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 Post subject: My Experiment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Posts: 490
So I decided to do an experiment. I was doing basically a 2x2x2 Lift,Cardio,yoga or something similar. I was not making progress, I found I was skipping days, especially yoga because I didn't like doing it despite it definite benefits.

I decided it was time to get serious.

So I decided to alternate Easy Strength Style Workouts and Maffetone Style Cardio training every day if possible. The only days missed were a few Saturdays when I'm in class 7 to 7.

My workout is

Trap Bar Deadlift/Bench Press Ladder (1/2/3/ x 2)
Safety Bar Squat/Bent over Row Ladder (1/2/3 x 2)
Farmer's Walk 3 trips with the trap bar

I started super light 350 on the Trap Bar, 315 on the squat, 225 on the Bench, 185 on the rows. This is less than 60% (Except maybe the Trap Bar) and was chosen to handle the volume.

I used a Step cycle where I added 5 pounds for two workouts and then backed off 5 pounds. So 2 steps forward, 1 step back. You are really only stepping up to a new weight every third workout.

For cardio, I'm doing bike or rower (or both) anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes (preferably 60) HR between 120-140 (I feel best in the 130's, good cardio effect without pushing it too hard). Every third day I am doing something like a Sprint 8 workout.

For mobility I'm just using the basic "Primal Preset/Reset" pre-workout, and Dan John's Minimalist Stretching Post Workout.

None of these workouts take more than 45 minutes unless I deliberately spend more than 45 on the bike/rower.

My results have been an approximately 80 pound increases to the training weights, after some initial fatigue and soreness week 1, I feel great, I can now walk in and pull 400+ on the low handles on my trap bar in street clothes with no warm up. I have lost 30 pounds. My RHR has gone down from the Low 60's to the high 50's.

I still pajama wrestle 2 or 3 times a week, this actually feels easier now, as I feel in overall better shape and I can only describe it as "springy". If you have ever had to get in game shape for a contact sport, you know what I mean.

My only plan for when I reach the full 40 (I'm at 36 now), Is to switch up the lifts.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Gunny
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Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:27 pm
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Location: brooklyn, ny
Uncommonly smart work you're doing.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:49 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm
Posts: 19020
Quote:
So I decided to do an experiment. I was doing basically a 2x2x2 Lift,Cardio,yoga or something similar. I was not making progress, I found I was skipping days, especially yoga because I didn't like doing it despite it definite benefits.

I decided it was time to get serious.

So I decided to alternate Easy Strength Style Workouts and Maffetone Style Cardio training every day if possible. The only days missed were a few Saturdays when I'm in class 7 to 7.

My workout is

Trap Bar Deadlift/Bench Press Ladder (1/2/3/ x 2)
Safety Bar Squat/Bent over Row Ladder (1/2/3 x 2)
Farmer's Walk 3 trips with the trap bar

I started super light 350 on the Trap Bar, 315 on the squat, 225 on the Bench, 185 on the rows. This is less than 60% (Except maybe the Trap Bar) and was chosen to handle the volume.

I used a Step cycle where I added 5 pounds for two workouts and then backed off 5 pounds. So 2 steps forward, 1 step back. You are really only stepping up to a new weight every third workout.

For cardio, I'm doing bike or rower (or both) anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes (preferably 60) HR between 120-140 (I feel best in the 130's, good cardio effect without pushing it too hard). Every third day I am doing something like a Sprint 8 workout.

For mobility I'm just using the basic "Primal Preset/Reset" pre-workout, and Dan John's Minimalist Stretching Post Workout.

None of these workouts take more than 45 minutes unless I deliberately spend more than 45 on the bike/rower.

My results have been an approximately 80 pound increases to the training weights, after some initial fatigue and soreness week 1, I feel great, I can now walk in and pull 400+ on the low handles on my trap bar in street clothes with no warm up. I have lost 30 pounds. My RHR has gone down from the Low 60's to the high 50's.

I still pajama wrestle 2 or 3 times a week, this actually feels easier now, as I feel in overall better shape and I can only describe it as "springy". If you have ever had to get in game shape for a contact sport, you know what I mean.

My only plan for when I reach the full 40 (I'm at 36 now), Is to switch up the lifts.

Brilliant work Sir.

Seriously good shit.

_________________
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JH Mill


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Fantastic. Your magic bullet.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Nicely done. Is there a synopsis of "Maffetone Style Cardio?" I feel like there's 8 posts/articles and they're all different.

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//:=)


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Gunny
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:17 pm
Posts: 777
Nice!

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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:20 pm
Posts: 490
Quote:
Nicely done. Is there a synopsis of "Maffetone Style Cardio?" I feel like there's 8 posts/articles and they're all different.
Bear in mind, I don't stick to this religiously like some people. I keep my HR between 120-140 (I feel best in the 130's) and how I feel is very close to the actual math. If I see my rate cracking 140, I slow down. In the beginning, you will have to move super slow to keep from exceeding your target HR. After you build a base, you have to work really hard to get in and stay in the rate without dropping below.

Directly from the man himself:

https://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/
Quote:
The 180 Formula
To find your maximum aerobic training heart rate, there are two important steps.
Subtract your age from 180.
Modify this number by selecting among the following categories the one that best matches your fitness and health profile:
a)  If you have or are recovering from a major illness (heart disease, any operation or hospital stay, etc.) or are on any regular medication, subtract an additional 10.
b)  If you are injured, have regressed in training or competition, get more than two colds or bouts of flu per year, have allergies or asthma, or if you have been inconsistent or are just getting back into training, subtract an additional 5.
c)  If1 you have been training consistently (at least four times weekly) for up to two years without any of the problems in (a) and (b), keep the number (180–age) the same.
d)  If you have been training for more than two years without any of the problems in (a) and (b), and have made progress in competition without injury, add 5.
For example, if you are 30 years old and fit into category (b), you get the following: 180–30=150. Then 150–5=145 beats per minute (bpm).
In this example, 145 must be the highest heart rate for all training. This allows you to most efficiently build an aerobic base. Training above this heart rate rapidly incorporates anaerobic function, exemplified by a shift to burning more sugar and less fat for fuel.
Initially, training at this relatively low rate may be difficult for some athletes. “I just can’t train that slowly!” is a common comment. But after a short time, you will feel better and your pace will quicken at that same heart rate. You will not be stuck training at that relatively slow pace for too long. Still, for many athletes it is difficult to change bad habits.
If it is difficult to decide which of two groups best fits you, choose the group or outcome that results in the lower heart rate. In athletes who are taking medication that may affect their heart rate, wear a pacemaker, or have special circumstances not discussed here, further consultation with a healthcare practitioner or specialist may be necessary, particularly one familiar with the 180 Formula.
Exemptions:
The 180 Formula may need to be further individualized for people over the age of 65. For some of these athletes, up to 10 beats may have to be added for those in category (d) in the 180 Formula, and depending on individual levels of fitness and health. This does not mean 10 should automatically be added, but that an honest self-assessment is important.
For athletes 16 years of age and under, the formula is not applicable; rather, a heart rate of 165 may be best.
Once a maximum aerobic heart rate is found, a training range from this heart rate to 10 beats below could be used. For example, if an athlete’s maximum aerobic heart rate is determined to be 155, that person’s aerobic training zone would be 145 to 155 bpm. However, the more training closer to the maximum 155, the quicker an optimal aerobic base will be developed.

This has also shaped how I do my "cardio". I bought a C2 many years ago, and was lucky enough to get a pretty much unused Airdyne from a family member for the cost of hauling it away. Breaking the sessions into 15 minute blocks or chunks has made them much more palatable. Sometimes I still do a long session, it's good to gut check and make your body know you can row for an hour if you want to, but not too often.

http://www.8weeksout.com/2012/02/23/roa ... -comeback/


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:55 am 
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Thanks for article, and nicely done.

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//:=)


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm
Posts: 1574
Quote:
Nicely done. Is there a synopsis of "Maffetone Style Cardio?" I feel like there's 8 posts/articles and they're all different.
Breathe through your nose only (both inhale and exhale) and forget about heart-rate monitors. It works like a charm.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:55 am 
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Location: TX
Great stuff

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"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Sergeant Commanding
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Posts: 7666
Location: TX
Great stuff

_________________
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:04 pm 
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I have started the Maffetone method, which is relaxing and makes me feel good. But I'm struggling to get over the live long idea that exercise is supposed to hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Sgt. Major
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I've read of people getting down to stupid fast pace/mile on the Maffetone style of training. Like 5:00 miles at ridiculously low HR. It's hard to wrap your mind around the "go slow to go fast" idea of base building, but if you can check the ego and do the work it seems to produce good results.

_________________
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Sergeant Commanding

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm
Posts: 6760
Quote:
I've read of people getting down to stupid fast pace/mile on the Maffetone style of training. Like 5:00 miles at ridiculously low HR. It's hard to wrap your mind around the "go slow to go fast" idea of base building, but if you can check the ego and do the work it seems to produce good results.
really?

what may not be readily apparent from the maffetone site is that once you've "built the base," he acknowledges you then have got to do tempo runs, intervals, etc. so i'm betting anyone running 5-min miles is doing the requisite speed work.

here's a quotation from a portion the editor's response to question on the site:
Quote:
I can tell you that your training will probably start to become unhealthy when your high-intensity training exceeds around 25% of your total volume.
if you're geeky, you'll find a fair amount of detail in the comments section of this article on the site:
https://philmaffetone.com/original-rese ... /#comments

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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm
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Quote:
I've read of people getting down to stupid fast pace/mile on the Maffetone style of training. Like 5:00 miles at ridiculously low HR. It's hard to wrap your mind around the "go slow to go fast" idea of base building, but if you can check the ego and do the work it seems to produce good results.
Implausible. I've run a 5:40 when I was a low-BW wrestler and was blasting. 40 seconds faster is a pace for track/x-country specialists only and is way over warmup speeds. JMO but that's a see-it-to-believe scenario. Way too fast to be lightly pumping.

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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:59 am 
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Sgt. Major
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I figured there had to be some real sharp training going on to get the results some people were claiming.

I've always followed Friel's training for racing on my bike. When I was competitive he was HR based. He's now moved on to power based measurements for the bike. Not sure how he's training for the run and swim for Tri as I've never gotten into that.

_________________
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:20 pm
Posts: 490
Quote:
I've read of people getting down to stupid fast pace/mile on the Maffetone style of training. Like 5:00 miles at ridiculously low HR. It's hard to wrap your mind around the "go slow to go fast" idea of base building, but if you can check the ego and do the work it seems to produce good results.
I can not equate this to running, I don't run anymore, cause I'm fat. Just an idea of the kind of results you get from maffetone cardio. When I started I used to have to keep my Airdyne RPMs at 55-58 to keep my HR under 140. Now I have to keep my rpm's around 70 to get to 130 and stay in the 130's. Same with the C2, my 500 splits were in the 2:40s/2:30s. Now they are in the 2:20/2:10s (some of my early splits will be around or under 2:00). Just for info I use a really heavy drag.


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 Post subject: Re: My Experiment
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:56 pm
Posts: 379
Fwiw there is absolutely no benefit to using a high drag on the erg.

Drop it down to somewhere between 110-125 (130 max). Even Olympic pros wouldn't train higher than that.

Keep your stroke rate low 18-22

Biggest problem I had with using HR on the erg is temperature/airflow. Unlike running or cycling where you're out in the air and moving through it, the erg is usually either in a hot gym or your living room. Try monitoring your HR for 20 minutes then stick a big cooling fan on you and watch it drop or your pace improve at the same HR.

I gave up in the end as it would vary so much so easily - instead work out what average watts your hr is definitely in that right zone, and train at that wattage instead, focusing on keeping the watts the same each stroke.

After a week or so go up 5 watts and monitor your hr with it too.

I know I can just hop on and row at day 185 watts at 19spm and I'll be in the right hr zone or close enough.


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