When We Eat

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Sangoma
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Re: When We Eat

Post by Sangoma » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:30 pm

Lastly, I don't have anything against Dr.Panda and his research. What I am against is the extrapolation of his research on mice to humans. Which, incidentally, is flawed: you cannot distinguish the effects obtained with experimental groups from simply limiting eating window. What he should have done is to have another group, where mice were fed only during the day time, their unnatural eating time. Then, if there is a difference between day and night limited rodents I will start paying a little attention. And more attention if something of the sort is demonstrated in an interventional trial in humans. Until then - I will spend my attention and energy on fasting.
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Re: When We Eat

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:56 pm

To me fasting is one of those things that makes sense any way you look at it
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Re: When We Eat

Post by Xian » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:59 pm

Sangoma wrote: Until then - I will spend my attention and energy on fasting.
What sort of fasting protocol do you think find to be most optimal (scientifically or n=1)? Intermittent, prolonged, fasting mimicking diets, keto protocols etc?
Do you find (enough) value in any of these beyond maybe being an easier way for some to stay compliant with their total calorie allowance, which you say is 80% of the game regardles of timing and spacing of said calories?
There is a vast difference between treating effects and adjusting the causes.

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Re: When We Eat

Post by Sangoma » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:11 pm

Personal opinion/experience. I think limiting feeding window every day makes sense. How long should it be? I guess depends, but I don't think eating more than eight hours a day can be called fasting. Occasionally I tend to fast for the full day: eat dinner, fast the next day until breakfast the following morning, 36 ours total. A bit of a challenge, but not that big a deal. I don't do it as often as I would like to, but when I do the subjective results are noticeable. At least, the first meal in the morning, never mind how bland, tastes like heaven.

Keto diets - there are a few case reports/series on keto diets in patients with glioblastoma, a very aggressive brain tumour, reporting longer survival. On the other hand, I haven't seen much evidence of benefits of ketosis in healthy people. Then again, irregularity of any sort seems to be beneficial, so maybe occasional periods of ketosis are good for us? OTOH, Valter Longo's research on Fasting Mimicking Diets in cancer patients show better response to chemotherapy. FMD is patented and not completely disclosed, but leaks on the Net say this is a low calorie/high fat diet that produces ketosis.

Lastly, I think most of us have excess weight/fat and therefore would benefit from the simple "eat less". Again it makes sense: less food - less postprandial hyperglycaemia, less immune response and less stuff in the gut.
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Sangoma
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Re: When We Eat

Post by Sangoma » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:53 am

And yes, you can have your feeding window whenever it feels right. I prefer skipping breakfast and eating later during the day. For others it can be other way around. Some like being stuffed when going to bed, some not. All personal.
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Re: When We Eat

Post by terra » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:14 pm

And yes, you can have your feeding window whenever it feels right.
... I wonder if that's the same certainty that led to thalidomide. :happiness:

Apologies for late reply Smet. Been learning/building a new website for business rebrand and had fuck-all time to spare. Little time to catch up on real life activities, let alone IGx.

Endotoxins, insulin response etc... Yeah, OK. No disagreement at all.
However as you say, the mechanisms are cloudy. Which always raises the question if these things aren't just artifact results gained from studying unhealthy people. E.g. leaky gut effect on endotoxin, and what is 'normal' anyway etc..?

It always comes to back to us actually not knowing what the baseline physiology of a 'healthy human' is. It's hard to deduct the complex interplay by studying humans in captivity. And we'll probably never know now, due to DDT, radiation, etc, etc. We can only try to shift factors in our favour. Due to non linearity, we'll also never fully know the 'percentage' benefit we might gain.

The future may hold some interesting findings regarding timing of sleep/feeding etc. Its long term effect on the ability for the human complex self-organising system to maintain a coherence that allows the individual to achieve somewhere close to their potential for 'health'.

Anyhow this popped up this morning whilst looking for something else...

"The Biological Clock: A Pivotal Hub in Non-alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease Pathogenesis"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5890189/

Which led me to this, which isn't new, but worth noting...

"A functional circadian clock is required for proper insulin secretion by human pancreatic islet cells"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26662378

(Warning: Stand on a chair whilst reading the first one. There's some rodent references).
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Sangoma
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Re: When We Eat

Post by Sangoma » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:36 pm

Terra, as I hinted earlier, I tend to work down the list of things according to importance. Sure, it is quite possible that the timing of eating and synchronisation with the circadian rhythms does play a role of pathology. On the other hand human organism is a very complex system, and there are various compensation mechanisms that may or may not mitigate doing something out of whack with the biological clock. For example, what happens if I also exercise at night? Will it offset bad timing? At any rate, at this stage the demonstrated effect of unsynchronised eating is fairly small. Animal experiments are what they are, models. Human evidence is all over the place, mostly coming from epidemiological studies on night shift workers with the multitude of confounders or very short interventional studies with artificial outcomes. You know what I am talking about: some fat nurse in the tea room commenting on white bread in my lunch box. Or my stepbrother's favorited: people scold him for smoking menthol cigarettes because they are really harmful; his response: what, is the rest of the cigarette good for health? That's why I prefer to concentrate on something with well proven large effect, such as reduced caloric intake and fasting. As well as stress management which, I believe, is another big thing, which is extremely difficult to measure.

But then sure, I will try not eat too late at night and will try enough sleep in the appropriate hours. I'm just not going to be paranoid about this.

One remark. In the review on NAFLD you posted one place bothers me: the paragraph on pharmaceutical intervention. All the drugs with numbers instead of names. Is all the interest in circadian aspect of eating the lead up to the marketing campaigns? I don't know, but I think you can see my point. I get very cynical at the smell of Pharma.
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