't tolerate as much as someone who doesn't suck does not mean that less is more than more.

The fact that volume is a relative term over time should not be a difficult one.

For fuxsake , everyone here talking about training is dealing with managing change over time within the context of where you are relative to where you have been. How is this confusing?
This is relevant, I think: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/2012/06/time-on-task.html

Sometimes less is just less.

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by terra » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:44 am

newguy wrote: I hear where you are coming from, but really, at what point in human history did we not have the exact same stress as we have now? I don't care if we are talking cave man days, or the dawn of civilization, people have always had to deal with shit constantly. And I am not talking about hunt the tiger kind of stuff. I am talking about being out hunting woolly mammoths and stressing that your girl is banging Trangnock at the camp because he stayed behind with a hurt ankle. And being on the hunt and fuming because Chief Bo'ga'ltor picked Renku to be lead spear even though you know you should have been lead spear and the only reason Renku got picked is because he is a scummy little but kisser and now you won't get the bigger cut and your girl is going to have even more reason to bang Trangnock.

But damn. Renku really does have the spear shit down. He's fast and pretty damn accurate. Maybe this whole "only throw the spear twice a week" thing you've been doing isn't working?

Humans are human. Nothing ever changes.

A lot has changed, but the problem is the difference in rates of change.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:27 am

Bram,

Here's the thing. You don't even have the self awareness to be embarrassed and we can't make you understand ideas that require a basic working experience or at least a working lexicon. Perhaps when you've produced a single athlete in the bodybuilding/powerlifting/weightlifting arena that's done anything remotely of note, We'll all be forced to revise the consensus opinion that youre anything but a fucking moron. You go right ahead worrying about exceptions (rare) to the generally accepted best practice and science. I'll keep developing drug free athletes with average genetics. You go ahead and keep reading and extruding men's fitness advice.

For anyone else confused on this horseshit, go read Mike Israetels notion of Maximum Recoverable Volume.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=baJ7PAEi6Jw
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:28 am

Boris wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.

Bram, please recognize there is nuance to any argument the facts remain that the science supports more volume for more results across the board, simply that MORE is a relative term. The fact someone is a pissant non hacker constrained by shitty inflammatory response mechanisms does not imply they need less, only that they might not tolerate as much more.

If you suck, you'll always suck, but just because you can't tolerate as much as someone who doesn't suck does not mean that less is more than more.

The fact that volume is a relative term over time should not be a difficult one.

For fuxsake , everyone here talking about training is dealing with managing change over time within the context of where you are relative to where you have been. How is this confusing?
This is relevant, I think: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/2012/06/time-on-task.html

Sometimes less is just less.
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Re: How to train yourself

Post by newguy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:26 am

"More" is a concept that can flip people up because generally and usually what you need to is more. But that more may be more volume....but it might be less volume and more intensity. Then again it might be overall less volume and less intensity, but more frequency.

Then again, sometimes what you need to do at the moment is less. Maybe you need less intensity. But you balance that with more volume. Or maybe you need less volume and frequency, but you up the intensity a bit. Or you take a back off and cut the volume, intensity, and frequency to recover from a harder block of training.

But regardless, overtime you need to train the body to do more of everything. That is how you adapt. By becoming able to do more. More volume. More intensity. More frequency.

It makes no sense to think you can cause any real structural change by, overtime, becoming capable of doing less than what you are currently capable of.

The elite, who succeed at doing less, are illusion-al outliers.

At some point, you become capable of creating a level of effort that outstrips your recovery ability to such an extent that you simply cannot improve by doing more. You improve by doing less, but better.

However, that less is significantly more than what they were able to do before, (and more than what most of us will ever come close to achieving) and it only came about by significant increases of everything (volume, intensity, frequency) over time.

But that whole comparison is lame because most of us do not have the genetics, the coaching, the everything, to have to worry about reaching that level.
Last edited by newguy on Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to train yourself

Post by Bram » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:27 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Bram,

Here's the thing. You don't even have the self awareness to be embarrassed and we can't make you understand ideas that require a basic working experience or at least a working lexicon. Perhaps when you've produced a single athlete in the bodybuilding/powerlifting/weightlifting arena that's done anything remotely of note, We'll all be forced to revise the consensus opinion that youre anything but a fucking moron. You go right ahead worrying about exceptions (rare) to the generally accepted best practice and science. I'll keep developing drug free athletes with average genetics. You go ahead and keep reading and extruding men's fitness advice.

For anyone else confused on this horseshit, go read Mike Israetels notion of Maximum Recoverable Volume.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=baJ7PAEi6Jw
35:39-36:24 of your video....I'm paraphrasing....athletes recover differently, due to both exogenous hormones and genetic factors we don't understand, this wears away at the assumption that we can train all athletes the same...

Holy shit, what a surprise. Drugs and genetics plays a role in how well people tolerate volume.

Lol. You keep posting good videos and links and work on being less of a cunt, everyone will be better off.
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