Training spk for rlz

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

Post Reply
User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3280
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Training spk for rlz

Post by Beer Jew » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:23 pm

There seems to be a dearth of shite being posted on the Training Forum lately. So let's cleanse. (These are all taken from the same thread, with the first and then each second response being posted by one of the strongest raw, drug-free lifters I'm aware of (815kg total @ 98kg).
Train 5x a week (currently):

Session1: all weeks [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Squat
Session2: all weeks [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Bench
Session3: all weeks [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Deadlift

Session4: Week1 [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Bench
Week2 [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Bench
Week3 [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Bench
Week4 (1x Target Goal) Bench

Session5: Week1 [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Squat
Week2 [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Squat
Week3 [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Squat
Week4 (1x Target Goal) Squat

In summary, sessions 1,2, and 3 stay the same for the full month, and will seem pretty heavy at the start, by week four they will be pretty fast easy(ier) reps.
They are designed at 80% as this is where you are recruiting all fibres (at full throttle, you won't recruit more, you'll just spend longer under load and overtrain or have form breakdown).

sessions 4 and 5 are periodized using the heavier percentages of prilepins studies but with the lower rep ranges to keep tonnage under check. I always make the target goal the smallest increment, ie 2.5 Kg.

Done this since Xmas and setting pb's after hitting plateau's. I don't do any accessory work, only some prehab (external rotator cuff work and some glute bridges).

With the deloads it works out 15-20Kg gains per lift per year. Slow and steady (I was stuck doing peaking cycles where I was finding it harder to beat my previous lifts every 12 weeks, I found myself having to really push to beat my last peak, but with this I've beat all my lifts pretty easy).
How do you progress your deadlift, or do you just do 80% 6x2 once a week?
That^^

But by the end of the 4th week, it will be much faster and an easier lift....
So I just increment 2.5kg on the next cycle. When I deadlift heavier I didn't gain, and when I did more volume it just messed me up, which stopped me gaining.

However, if you are lucky enough to be able to cope with alot of deadlifting, you could do 4 weeks of the 8x2, then 4 weeks following the prilepins day...

Or, if your turbo hardcore and really can hack it, you could train 6x a week and have a 3rd prilepin day for deads....

ps. You can do prilepin day and target day of bench/squat and vice versa, so you can condense it into a 3x a week program, even though its 5 sessions. Either works well, but training gives a transient spike in testosterone...so a shorter session more often can yield better results (speaking from a drug free perspective).
I'm thinking of giving your system a go, as it seems similar to the Russian routine which I've had good success with before.
I have a question, though: do you feel there is enough heavy work with only one session over 80%, and that only being 90% for 5x2 every 4 weeks?
I'm glad you fancy giving it a go...
To answer your question, yes; with a bit(lots) of bro-science to back it up:

First, what people don't realize is muscles/myocytes contract as fast as they physically can, regardless of its type (I,IIA,IIB). However... people think a slow movement (like casually standing up out of a chair) is a slow contraction...
It's not, its just that very very few myocytes are contracting at that very instance in time.

So, why 80%???....
80% is just about the mark where you are contracting as many fibres as you physically can. Lifting heavier won't recruit more fibres, it will simply slow the lift down and put you under load for longer, making it easier to injure or overtrain (not homo tiredness, but accumulative micro damage to connective tissue).

However.... we need some sort of overreaching to induce new gains...
This is why we use 80% of our target and not our current, so that the first week will hit us into mild overreach, and by the 4th week, it won't contribute to overtraining as it isn't more than 80% of our 1rm, it should be bang on 80% of our new max.

Ideally we would do [email protected]% all the time, but efficiency would increase. We do NOT want to be efficient, as it is mutually exclusive to proficiency. I want to be able to produce as much kinetic energy at any instance in time... not do the same squat with less energy for more reps. To stop this happening, we wave the reps/sets/weight with the prelepins day, and it cycles from week 1 (sarcoplasmic/volume) work to week 4 (myofibril/intensity) type work, using values from 100's of studies by A.S Prilepin on drug-free/non-drug free, trained/untrained individuals. The ranges were optimal for all, it was the frequency that could be adjusted for non-drug free and advanced lifters.
I really like the look of this and I like your explanation too.

So, to confirm my understanding would a typical Monday look something like this for someone with a current squat of 200kg:


20kg x 8
20kg x 5
60kg x 3
100kg x 1
140kg x 1

162.5kg x 2
162.5kg x 2
162.5kg x 2
162.5kg x 2
162.5kg x 2
162.5kg x 2

Do you do any assistance stuff or would that be the session?
Bingo mate. I don't do any assistance unless there is a dire need. I do some external rotator cuff work now and then to stop me looking like an ape, but assistance in my opinion (other than injury prevention) must be a variant of the lift for it to carry over. That said, if there is a muscle that is lacking on the lift, this muscle will usually have to work the hardest, which will negate the need to do assistance on it, but will likely contribute to fatigue faster and so will require more deloads if it's severely weaker, so may need conditioning for 3-4 weeks prior to linear compound work.

I recommend assistance for prehab/rehab only. For what it's worth, my bench is my best lift, and I've never done a fly or skullcrusher in my life.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:15 pm

Little confused by the first quote.

is this correct?

Monday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Squat
Tuesday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Bench
Wed: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Deadlift
Thurs: [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Bench
Friday: [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Squat
Monday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Squat
Tuesday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Bench
Wed: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Deadlift
Thursday:[email protected]% (of current 1RM) Bench
Friday [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Squat
Monday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Squat
Tuesday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Bench
Wed: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Deadlift
Thursday:[email protected]% (of current 1RM) Bench
Friday: [email protected]% (of current 1RM) Squat
Monday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Squat
Tuesday: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Bench
Wed: [email protected]% (of target 1RM) Deadlift
Thursday: (1x Target Goal) Bench
Friday: (1x Target Goal) Squat
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3280
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Beer Jew » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:34 pm

Yes, although it doesn't necessarily need to be set up that way. He talks about amalgamating to 3 x per week etc.

For reference, this is the same guy who posted that bench stuff.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:57 pm

Beer Jew wrote:Yes, although it doesn't necessarily need to be set up that way. He talks about amalgamating to 3 x per week etc.

For reference, this is the same guy who posted that bench stuff.

I grok. The pattern makes sense. I would bet without drugs lower frequency will not be as effective. I think the blunt force of hi frequency is what does the trick. that said...it's not crazy for a lot of folks to train this way. Personally I really like have hi freq, moderately heavy skill session (Bench Only) interspersed with infrequent hypertrophy session...I know that's not what he does but the pattern at least is familiar to me.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3280
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Beer Jew » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:41 pm

This was a fairly early post from him. I'll post some of his more recent stuff later.

User avatar
Bobby
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Bobby » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:54 pm

Yo,Bear Jew:go for a run,row,bicycle or ruck.Better for your shoulders in the long run!
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:59 pm

Bobby wrote:Yo,Bear Jew:go for a run,row,bicycle or ruck.Better for your shoulders in the long run!

Why not both?
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Bobby
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Bobby » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:24 am

Yes,why not both? But BJ seems more interested in lying on his back in a cozy gym.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3280
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Beer Jew » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:06 am

Bobby, life is too short to waste it doing anything that sounds as ridiculous as "rucking".

User avatar
Freki
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2804
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:51 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Freki » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:10 am

Beer Jew wrote:Bobby, life is too short to waste it doing anything that sounds as ridiculous as "rucking".
Well no fucking for you.
"The reason that 'guru' is such a popular word is because 'charlatan' is so hard to spell."
@GSElevator: Can we please stop calling them hipsters and go back to calling them pussies?
Blood eagles solve everything.

User avatar
Bobby
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Bobby » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:05 pm

Beer Jew wrote:Bobby, life is too short to waste it doing anything that sounds as ridiculous as "rucking".
Or fucking up your shoulders with benching!
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

User avatar
Bobby
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Bobby » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:06 pm

You can use the british terms tabbing or yomping as well BJ,only the gringos that say rucking.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:32 pm

Bobby wrote:You can use the british terms tabbing or yomping as well BJ,only the gringos that say rucking.

If you're a civilian and you call walking around with a heavy pack "Tactical Advance to Battle"....you're probably a douche bag.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3280
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Beer Jew » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Component Based Periodisation
So a little insight to how it came about....
I Can touch and go 200-220kg bench most sessions, but constantly failed a 200kg paused at competitions, and had trained pausing lots in sessions, but could never hit 200 paused or in comp. Due to a simultaneous move in job and house (was military) I had to train in my parents garage which wouldn't even fit a mini cooper!.
I had no bench, just a squat rack. The catch bars of the squat rack were far too high to bench with, but I had to anyway. All my benching was done from 6 inch above the chest (which is where I am really strong from already).

Had to train like this from December to the end of March, without touching a normal bench. Went to comp, opened with a very hesitant 180...EASY. 2nd lift 190...EASY. 3rd lift...200...EASY.
How was this so? I didn't train a weakness, I didn't lift any heavier? Was it beginner gains from a new exercise? Maybe...but I also knew that for every kg gained from beginner gains, I'd lose one from skill fade. What was it!??

START STRENGTH.

This may hard to grasp, but hear me out... start strength is NOT the start of a lift. It is turning ON as many muscle cells on at once. I remember a debate on the forums where 'LessThanLuke' was saying rack pulls increase the deadlift from the floor...and everyone was disagreeing (and sadly, so was I...sorry mate!). He was right!
Rack pulls is simply turning the muscle on. It is start strength. Obviously the bias to what muscles are turned on are changed by mechanics (so a lockout on bench from near the top would be starting strength of the triceps, and lockouts from the bottom would be start strength of the chest. No longer did I care for positional strength, but how to truly become powerful in any movement...by learning to simply turn on more muscle in an instance (sounds pretty obvious reading back....).

So what does this mean? It means that pin presses from near lockout, will actually improve the opposite trait more than the one you think you are working.
It also means that.... paused squats, paused bench etc are NOT start strength!
Why!??? It is because the muscle is already turned on...THIS is why my paused bench NEVER improved. Paused bench did not, and will not improve my start strength. My paused bench is now stronger than my touch and go!

I applied this to all my lifts, and made some crazy improvements, but I found that I was turning the muscle on, and my starting strength of all my lifts rocketed, but my new weakness was lockout despite it being the best its ever been!

So, now I was left with learning how to keep the start strength muscle cells 'ON' and further recruit more, as I knew that rack pressing from lockout was not the way to improve my lockout.... enter COMPENSATORY ACCELERATION TRAINING (explosive work)...

So, CAT training will improve lockout.

For those not in the know, CAT training is accelerating a weight to overcome the zero acceleration curve of a lift. You may not know it, but every time you lift light unless done explosively, you are detraining your lockout and explosive strength due to the fly wheel effect and using the conservation of momentum.

The easiest way and guaranteed way to improve explosive strength is with bands. Bands require that following start strength, you must keep the muscle 'ON' and further and progressively keep recruiting more fibres.

Also, I need to express something I hear all the time...
'banging' off the chest is NOT explosive. If somebody says.. "bro! you are really explosive off the chest but then it slows down bla bla"... this is WRONG.
You can be explosive and still be relatively slow... explosive is the ACCELERATION. If the weight slows down half way, then it has stopped accelerating, and you are not explosive. You probably have great start strength.

Another thing I need to clear up, SPEED work is NOT explosive work. I'm still on the fence with the use of speed work in powerlifting, but CAT work is king. Speed work can contribute to a lack of explosiveness... if a bar leaves the chest fast then the effort required to keep it moving is less and less.
With bands, you can train to be explosive while lifting MAXIMAL weights. This can be against the grain to what most read, but to be explosive, is a skill of progressively recruiting more fibres at a fast/progressive rate.
May I also add, that skilled lifters can lift explosively or in a progressive/accelerative manner without bands (Tom Martin squat is a perfect example. I don't know if it is a conscious effort, or a trait of a natural athlete. Also Andy Boltons deadlift also has great acceleration curve).

So, we now have the two main components of strength: Start strength and Explosive strength (and ultimately Limit strength)......
and Component Based Periodization is born.

So, I will overview here why the micro/macro/meso is constructed how it is:

Easiest way for me to do this, is interrogate myself:

So, why 3 week phases?

Basically, 3 weeks have been shown time and time again to show great improvement, with stagnation quickly following if the same exercises and similar loading are used, and ultimately injury following further effort of replication.
Second to this, it takes OVER 3 weeks to lose an attribute (except endurance, this can be lost in 10 or so days). But strength/power can be maintained much longer. This means that we can come back to a phase without any skill fade (any a phenomenon to which I have no answer for, is actually coming back to an explosive phase from a start phase, you are MUCH greater at it than the previous visit).

Why are start and explosive phases separate?

Simple. Explosive strength is very fatiguing on the CNS, whereas start strength is very biomechanically draining on the joints, muscle and connective tissue due to resisting inertia. So, in one phase the CNS is pushed hard and the musculoskeletal is maintained, and vice versa. This gives the ability to push very hard every session and allows for a constant string of pb's to be had (I pb every week since following this, and used to pb once every 3-4 month!...even reading this back to myself sounds outrageous).

What about the accessory stuff?

Don't over worry. But, I tend to focus on a bit of isolation/hypertrophy in conventional reps (7-12 really) on weak muscles, problematic muscles or imbalances while in the START STRENGTH phase (keeping in theme with the musculoskeletal stress).
Once in the explosive phase, the accessory becomes more specific, using lower reps, heavy loading and compound type movement.

But AMH_Power, you advocate super specificity!

Correct, and I still do. Component based periodization IS specific, in fact, it is ultra specific. It is the building blocks of strength. Fred Hatfield utilized components and was the first man to squat over 1000lbs, and did so at only 255lbs and at an age of 45! He coined the start strength, explosive strength (and amortization) 'check mark' training, making the graph curve more like a tick/check mark.

So why do the main days have different efforts?

Time and time again, weeks or days of undulating intensity has shown to beat flat or slowly progressive ones in ALL levels of athletes. The meso follows:

Hard / V.Hard / Hard / V.Hard / Medium(rolling deload)/ Max

This caters for individuals tolerances also. I find that after a hard exertion, the following week I am battered, and my hard days will be considerably easier than my v.hard days. Beginners, will have a smaller difference between each.

So what is PTF and why is it used?

Post Tetanic Facilitation (or Post Activation Potentiation in some circles) is simply a phenomena where by lifting a lighter load following a bigger one, allows the lighter load to be lifted more powerful due to temporary spikes in rate coding amongst other voodoo...

Wikipedia:
"Post-Tetanic Potentiation (PTP) is a form of synaptic plasticity which is short-lived and results in increased frequency of miniature excitatory postsynaptic potentials (mEPSPs) or currents (EPSCs) with no effect on amplitude in the spontaneous postsynaptic potential"

So why are there a different number of sets on harder days?

Something has to give. If the effort is harder, the overall work must lower to stop overtraining.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:22 pm

His thinking is clear. His science is on point. His conclusions are interesting...but dubious.
The other cognitive process that acts as a major player in the formation of beliefs is agenticity, the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency. Shermer argues that our evolved theory of mind, or capacity to be aware of the mental states and desires of others, has led people to attribute intentionality to the (often false) patterns we perceive.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Bobby
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Bobby » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:41 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Bobby wrote:You can use the british terms tabbing or yomping as well BJ,only the gringos that say rucking.

If you're a civilian and you call walking around with a heavy pack "Tactical Advance to Battle"....you're probably a douche bag.

So,as I am a part timer what would half a douche bag be called? O:)
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:21 pm

Bobby wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Bobby wrote:You can use the british terms tabbing or yomping as well BJ,only the gringos that say rucking.

If you're a civilian and you call walking around with a heavy pack "Tactical Advance to Battle"....you're probably a douche bag.

So,as I am a part timer what would half a douche bag be called? O:)
Baglet.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21108
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:25 am

Kinda interesting, but a lot of people have played around with that exact type of thing and gotten zero results or regressed. Does that mean it's not worth trying? Of course not, it was this guy's magic bullet, how awesome would it be to stumble upon your very own "Ultimate Training Theory" that worked amazingly for you? It would be totally awesome.

In this case there is some isometric studies that show strength developed in X location is translatable from X-15 to X+15 degrees, or something like this, along the joint arc.

TerryB
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9697
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by TerryB » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:04 am

Words.

So many words.
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"

Image

User avatar
Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 20570
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: Training spk for rlz

Post by Turdacious » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:44 am

Bobby wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Bobby wrote:You can use the british terms tabbing or yomping as well BJ,only the gringos that say rucking.

If you're a civilian and you call walking around with a heavy pack "Tactical Advance to Battle"....you're probably a douche bag.

So,as I am a part timer what would half a douche bag be called? O:)
BMac if you didn't finish.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

Post Reply