What's volume training?

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:13 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
newguy wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
newguy wrote:And volume is to an extent relative, but also not really because there are certain levels of volume that are needed for a sport. As I build up to 15 mile weeks, that is an increase in running volume for me. But in no way is that a high volume week. I am still a very low mileage "runner" at 15 a week.

It's ABSOLUTELY relative, which is why BRAMCUNTZ use of the Mike I material is so pointless. Those set and rep numbers represents a snapshot in time once a trainee is using good technique, sound weight selection etc...IE, not a newb.

Your 15 mile a week runner is NOT doing high volume running in the absolute, he's doing relatively high volume for himself to drive th adaption of better technique. Over time, as technique and fitness for the task improve, that would be recovery level running..Again, volume generally trendS up..it is MORE VOLUME until such time as you begin to decline due to age, injury or layoff.

This goes to another point, in which you said, volume is when you're using volume to drive adaptation as opposed to intensity. This is on the one hand true at the stage most people are training at. However, these are not equal partners, over time the relative danger and deep recovery inroads made by intense efforts are THE REASON we need to shift to volume to drive adaptation. So that in general, with healthty trainees, the more advanced you are, the more volume you can tolerate and frankly NEED..You need it because intese efforts to drive adaption leave your frequency so low as to really hamper progress.

All of this lies at the core of block periodization. Segmenting practice into periods of increasing intensity and focus, then backing off and doing it again. It's why advanced athletes use drills rather than full movements, or drills instead of sparring or bodybuilding and high volume lifting. It's why most "peaks" are limited to 8 weeks of total training time before you begin to break down...regardless of sport.
Great points and valuable insights -

My question -
While driving up to 15 mile weeks is higher volume for me - isn't there for each sport a generally accepted level of volume that is needed to reach X level of performance?

For example, running - at some point it seems like most runners who are serious reach X miles a week -
or for lifting lifters who are serious reach X amount of sets/reps at whatever?
You know, I have Run across those sorts of metrics time and again. I suspect they have *some* value.

I can tell you're only what I know from these generalizations in cycling and in powerlifting/weightlifting. Example in road cycling, "until you're spooling out 400 mile weeks of zone 2, you're just fucking around"

And "until you're getting in consistent sessions with 15-25 total working reps at 80% or better on the main lift and then repeating about 75% of that on supplementary lifts, you're really just doing minimal work"

On the one hand these are truish generalizations. OTOH, focusing on these metrics to the exclusion of other important things will derail more people than not.

On the third hand, I do think most people fail to comprehend how hard you must train them get better until they see it in action. I cannot tell you how many people I have seen improve just by being in proximity to that qulality focused work. Ask any memes of this forum who's trained at our place or one like it, or just with a real hard charger like a PRO SM or a Cat 1 cyclist. Eyes get opened. It happens at our gym all the time. day 1 PRs just by elevating expectations. I think Syaigh pulled a 30 plus pound Block pull PR the first day we met.

So do you, yourself need 50 mile weeks minimum to improve as a runner? I dunno. I do know spending time talking to and training with people above your talent level WILL pay off especially in terms
Of seeing what is necessary for really good people to get better.

Does this grok?
Yup. Thank you.

The third hand - how hard you have to train to make serious improvements and you don't know what that is like until you are around people who do train that hard is so true.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:05 pm

Another simplistic way to think about the goal of volume training is to think of it as workload tolerance...going directly after those rep ranges that are most challenging. To learn to tolerate either moderate weight for high reps over and over....OR. Tolerating very challenge weights for multiples sets of low reps....

So, nudging up your "bottom line"- the number of sets you can do at a challenging number of reps at 70-75% of your 1rm.

For me working to get multiple sets of 8-10 on my Dead at about 70% (420x8)

The other approach is to focus on moving up your tolerance to "heavy reps"..so multiple sets of 2-3 at close to 90% of 1rm

For me this would be today's workout....5 sets of doubles at 330 on the bench. Over time I want to move that to perhaps 8-10 sets of doubles at that same weight...which will begin to move the 1rm number without ever encountering a 95% plus lift.

In summary...Workload. Over and Over and Over.

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Sangoma » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:14 am

Speaking of which... About a year ago (I think) I was listening to the Mike Matthews podcast - Muscle for Life. The guest was Mark Rippetoe and the topic - training for older lifters. His opinion - as always unshakeable - was that older trainees don't handle volume well and that sets of ten is about the worst that an older lifter can do. I think this is bullshit. I must confess though that must feelings about Rippetoe oscillate between deep request for the practitioner in the field and utter irritation with his self-confidence of giving opinions about pretty much everything, from Scotch to episiotomy. As well as his readiness to call stupid anything that he does not understand.

In any case, what are the opinions of the educated brethren? Sets of ten good or bad? Should 55 year olds stick with three sets of five for the rest of their journeys?
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:00 am

Not an expert here, but for me the higher rep sets are key. Build muscle and time under the bar without crushing you with big weights. Good time to hone technique as well.

Stan Efferding would agree. Here he is at ~50 doing talking about using sets of 20 in the squat to get results since his knees can't handle heavy squats. Take with a huge PED grain of salt.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Boris » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:49 pm

I've never been 55 and I don't keep up with what Rip says so take this with a grain of salt.

I've been doing sets of 10 off and on since I was a wee lad and started doing bdwt exercises and since starting lifting weights at 13. There is nothing inherently good or bad or magical about one training number, volume, intensity, density, interval, or frequency. It's about goals and choosing appropriate training and behaviors to meet those goals.

I think most people who have hypertrophy goals are going to spend a chunk of their time doing sets in the 8-20 rep range.

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:01 pm

Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:Not an expert here, but for me the higher rep sets are key. Build muscle and time under the bar without crushing you with big weights. Good time to hone technique as well.

Stan Efferding would agree. Here he is at ~50 doing talking about using sets of 20 in the squat to get results since his knees can't handle heavy squats. Take with a huge PED grain of salt.
My dose is at a clinical level and I tend to agree with him. Look 20r squats will not make you Capital S strong......nor will they make you FIT....but god damn if they aren't really good at packing on leg meat, keeping your joints pretty healthy and making you feel like a god damn animal.

I think 10's and 15's can do the same. As Boris is saying..no magic to that number, it's simply more likely that 20 reps will take you about 45-70 seconds...which is the limit of your glycolitic system. Like running a 400meter or riding a 1000 meter on the track, you will feel like a smashed cat afterwards...then the rush of endorphins and well being is overwhelmingly good. It's really hard...it's not super heavy and it taxes you physically and mentally...that's a very good thing I think.

(FYI: the cardio bennies are vastly overstated...it doers fuck all for your CV system...but it makes you able to embrace the suck)
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:29 pm

Reps. The key here is not to push every set to failure. I do not do high RPE high rep sets anymore in complex movements. Too much wear and tear already and high reps under high tension tends to reveal whatgoingtomfailure muscle fatigues first and I get hurt. But YMMV. They worked great when I was younger but my ability it do heavy sets of 8 disappeared in my 30s somewhere. On the other hand simpler ISO movements work great. I have rehabbed several pec strains with High rep floor presses.

Having said all that, volume being higher at the end of your cycle, higher when you are squatting 800 then 400, higher as you get ready to step on stage in your underwear, and here is the key, only 10-20% lower in season for a real sport athlete is a fundamental training concept. If you don't get this you have big disappointments ahead.

Interesting story. When Dorian Yates was on top he was in all the muscle mags and like most guys his training was simplified and glorified for the talk about it but not do it crowd. He was famous for his heavy duty style training. But even in Muscle Mags he was doing 2-3 exercises per body parts, and doing climbing method to his top set (135x8, 225x8, 315x8, 365x8, 405x8). But he was advertised and sold as 1 set to failure. Well I saw his own video produced after he retired and was not on the Weider Payroll. And he said after his muscle tears he realized going to failure was killing him, and he had realized in his last few cycles that going to positive failure was enough, then a drop set or two was key in each exercise. Mike Mentzer's famous training was profiled mainly in his cutting phase. He grew up on 5x5, and did a lot more volume even in his own off season at the top of his game. But that is hard to sell to clients who show up and think one set to failure on a the leg extension will give you thigh sweep.

If you think there are various methods, there aren't. There is just volume. It just depends how much you do, how heavy, and how fast. What is more taxing? 15 reps in the DL with 315 or 15 reps done as singles with 1 min rest or even every half hour? What about 25? What about 130 over a half hour? When you begin to grow permutations and combinations you are now a coach!
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:51 pm

Slightly off topic, but an ethernally entertaining issue. Yesterday at the hospital car park I bump into my colleague, another anaesthetist. She tells me about this cycling session (she is a recreational cyclist) she had this morning and how she can barely walk. During the conversation it comes up that pretty much every session she does is balls to the wall and that she is not progressing at a pace she was hoping to. I suggest - maybe she doesn't have to kill herself every time she gets on the bike and mention Maffetone and Easy Strength - as examples that easing off may be more beneficial. At the mention of weight training she lights up and says that yes, she was listening to the Ferris' podcast with Dorian... Dorian... something who says you have to warm up and then do two sets to absolute failure. I suggest that this Dorian something is Dorian Yates? Yes, that's him. I ask, are you aware that this guy is not from the planet Earth? I get a blank stare. Later on I showed her Yates' pictures and asked if she really wants to train like him. She agreed that maybe not.

Laughter aside, I find it absolutely impossible to convey to anybody that killing yourself every training session - cycling, running, lifting, circuits, swimming and what not - is not necessary and even counterproductive. I am talking about my colleagues, people in mid-forties to mid-fifties who start training programs because it's "good for you". All of them boast about their session yesterday when their PT put them through the most grueling workout, typically a mixture of high intensity aerobics and, usually, isolation lifts. When I suggest trying a workout that invigorates you - I ALWAYS get the skeptical and condescending chuckle. hat do you know, how of them quit after a few weeks ("you know, really difficult to find the time") and the other half gets injured - most of those are proud of hurting themselves. Eventually they quit too.

One advice I always give friends who ask for it - find a coach with a lot of grey hair who looks muscular. Someone who understands his own stupidity in the past and will not do the 20-year old "coach" (six weeks certificate) shit thinking that the bodies of forty year old novices are as forgiving as those of the youngsters, both exercise and diet wise.

I am going to shut up now. Cheers.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Turdacious » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:12 pm

Sangoma wrote:Slightly off topic, but an ethernally entertaining issue. Yesterday at the hospital car park I bump into my colleague, another anaesthetist. She tells me about this cycling session (she is a recreational cyclist) she had this morning and how she can barely walk. During the conversation it comes up that pretty much every session she does is balls to the wall and that she is not progressing at a pace she was hoping to.
Been there, done that-- one of the worst things for a recreational cyclist is the Strava app. It's hard to learn to embrace riding easy.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by newguy » Mon May 01, 2017 3:17 am

While it is not perfect, one thing that has impacted me a lot this year is the idea of looking at adaptation through the lens of "suntanning."

Adaptation follows along a bell curve. At the far end ( the left) you just do not get enough stress to trigger adaptation. At the far end, the right, the stress is too high.....instead of triggering adaptation, you end up recovering from damage.

Looking at this in the realm of the sun.....I go out to the sun for 10 seconds and run back in. Nothing is going to happen. But, if I go out into the strong sun for 10 hours, gutting it out, no pain-no GAINZ, I am going to wake up with a serious, painful, burn. I'm not adapting...I'm recovering.

We need to do enough to cause enough stress to adapt. But not so much that we create damage that we cannot recover from.

With a sunburn, this is easy to see.

But a run? How do I gauge? Is it just my knees and feet? How can I tell if I've pushed my heart into the damage zone? But at the same time, I don't want to be a weenie. I need to work, and work hard enough to push it.

I don't have any answers here. My only operating principle at this point is to, during an individual session, reflect on if I am racing or training, try to gauge things by weeks and months, not sessions, and focus on adapting over the course of a year.

But as I said, I don't want to be a weenie either and try to push it when I can.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon May 01, 2017 2:34 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:Reps. The key here is not to push every set to failure. I do not do high RPE high rep sets anymore in complex movements.
4/5ths is faster than all out.
newguy wrote:While it is not perfect, one thing that has impacted me a lot this year is the idea of looking at adaptation through the lens of "suntanning."

Adaptation follows along a bell curve.
4/5ths is faster than all out.
Sangoma wrote:, I find it absolutely impossible to convey to anybody that killing yourself every training session - cycling, running, lifting, circuits, swimming and what not - is not necessary and even counterproductive.
4/5ths is faster than all out.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Sangoma » Tue May 02, 2017 2:13 am

Sorry, what's 4/5th?
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Boris » Tue May 02, 2017 3:02 am

80%

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue May 02, 2017 4:10 am

It's an adage I picked up at a track and field coaching event. Essentially, going all out is not as reliable as holding a little back. Stay hungry. Slow down to go fast.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Sangoma » Tue May 02, 2017 4:55 am

Boris wrote:80%
I should have figured it out, dammit.

Reducing intensity of training is the theme that comes out of many respectable coaches on the Net. Dan John and Pavel for strength training, Maffetone for endurance. Falls on deaf ears usually.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by dkay » Wed May 03, 2017 12:38 am

I like Israetel's basic premise of doing the maximum amount of recoverable volume you can put in to achieve progression. This is the way I have always approached things. As a 52 yo, very busy, non-athlete, I still think that this approach is still applicable as a way of staving off inevitable decline. I am now back on 50/20 for this reason. However, my general approach to each workout now is an 80-90 % PER. Not leaving myself lying on my back for a few mins to recover - fun at times, but not worth it.

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by dkay » Wed May 03, 2017 12:41 am

Sorry, wanted to add that the 80-90% per workout approach lets me come back every day, or almost, for something. This way I can maximize volume. I mentioned this in the "how do u train yourself" thread.

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by terra » Wed May 03, 2017 4:26 am

This is a great thread. almost every post has something for the brain to marinade in for a while - even the questions.

Interesting about the 80% thing... I am not a strength/hypertrophy guru, but I found increasing volume at 80% works for me.
For instance, starting Deadlifts at 80%x5 x 5sets in 5 minutes. Then increasing 1 set of 5rep and adding 1 minute each week up to 80%x5 x10sets in 10 minutes. (This single progression is only one part of a general weekly program).
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by newguy » Wed May 03, 2017 4:48 am

For long term adaptation...which might be a kind of stupid phrase because all adaption seem to really happen only in the long term -

In order to really adapt to stress you have to be exposed to the stress over a longer amount of time. Going back to "tanning" paradigm....you don't get your best tan in one day. You come back a golden god after the summer.

So you have to balance the need for long term exposure to a stress in order to gain adaptation. But you cannot go through long term exposure if the intensity is such that it leads to damage. Because then you don't adapt. You heal.

This is why 4/5s is faster than all out is so important.

(I'm talking to myself right now BTW).

You cannot change everything in 8 weeks. Bring your bench up in 8 weeks doesn't work. Because 8 weeks is not a long enough exposure to the stress to make any real significant changes in ability/structure.

Don't think 8 weeks.

Who is going to be further in progress/adaptation. The human who has dedicated 8 weeks of their life and time to improving their running, or the one who has been working on it for 8 years?

But you can't get 8 years if you're constantly pushing 100%.

At the same time, don't be a weenie and settle for mediocrity.

I know I cannot go from a 33 minute 5K to an 22 minute 5K in 8 weeks.

But that doesn't mean I cannot drop to an 18 minute 5K with a few great years of work.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by terra » Thu May 04, 2017 12:12 am

The suntanning analogy brings up another concept - everything has its season.
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Boris » Thu May 04, 2017 11:27 am

terra wrote:The suntanning analogy brings up another concept - everything has its season.
And if we keep going with the analogy, we'd end up with skin cancer. Which says something about bad training practices...

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by terra » Sun May 07, 2017 11:06 am

Boris wrote:
terra wrote:The suntanning analogy brings up another concept - everything has its season.
And if we keep going with the analogy, we'd end up with skin cancer. Which says something about bad training practices...
Zactly
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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Gin Master » Thu May 18, 2017 3:28 pm

Volume training, in grappling terms, is improving through drilling vs. improving through sparring.

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by Sangoma » Wed May 31, 2017 10:41 pm

And I stumble across Ferris' interview with Dorian Yates. Who apparently is the poster boy for HIT training. In his interpretation it is one warm-up set followed by all out set of 8-12 reps.

http://tim.blog/2017/04/22/dorian-yates/

Leaving the training methodology alone, it's an interesting interview. Yates making it from juvenile prison to the top bodybuilding elite.

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Re: What's volume training?

Post by johnst_nhb » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:07 am

Sangoma wrote:Speaking of which... About a year ago (I think) I was listening to the Mike Matthews podcast - Muscle for Life. The guest was Mark Rippetoe and the topic - training for older lifters. His opinion - as always unshakeable - was that older trainees don't handle volume well and that sets of ten is about the worst that an older lifter can do. I think this is bullshit. I must confess though that must feelings about Rippetoe oscillate between deep request for the practitioner in the field and utter irritation with his self-confidence of giving opinions about pretty much everything, from Scotch to episiotomy. As well as his readiness to call stupid anything that he does not understand.

In any case, what are the opinions of the educated brethren? Sets of ten good or bad? Should 55 year olds stick with three sets of five for the rest of their journeys?
I do wonder if Rip is talking about rank beginner "older" trainers? His use of "older" is curious though as he's clearly referring to age, yet at other times I remember him espousing that "training age" is the determinant in novice gains. That is, that a chronologically older beginner can experience "novice gains." So a 55 year old who has been training for years may not fall into the same dogma. I'm 53, been training for a while and I do sets of 10-12 mostly on accessory (though sometimes on primary) lift s. I don't stick to a set progression and IMO that's the key to training while afflicted with age. Jim Steel's "busy lifestyle traning" progressions have been good for me (e.g. Squats may range from 10x3 @70% to 12x3 @ 75% and onward with a peak week and a deload- I'm just giving an example, it's available on his site). That keeps my volume high by keeping it low, lol. Then when I feel good I'll throw in sets of 3-4 x 10.

Oh and Rip blabbers on about training athletes...I'd chose him over Defranco any day.

That was sarcasm.

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