Cues and Cueing

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JohnDoe
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Cues and Cueing

Post by JohnDoe » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:57 pm

There are a lot of smart people and coaches on here. One of my goals as a coach (rowing) is to simplify my language. Rowing in a skinny boat on a river does not lend itself to longwinded explanations on the fly. My specific concern is getting kids to move their bodies at the beginning of the rowing stroke, and not worry about the handle, which is akin to not moving the bar in a deadlift, but moving the hips. What are your cues for that movement? And, to be honest, any other cues for any other major lifts. I'm trying to come up with a list of one or two word statements I can shout on the river that have an association with something we've practiced and explained on land. Thanks.

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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by dead man walking » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:22 pm

not sure i understand exactly what part of the stroke you're referring to, but in my brief career as a bad sculler, i found two cues helpful:

first was not to break my arms at the beginning of the drive but to keep them extended. one coach advised me (us) to imagine we were "hanging onto monkey bars" as we began the leg drive. now when i erg, i sometimes repeat "monkey bars" to myself.

the second cue is a more sophisticated version of the first. larry gluckman, a coach you may know, referred to the "power rectangle" an oarsman creates with his leg drive while keeping his arms straight and unbroken. (gluckman would check the the geometry of the rectangle using video review of the stroke.) i don't think anyone achieves a perfect rectangle, but that's the idea. so "power rectangle" is another mantra, but monkey bars comes more naturally.
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Ryan
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by Ryan » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:50 pm

If the technique is the same as a land rower (Concept 2) what I found helpful was: Legs, hips, arms then arms, hips, legs.
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by JohnDoe » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:04 pm

All correct and well within my wheelhouse. I'm more interested in the carryover vocabulary of other sports, be it Oly lifting, GS, bodyweight, anything really.

If you're fixing a lousy deadlift that's got too much back and not enough legs, do you cue/say 'hips' or do you have another word or two that means the same thing? In the boat/on the erg, I tell kids to 'move your bodies first, and worry about the handle later'. But that takes too long to say on the water (I think) and is still more abstract than I want to be.

If you're working with a novice squatter who has bad head positioning, what're the words you use to fix it? A snatch that starts with a grab at the arms, not a snap at the hips? A bench press that's....whatever.

The most interesting thing to me in watching other coaches of any sport is the vocabulary and explanations. What quick, effective vocabulary do you use when you work with/fix faults in the strength sports?

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Shafpocalypse Now
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:51 pm

Ditto with Ryan, after watching the Crossfit rowing subject matter expert, I came away with 1) you get the most out of the legs 2) legs/back/arms, arms/back/legs as the proper movement sequence of the stroke.

With deadlifting or shit, even olympic lift variants, it's really, really hard to get some kids to be able to lift with a straight or neutral or even slightly arched back. I had a state level wrestler, whom, when working with him in the weight room for football, had no idea on how to bend use his hips. It took me weeks before I could get him to deadlift correctly. There is a big factor of physical retardation in kids nowadays due to excessive sitting, cell phone use, and video gaming. And this kid was a lousy football player because he didn't get it...I have no idea how he wrestled so well.

I had to use a stick and a wall to get him to feel what a neutral back was, then, when he'd bend over, he'd bend over with his spine, not his hips....so then it was a stick and athletic tape for the spine, then teaching the reach back to the wall with the butt. It was a long drawn out process but eventually I did get him to be able to lift. He could push sleds just fine. It was just super weird and hard to correct

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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by nafod » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:03 pm

My own cue to myself for motions like this is "move from the center", or if I am screwing things up, "move from the center, asshole". The key is it puts my awareness on my center of mass.
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Sangoma
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by Sangoma » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:42 pm

The cue that changed my understanding of the deadlift was "push the floor with your feet" instead of "getting up". Made it smoother and easier.
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terra
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by terra » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:38 am

I get the movements you are talking about and, this will sound retarded but, for me it can be simply to different sounding grunts.
The hips at the start of the pull is a 'Hmmp' and the end of the pull is a 'Hrrrr'...

Yup, retarded. However...

Can you get the team on a set of rowers in the gym or even deadlifting/rowing side-by-side with light barbell/broomstick and have them do the two movements slowly as you call "one" (for the hip push), and "two" (for the pull)?

Then just change it from 'one' and 'two' to a "Hooo" and a "Haah" sound. It's not a word per-se, so it will not be hampered so much by cortex associations. You'll find the team might even start making the sounds as they do the movements and it might even help them entrain as a group (trigger -> breath -> movement etc).

I guess this is why you see these types of cues used in military and police, where the word has morphed into a simple trigger sound that can be barked by a leader/coordinator to get a conditioned response from the team members.
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JohnDoe
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by JohnDoe » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:52 pm

terra wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:38 am
I get the movements you are talking about and, this will sound retarded but, for me it can be simply to different sounding grunts.
The hips at the start of the pull is a 'Hmmp' and the end of the pull is a 'Hrrrr'...

Yup, retarded. However...

Can you get the team on a set of rowers in the gym or even deadlifting/rowing side-by-side with light barbell/broomstick and have them do the two movements slowly as you call "one" (for the hip push), and "two" (for the pull)?

Then just change it from 'one' and 'two' to a "Hooo" and a "Haah" sound. It's not a word per-se, so it will not be hampered so much by cortex associations. You'll find the team might even start making the sounds as they do the movements and it might even help them entrain as a group (trigger -> breath -> movement etc).

I guess this is why you see these types of cues used in military and police, where the word has morphed into a simple trigger sound that can be barked by a leader/coordinator to get a conditioned response from the team members.
The 'hrmmmp' is perfect. We talk a lot about 'finding the post' at the beginning of the stroke, which is the significant resistance you'll feel with good timing in the boat--the erg doesn't replicate it all really, no matter what damper. I've used it for a few days now and it jives well. Oddly enough, just 'Hips!' takes care of all sorts of odd and intricate things that have to happen with the hands and handle coming up, blade moving down, body changing direction, all while facing backward. I need to find more stuff out on this. Makes me think of semiotics.

Thanks.

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terra
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Re: Cues and Cueing

Post by terra » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:39 pm

Glad to help.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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