IGX "...overflowing with foulmouthed ignorance."

IGX "...overflowing with foulmouthed ignorance."
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:10 am 
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We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise, testosterone with no exercise, placebo plus exercise, and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively.

Results
Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [±SE] change in triceps area, 424±104 vs. -81±109 mm2; P<0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607±123 vs. -131±111 mm2; P<0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9±4 vs. -1±1 kg, P<0.05) and squatting exercises (16±4 vs. 3±1 kg, P<0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1±0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501±104 mm2; quadriceps area, 1174±91 mm2) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22±2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38±4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group.

Conclusions
Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N ... 7043350101

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Lyle talked about similar studies, iirc. Back before he had that total bonkers breakdown.

One of the things that pisses me off about the "steroids don't do as much as you think" crowd is stuff like this.

Edited: no reason to slam someone by name who's not here to respond.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:40 am 
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Well... As always, the devil and the details he is lurking beneath...

In no exercise testosterone group quadriceps area went up from 9067 to 9674 mm square, or about 6%. If we assume the quadriceps to be round (sure, it's not true, but let's), then the estimated circumference before and after is 34 cm versus 33 cm, the increase of 1 cm. Not as impressive. The change in the triceps size is somewhat more impressive - 12% in the cross sectional area, but 1 cm in circumference (21 cm before, 22 cm after), not giant.

No question, testosterone affects body composition, and this is most pronounced when kids hit puberty: guys lose the chub, gain muscle and strength, while girls gain a bit of fat. This study, however, fits with Lyle's "steroids don't do that much" thing. The increase is not crazy, and the effect is demonstrated fairly short term - we know that it tapers off and continuing gains require higher doses and stacks.

As an aside, I think "steroids don't do that much" is useful in certain context. I get irritated when I hear comments about some star athlete: "yeah, that's steroids!" As if taking steroids is the only thing you need to become the next Lance Armstrong or Marianne Jones.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:51 pm 
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1 cm in the arm diameter its good enough :)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Smet, you missed my point.

IIRC, Lyle used to talk about studies like this as evidence of the impact steroids can have. If you can sit on your ass and get bigger, what does that mean when you train, take higher dosages/different compounds, eat for growth etc?

I heard Branch Warren and Mark Bell talk about how steroids 'only add 20-30 pounds'. Assuming that's true, do you know how much 20+ pounds of muscle is?

Bell walked on stage at 230 at probably 4-5% bodyfat. He's over 40.

For the record, even though Bell irritates me, I think he does a hell of a lot more good than bad in the strength and now physique worlds.

I'm also pro PED. I just don't like the 'steroids don't help that much' chirping.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:01 pm 
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I'm also pro PED. I just don't like the 'steroids don't help that much' chirping.
That's pretty much exactly where I am at. I have no problem with people juicing, but spare me the bullshit.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:33 pm 
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This is one of those...you don't know what you don't know.

There are so many HIGHLY individual factors.
There is individual response to a particular compound or a series of compounds
Physical Tolerance of side effects, Mental Tolerance of side effects
Where you are at relative to genetic potential,
Body type
Diet
Sleep
Hydration status,
Stress level.

All the factors at play in your success without drugs are every bit as in play and more ON drugs. I would agree with an element of both sides. Regarding the ON crowd is, I know of no person who wouldn't so better with a little (or perhaps a massive) amount of help.

That said, if you think it's an automatic game changer you're simply dead wrong. Spend 5-10 years fiddling around with it and get back to me. Your perspective will not be anywhere near the starting point.

I would state Mark's position this way, PED's can make a massive but in most cases small amount of difference. When that "difference" is applied to so0meone who's an outlier or already at the edges of their capabilities (Vitor) a little goes a LOOOOOOOONNNNGG way. When you are joe blow, just figuring things out, it's pissing up a rope for most people.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:02 pm 
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This is one of those...you don't know what you don't know.

There are so many HIGHLY individual factors.
There is individual response to a particular compound or a series of compounds
Physical Tolerance of side effects, Mental Tolerance of side effects
Where you are at relative to genetic potential,
Body type
Diet
Sleep
Hydration status,
Stress level.

All the factors at play in your success without drugs are every bit as in play and more ON drugs. I would agree with an element of both sides. Regarding the ON crowd is, I know of no person who wouldn't so better with a little (or perhaps a massive) amount of help.

That said, if you think it's an automatic game changer you're simply dead wrong. Spend 5-10 years fiddling around with it and get back to me. Your perspective will not be anywhere near the starting point.

I would state Mark's position this way, PED's can make a massive but in most cases small amount of difference. When that "difference" is applied to so0meone who's an outlier or already at the edges of their capabilities (Vitor) a little goes a LOOOOOOOONNNNGG way. When you are joe blow, just figuring things out, it's pissing up a rope for most people.
Great information!!!! And I totally agree with everything.

What I have found in my 12 years on HRT is that I have slowly had to increase my doses to stay in the mid range. Note that is marginal. And when I first started, I was extremely responsive to low amounts. 100mg a week put me nearly off the scale initially. Now, I need 150 to get the midrange.

Everyone's responsiveness is different. Just like responsiveness to types of training, genetic make up for bodybuilding/strength/etc. One person needs a gram of test to gain anything; another needs 1/8th that. just like some can bench 300 easy, while others will never do that at any point in their lives.

Here I what I can tell you about the cycles I did and my observations from all the years of the people who have used recreationally, athletically, and medically. I would say I have personally observed at least a 1000 people in this perspective. I was also a moderator of one of the big PED websites "back in the day" that had over 25k members.

What Dave has written is spot on. A little goes a long way. Sadly Joe Blow starts too high because of all the shit he reads on the internet that the Pros are doing. When you start too high, you set yourself up for failure in my opinion. It's not sustainable.

HRT is not the end all be all either. To make the most of it, you need to sleep well, diet well, train well and basically do everything well. The biggest hurdle that most of us deal with is fucking cortisol caused by stress.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:42 pm 
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RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:25 pm 
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RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.
Bluntly, Yes. What I would do differently than what I did previously, is that I would NOT ever go over 400 to 500mg per week total; and I would never go under 100mg per week ever. Beyond that, my wife and I have an agreement - at 60, she gets to resume smoking - unfiltered Malboro's; and I get to go the life extension clinic.

I would have no reservations if my children decided to use, again, in moderation. Nothing to excess. Anything in excess, is just that - excess. Quarterly blood draws with all pertinent panels. Annual physicals. Stay in touch with the blood pressure to make sure it's not out of hand. Had a discussion with my eldest and her use of marijuana a few weeks ago. I bluntly told her that once it's legal in our state, my insomnia will disappear. And I told her that I felt it was perfectly fine to use it once or twice a week to take the edge off. But never let it become a thing of dependence. Again, I am a big believer in nothing to dependence and nothing to excess - ever.

The concept of hobbyists is not sustainable. It's a life style. Just like eating for performance. Just like staying fit for life.

I've decided that we have one life to live. Live it the best way we can. The older I get, the more libertarian I become. Just leave me the fuck alone. I like my guns too. A lot.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:25 pm 
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RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.
Bluntly, Yes. What I would do differently than what I did previously, is that I would NOT ever go over 400 to 500mg per week total; and I would never go under 100mg per week ever. Beyond that, my wife and I have an agreement - at 60, she gets to resume smoking - unfiltered Malboro's; and I get to go the life extension clinic.

I would have no reservations if my children decided to use, again, in moderation. Nothing to excess. Anything in excess, is just that - excess. Quarterly blood draws with all pertinent panels. Annual physicals. Stay in touch with the blood pressure to make sure it's not out of hand. Had a discussion with my eldest and her use of marijuana a few weeks ago. I bluntly told her that once it's legal in our state, my insomnia will disappear. And I told her that I felt it was perfectly fine to use it once or twice a week to take the edge off. But never let it become a thing of dependence. Again, I am a big believer in nothing to dependence and nothing to excess - ever.

The concept of hobbyists is not sustainable. It's a life style. Just like eating for performance. Just like staying fit for life.

I've decided that we have one life to live. Live it the best way we can. The older I get, the more libertarian I become. Just leave me the fuck alone. I like my guns too. A lot.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:26 pm 
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RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.
Bluntly, Yes. What I would do differently than what I did previously, is that I would NOT ever go over 400 to 500mg per week total; and I would never go under 100mg per week ever. Beyond that, my wife and I have an agreement - at 60, she gets to resume smoking - unfiltered Malboro's; and I get to go the life extension clinic.

I would have no reservations if my children decided to use, again, in moderation. Nothing to excess. Anything in excess, is just that - excess. Quarterly blood draws with all pertinent panels. Annual physicals. Stay in touch with the blood pressure to make sure it's not out of hand. Had a discussion with my eldest and her use of marijuana a few weeks ago. I bluntly told her that once it's legal in our state, my insomnia will disappear. And I told her that I felt it was perfectly fine to use it once or twice a week to take the edge off. But never let it become a thing of dependence. Again, I am a big believer in nothing to dependence and nothing to excess - ever.

The concept of hobbyists is not sustainable. It's a life style. Just like eating for performance. Just like staying fit for life.

I've decided that we have one life to live. Live it the best way we can. The older I get, the more libertarian I become. Just leave me the fuck alone. I like my guns too. A lot.

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The cool thing about training is that becoming more sexy is just a side effect........


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:08 pm 
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RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.
Both of these assumptions are incomplete.

Pros do not do it for the money...In these niche sports, they begin as hobbyists that discover a talent or a responsiveness level that puts them on a higher level. These are the great preponderance of folks using PED's.

The narrow band of pros and Olympic hopefuls using PED's are not even in the same category. These are medical interventions meaning...well planned, researched and administered by professional. The doping programs of even the top amateur cycling teams in Europe are well beyond the sophistication of most professional athletes in the NFL.

The second incomplete understanding is one you already know. In BJJ, there is blue belt level understanding and there are deeper levels of understanding to be had. To achieve these requires sacrifice and a willingness to do those things which are neither "normal" nor "healthy"...they require you to do things outside of the scope of what most people will tolerate from a pain standpoint, from a health standpoint, from a philosophical standpoint. When your sports "require" exogenous substances to break above purple belt (for lack of a better analogy) there is a culture of tolerance which develops. It is not outlier activity anymore than drug use among rock stars is outlier activity. It's part of the culture like accepting cauliflower ear is part of the culture of wrestling. You mitigate the risk as best you can, but you do not fuss about it. This is part of the game..Hobbyists...even bad ones want to be part of that game.

And frankly, it's fucking fun. It FEELS amazing to change the basic moving parts of your biology in palpable way. Anyone who's lost or gained a great deal of weight, gotten tattoos or piercings, done a diet or lifestyle makeover can attest to the incredibly powerful stimulus that comes from changing the meat suit you're wearing. Sadly, most people will skip the slam dunk changes that come form diet in favor of "magical" PED's but honesty, having done both, user experience is the same. Focus dedication sacrifice..results. PED's are no different in this way.


Honestly, once you've played in deep water, PED's are nor more troubling than downing a Vicodin with a Bourbon...yeah, you're not supposed to do that. But it's not remotely the risk people play it up to be and the effects are probably more subtle and ..it is fun. Part of that fun, is taking control of the moving pieces as best you can. Whether this the result of full on drug piggery which is risky or whether it's deliberate risk assessed small measures like RBSG and I are describing...it feels good and it works.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:28 pm 
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As for the Son or Daughter question....in my house we have had an open door policy of discussing ANY and all drugs. It's called "the drug talk", it includes my user reports and required reading. I am 100% supportive of their wise use of rec.pharma including PED's. I have been blunt to the point of tedious on these matters. For those who know me IRL, that's a pretty damn big spread of drugs to discuss. Based on their reaction to the "the talk" I doubt they will crack a beer until they are in their 20's

In my mind, titration of risk is skill needed to live a skillful and enjoyable life. This is 100% a responsibility as a parent...whether it's guns, table saws, or pharma, I pull no punches in discussing pros and cons

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:19 pm 
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I believe being open with kids is the best strategy. A little while ago one podcaster made me cringe. That guy (Skeptiko podcast) keeps raving about psychedelics as the way to discover the realms of extended consciousness and what not. Yet, when one of his guests asked him if he himself had any experience with LSD or psilocybin he refused to answer, mumbling something about being an example for his kids etc. My question is, how can you talk about stuff you never had experience with or believe that it is somewhat immoral so that you cannot confess it to your kids?

Knowledge is the only safety there is. Either we like it or not, our kids will experiment with all kind of stuff, including drugs. Guess what, this is what we did at their age! So instead of hypocritical denial and moralistic preaching telling them the truth is the best way to help them to stay safe. Every time my younger daughter leaves for a party or me and my wife go away for a weekend I half-jokingly say: remember, no injectables. Hell, she reads memoirs of Hunter Thompson, you reckon she is not going to get curious about the stuff?

Lack of information, misinformation and moralistic hypocrisy are doing a lot of harm. BD is absolutely right: risk is what makes life worth living. I live in Australia, the most risk averse country in the world, full stop. Someone sneezes - they come up with a policy the next day. Usually misguided, misdirected and not making any sense. As the result there is very little initiative here. "I don't make the policy, I only reinforce it" - this mantra used to drive me mad. I used to say, can I see the guy who made the policy? Alas, waste of time, there is nobody capable os saying: this is what I decided and I am going to stand by it, and if you don't like it - go fuck yourself. No, everything is decided by a committee and nobody takes personal responsibility. At the same time personal responsibility for everything that happens in your life is the key to maturity. Management of risk, not aversion, should be the focus of life education.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:42 am 
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Please read all of this in a tone of friendly conversation, which is all it is...
Quote:
Bluntly, Yes. What I would do differently than what I did previously, is that I would NOT ever go over 400 to 500mg per week total; and I would never go under 100mg per week ever. Beyond that, my wife and I have an agreement - at 60, she gets to resume smoking - unfiltered Malboro's; and I get to go the life extension clinic.
That's very interesting, thank you. Did you start because of a low reading or purely to improve performance? The deal sounds legit. I remember when I first heard about TRT, I thought, "man, when I'm 40 I'm going ON." Now I'm 43 and it's like, "man, when I'm 50 I'm going ON." LOL Realistically, I probably never well, and also realistically, I cannot think of a single reason not to. I guess it's a combination of being a chicken and having some misguided ideas about right and wrong.
Quote:
I would have no reservations if my children decided to use, again, in moderation. Nothing to excess. Anything in excess, is just that - excess. Quarterly blood draws with all pertinent panels. Annual physicals. Stay in touch with the blood pressure to make sure it's not out of hand. Had a discussion with my eldest and her use of marijuana a few weeks ago. I bluntly told her that once it's legal in our state, my insomnia will disappear. And I told her that I felt it was perfectly fine to use it once or twice a week to take the edge off. But never let it become a thing of dependence. Again, I am a big believer in nothing to dependence and nothing to excess - ever.
Honestly, I would have a hard time with that. I know all people experiment--or more than experiment--but I've seen so many lives lost or utterly shattered by drugs. Easily a couple of dozen dead or in jail. But then again, I've been around. Certainly I would lay the accent on, "it's better not to, but if you're going to, don't be a fucking dumbass."
Quote:
The concept of hobbyists is not sustainable. It's a life style. Just like eating for performance. Just like staying fit for life.
This is where I'm getting off the bus. Anything you don't get paid for is just a hobby, doesn't matter if it's your "passion". That to me is hippy bullshit. Maybe I've OD'd on "da jiu-jitsu lifestyle" but I'm not a samurai, I'm not gonna grow up to be an MMA champion, I just do it because I like choking people and wearing these fabulous pajamas. What we do--lifting heavy or grappling--it's not about fitness, it's not a lifestyle, it's probably not healthy at all. And when I look at it like that, I've never been able to tell myself it's worth it to tamper with my endocrine system like that.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:56 am 
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Quote:
RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.
Both of these assumptions are incomplete.
I'm assuming that the assumptions are: (i) pros do it for the money, and (ii) hobbyists have no such tangible reason. I ask just so I'm not wasting time on a misunderstanding.

Quote:
Pros do not do it for the money...In these niche sports, they begin as hobbyists that discover a talent or a responsiveness level that puts them on a higher level. These are the great preponderance of folks using PED's.

The narrow band of pros and Olympic hopefuls using PED's are not even in the same category. These are medical interventions meaning...well planned, researched and administered by professional. The doping programs of even the top amateur cycling teams in Europe are well beyond the sophistication of most professional athletes in the NFL.
I admit I was thinking about major league sports: football, soccer, basketball, baseball, hockey where success translates into millions, sometimes hundreds of millions. I would not be surprised at the level of advancement in amateur cycling though I am surprised that you are saying they are ahead of the big leagues. Bicycle people are generally autistic freaks so I guess I believe you.
Quote:
The second incomplete understanding is one you already know. In BJJ, there is blue belt level understanding and there are deeper levels of understanding to be had. To achieve these requires sacrifice and a willingness to do those things which are neither "normal" nor "healthy"...they require you to do things outside of the scope of what most people will tolerate from a pain standpoint, from a health standpoint, from a philosophical standpoint. When your sports "require" exogenous substances to break above purple belt (for lack of a better analogy) there is a culture of tolerance which develops. It is not outlier activity anymore than drug use among rock stars is outlier activity. It's part of the culture like accepting cauliflower ear is part of the culture of wrestling. You mitigate the risk as best you can, but you do not fuss about it. This is part of the game..Hobbyists...even bad ones want to be part of that game.
I see that, for sure. I might, at least at times, feel like it is better to take a step back from these elective "cultures" rather than sacrifice ones health trying to be part of a community where it is a basic necessity. Not too many professional wrestlers retire to a long life of good health, wealth, and happy memories. But I do see what you are saying, don't get me wrong. I just think that for 99% of those hobbyist wannabe's they would be better off with a more realistic self appraisal and a recalibration of goals.
Quote:
And frankly, it's fucking fun. It FEELS amazing to change the basic moving parts of your biology in palpable way. Anyone who's lost or gained a great deal of weight, gotten tattoos or piercings, done a diet or lifestyle makeover can attest to the incredibly powerful stimulus that comes from changing the meat suit you're wearing. Sadly, most people will skip the slam dunk changes that come form diet in favor of "magical" PED's but honesty, having done both, user experience is the same. Focus dedication sacrifice..results. PED's are no different in this way.
Reaper always says every program works until it doesn't. My experience is every drug is fun until it isn't. Needle parks aren't full of people having fun.
Quote:
Honestly, once you've played in deep water, PED's are nor more troubling than downing a Vicodin with a Bourbon...yeah, you're not supposed to do that. But it's not remotely the risk people play it up to be and the effects are probably more subtle and ..it is fun. Part of that fun, is taking control of the moving pieces as best you can. Whether this the result of full on drug piggery which is risky or whether it's deliberate risk assessed small measures like RBSG and I are describing...it feels good and it works.
I believe that last part, and have no basis or desire to argue against it. A life without risks is not at all desirable, but neither is willful disregard for the value of natural good health.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:58 am 
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As for the Son or Daughter question....in my house we have had an open door policy of discussing ANY and all drugs. It's called "the drug talk", it includes my user reports and required reading. I am 100% supportive of their wise use of rec.pharma including PED's. I have been blunt to the point of tedious on these matters. For those who know me IRL, that's a pretty damn big spread of drugs to discuss. Based on their reaction to the "the talk" I doubt they will crack a beer until they are in their 20's

In my mind, titration of risk is skill needed to live a skillful and enjoyable life. This is 100% a responsibility as a parent...whether it's guns, table saws, or pharma, I pull no punches in discussing pros and cons
100% agree here with being honest with kids about sex, booze, drugs, violence, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:48 am 
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RBSG, knowing what you know now, would you still sauce? And if so, would you do it differently? And finally, would you want your son/daughter to do so?

I have zero moral qualms with people who do use PEDs, but I do wonder about the hobbyists. With professionals, the money is the difference, but with hobbyists...why? That said, I'm not anyone's judge so don't take this as a criticism.
Both of these assumptions are incomplete.
I'm assuming that the assumptions are: (i) pros do it for the money, and (ii) hobbyists have no such tangible reason. I ask just so I'm not wasting time on a misunderstanding.

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Pros do not do it for the money...In these niche sports, they begin as hobbyists that discover a talent or a responsiveness level that puts them on a higher level. These are the great preponderance of folks using PED's.

The narrow band of pros and Olympic hopefuls using PED's are not even in the same category. These are medical interventions meaning...well planned, researched and administered by professional. The doping programs of even the top amateur cycling teams in Europe are well beyond the sophistication of most professional athletes in the NFL.
I admit I was thinking about major league sports: football, soccer, basketball, baseball, hockey where success translates into millions, sometimes hundreds of millions. I would not be surprised at the level of advancement in amateur cycling though I am surprised that you are saying they are ahead of the big leagues. Bicycle people are generally autistic freaks so I guess I believe you.
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The second incomplete understanding is one you already know. In BJJ, there is blue belt level understanding and there are deeper levels of understanding to be had. To achieve these requires sacrifice and a willingness to do those things which are neither "normal" nor "healthy"...they require you to do things outside of the scope of what most people will tolerate from a pain standpoint, from a health standpoint, from a philosophical standpoint. When your sports "require" exogenous substances to break above purple belt (for lack of a better analogy) there is a culture of tolerance which develops. It is not outlier activity anymore than drug use among rock stars is outlier activity. It's part of the culture like accepting cauliflower ear is part of the culture of wrestling. You mitigate the risk as best you can, but you do not fuss about it. This is part of the game..Hobbyists...even bad ones want to be part of that game.
I see that, for sure. I might, at least at times, feel like it is better to take a step back from these elective "cultures" rather than sacrifice ones health trying to be part of a community where it is a basic necessity. Not too many professional wrestlers retire to a long life of good health, wealth, and happy memories. But I do see what you are saying, don't get me wrong. I just think that for 99% of those hobbyist wannabe's they would be better off with a more realistic self appraisal and a recalibration of goals.
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And frankly, it's fucking fun. It FEELS amazing to change the basic moving parts of your biology in palpable way. Anyone who's lost or gained a great deal of weight, gotten tattoos or piercings, done a diet or lifestyle makeover can attest to the incredibly powerful stimulus that comes from changing the meat suit you're wearing. Sadly, most people will skip the slam dunk changes that come form diet in favor of "magical" PED's but honesty, having done both, user experience is the same. Focus dedication sacrifice..results. PED's are no different in this way.
Reaper always says every program works until it doesn't. My experience is every drug is fun until it isn't. Needle parks aren't full of people having fun.
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Honestly, once you've played in deep water, PED's are nor more troubling than downing a Vicodin with a Bourbon...yeah, you're not supposed to do that. But it's not remotely the risk people play it up to be and the effects are probably more subtle and ..it is fun. Part of that fun, is taking control of the moving pieces as best you can. Whether this the result of full on drug piggery which is risky or whether it's deliberate risk assessed small measures like RBSG and I are describing...it feels good and it works.
I believe that last part, and have no basis or desire to argue against it. A life without risks is not at all desirable, but neither is willful disregard for the value of natural good health.
I find it unpleasant to see we are not far apart on this.

A couple thoughts.

Endurance athletes in general are much further ahead in terms of this stuff. ALSO...this is bif and I probably did not make this point well enough at all. Big sports are more talent driven. Single silo sports-pure strength, pure endurance are driven to a greater degree for MOST people, by effort and mental toughness. These can be learned, drugs can help. Baseball requires huge amounts of work...but talent makes a bigger difference I think. Drugs cant do shit about talent. So the relative effect of them is lower (think longevity) and the need for them is lower than say in cycling etc.
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see that, for sure. I might, at least at times, feel like it is better to take a step back from these elective "cultures" rather than sacrifice ones health trying to be part of a community where it is a basic necessity. Not too many professional wrestlers retire to a long life of good health, wealth, and happy memories. But I do see what you are saying, don't get me wrong. I just think that for 99% of those hobbyist wannabe's they would be better off with a more realistic self appraisal and a recalibration of goals.

No debate here. What's good v. bad and sacrifice are relative questions. But I refuse to go there when it comes to what "wannabees" should do. Anyone who's dedicated themselves to anything has had to drift that line between reasonable pursuit and morbid self attention. For me, I have more respect for those who may be delusional but will expose themselves to humiliation and defeat than those who would eschew risks for a whole other set of dopamine reward loops based on smugness. I'm not casting you in that lot but I'm keenly aware there are those among us who fall prey to that aspect of physical culture. I look at all of thi as basically just a form of bodymod. and like anyhting else, there is a skill to using the tools. So, for me, it's not a question of should or shouldn't is whether one is using the tools and taking risks mindfully.

For overall health, no doubt, simply poking yourself with a needle has risk (more than a little) and one can choose to live a very fulfilling life in which most risk is mitigated. So the question for each person, what risk? and based on what information? How do we presume to know the risks and what' our process for thinking them through? Most people, even very long time users do not think very deeply on this at all. We tend to think in this all or nothing clean or juiced framework and it's nothing like that. IME, the risks of Steroids are misunderstood possibly worse than the risk of injectable opiates. Having done both, I'd still say, avoid liquor.

I get asked for advice on this subject frequently because I'm very open and deadly honest about what I have done and what I do now. 9:10 I advise people to avoid entirely. If it's really a question of "should" then no..you shouldn't. If it's a question of HOW? then we can talk a bit more. I am also very conservative, the numbers RBSG is looking at might even be a shade high for my risk reward analysis. More troubling, I think there are a great many factors people wont even touch...the mental side effects, how to effectively titrate, how to adjust your expectations, how to talk to your doctor. ..... It's complicated and am far less cavalier than I was even 5 years ago but I think these conversations are really important. As I lead with, I think even folks like yourself who have spent decades in sport and around physical culture have misconceptions that could only really be cured by trying the things..and that's not a viable option. So, open blunt, direct conversations free of judgement, like this one, are important.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:48 pm 
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That's very interesting, thank you. Did you start because of a low reading or purely to improve performance? The deal sounds legit. I remember when I first heard about TRT, I thought, "man, when I'm 40 I'm going ON." Now I'm 43 and it's like, "man, when I'm 50 I'm going ON." LOL Realistically, I probably never well, and also realistically, I cannot think of a single reason not to. I guess it's a combination of being a chicken and having some misguided ideas about right and wrong.

I did my first cycle when I was involved in a car wreck where I was struck forcibly from behind and had some serious whip lash while in the middle of my season and three weeks out from a major event in my sport. A good friend had me take a cc of test and cc of deca to "help me heal." And it worked.

From there, I did about six more 12 week cycles of 2 years before I stopped. All with Post Cycle Therapy and real attention to what I ate, cardio and a strict adherence to "living healthy." I was 30 when the accident happened. I was 32 when I stopped doing the waves of up and down. The up and down part, I found, was very difficult on my body.

Completely respect your lack of decisiveness. it's not for everyone and I respect that. That falls in line with my libertarian beliefs. You do what want and I'll do what I want. And I won't judge you in any way shape or form. I'll support and not persuade one way or the other.

I perhaps miswrote previously about the levels of use, if I were to do it again. I would never go below 100mg a week ever; and if I were to titrate up, I would not go over 400 to 500mg per week. This would most likely be injectables only; perhaps, some low dose anavar, assuming it's real. Big assumption in this day. And the length of the time I would titrate up would either be 16 or 20 weeks. And I would spend double that amount of time at 100mg afterward before I would consider titrating up again. I truly believe that long, slow and low is the best way to do this - if you're going to do it. All the while, doing blood work, taking blood pressure regularly, body temperatures in the morning and adhering to the best diet possible.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I get asked for advice on this subject frequently because I'm very open and deadly honest about what I have done and what I do now. 9:10 I advise people to avoid entirely. If it's really a question of "should" then no..you shouldn't. If it's a question of HOW? then we can talk a bit more. I am also very conservative, the numbers RBSG is looking at might even be a shade high for my risk reward analysis. More troubling, I think there are a great many factors people wont even touch...the mental side effects, how to effectively titrate, how to adjust your expectations, how to talk to your doctor. ..... It's complicated and am far less cavalier than I was even 5 years ago but I think these conversations are really important. As I lead with, I think even folks like yourself who have spent decades in sport and around physical culture have misconceptions that could only really be cured by trying the things..and that's not a viable option. So, open blunt, direct conversations free of judgement, like this one, are important.
This!!

I get asked about this subject very often. And I too am very open about it. Agreed, it's never "should" it's "how" to which I am way more comfortable discussing. Should is a personal decision and a cost/benefit analysis must be performed.

Mental side effects - my personal observation; this is something that is way more pronounced than what anyone will ever realized and something I wish was fucking studied like all the other crap that's been studied (liver enzymes, kidney impacts, anything other than "roid rage."). In my experience, increased testosterone has a significant mental stimulus that often goes undiscussed. I say that, because my social anxiety dissipated when I went "on." Further, it has been completely "in check" since I started HRT. Everyone responds differently, but I have found that if anyone has a latent dominant emotion/state of mind - it becomes more dominant. For example, an asshole becomes a raging asshole; a overly sensitive person becomes even more sensitive. To be blunt, I would have reservations advising someone who is truly loves fighting/grappling to go down this route; to me, that is aggression 101 and to adding test may only make the reason you do, even more pronounced. Just something to ponder in looking at the big picture.

I don't know if what I just wrote makes sense. But I have been around 100s of people who do this and I've observed it. Confidence increases. With that comes what I have described above.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Good words from RBSG and BD...I hope I am asking questions that other people also want to hear answers to. The hit count on this thread makes me think so.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:57 pm 
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I find it unpleasant to see we are not far apart on this.
I can haz brojobs?
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No debate here. What's good v. bad and sacrifice are relative questions. But I refuse to go there when it comes to what "wannabees" should do. Anyone who's dedicated themselves to anything has had to drift that line between reasonable pursuit and morbid self attention. For me, I have more respect for those who may be delusional but will expose themselves to humiliation and defeat than those who would eschew risks for a whole other set of dopamine reward loops based on smugness. I'm not casting you in that lot but I'm keenly aware there are those among us who fall prey to that aspect of physical culture. I look at all of thi as basically just a form of bodymod. and like anyhting else, there is a skill to using the tools. So, for me, it's not a question of should or shouldn't is whether one is using the tools and taking risks mindfully.
I am definitely in that lot, or at least have been in the past, to my detriment. But I also looked at my native athleticism, my desire to accomplish other goals--like a successful career and a family I can provide for--and decided to keep my involvement in sports at a hobbyist level. To even compete in a national level tournament takes thousands of dollars just for travel, accommodations, food, etc. when you live in Hawaii. Plus the time spent training, the injuries, the complete lack of remuneration...it all added up to me as a stupid investment, and I am nothing if not a "fuck you, pay me" mercenary personality. For a long time I honestly thought guys doing it were stupid, and justified the attitude with my material success. Now, as I am a little bit older and (maybe) wiser, I see no reason to judge at all, and am content to appreciate the way different people weigh their options.
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For overall health, no doubt, simply poking yourself with a needle has risk (more than a little) and one can choose to live a very fulfilling life in which most risk is mitigated. So the question for each person, what risk? and based on what information? How do we presume to know the risks and what' our process for thinking them through? Most people, even very long time users do not think very deeply on this at all. We tend to think in this all or nothing clean or juiced framework and it's nothing like that. IME, the risks of Steroids are misunderstood possibly worse than the risk of injectable opiates. Having done both, I'd still say, avoid liquor.
I definitely believe that alcohol is probably the most pernicious substance of all and nobody bats an eyelash. I have no trouble believing that a couple of bottles of whiskey a week is more dangerous than PEDs.
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It's complicated and am far less cavalier than I was even 5 years ago but I think these conversations are really important. As I lead with, I think even folks like yourself who have spent decades in sport and around physical culture have misconceptions that could only really be cured by trying the things..and that's not a viable option. So, open blunt, direct conversations free of judgement, like this one, are important.
Last question, and it relates to the "everything is fun for a while" idea. How much of your less cavalier attitude is related to the fact that with each passing year, you come closer to the time when you have to pay the piper? I.e., when any ill effects will make themselves felt?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Last question, and it relates to the "everything is fun for a while" idea. How much of your less cavalier attitude is related to the fact that with each passing year, you come closer to the time when you have to pay the piper? I.e., when any ill effects will make themselves felt?
This is a hard one to answer. I don't trust my own narrative in many ways for the simple reason, I have not experienced the negative consequences a lot of folks have. I am at an age where the bill IS due and I'm paying as I go. That bears unpacking...

I have and am willing to try any rec.pharma compounds that seem amusing and I have had a long positive track record doing so. I have only had a handful of bad experiences. T200 is the only other guy I know who's done injectable opiates and said...meh..that's cool..what else? I chock this up to the luck of draw.

Also, I also have had a near total relief from depression (brought on by pituitary damage) by using TRT. So I'm fully sold.

But the real thing that has made me less cavalier is not the danger of the drugs, it's the wildly inconsistent benefits. High responders seem to explode with growth and strength, others of us get tangible pluses on par with getting better sleep and eating right.

I'd say the biggest factor at least consciously, that makes me more circumspect is that about 3 years ago, I decided to drop a couple weight classes and go all in on healthier practices. I booted the cardio WAY up, I corrected diet, I quit drinking entirely. I made sleep my number one focus other than training. The effects of these interventions far outstripped any steroid cycle I'd tried. ...I added a very little bit of PED's to this mix and had fantastic results. This experience, alongside watching people absolutely melt down from the mental sides, or their physical health by going ALL IN on whatever (I saw one grappler, two Strongmen and at least two powerlifters have major health scares) while I out hustled them 20 years older on "baby doses". This told me, it's far too complicated to take any of it at face value. Really, I needed to see for myself what was possible and also reasonable. So...yeah. I'm less cavalier. I am very sure of certain best practices, like RBSG...but in general recommend caution and using your health as a guide. If you do this, it's not that there's some hidden disaster around every corner. You track how your body responds and keep things in the lane. BP, Lipids, HR, sleep, recovery...all of it is tracked in away that is far more deliberate than gen pop.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Last question, and it relates to the "everything is fun for a while" idea. How much of your less cavalier attitude is related to the fact that with each passing year, you come closer to the time when you have to pay the piper? I.e., when any ill effects will make themselves felt?
This brings me to the reason why I stopped doing heavier doses or cycling as I did for the two years that I did.

At the time I was using heavier doses, I had a traumatic event; my tricep tendon ruptured and had to be surgically reattached. I was using a good dose of winstrol at the time. That's what most of the crossfit ladies use and the pussy crossfit men do too (they need to balance the test/winny ratio but alas they normally fail at that). It's almost impossible to tolerate injecting it because the solution is in water and the crystals are wide; so it gets stuck trying to pin yourself. However, winstrol is one injectable that you can drink. Anyway, it is known for drying out and causing joints to ache - especially when you don't use enough test/tren/deca to counter act that issue. Yep. Had that. Right arm was aching fiercely before the rupture happened. And the rupture happened because I pushed through the injury.

Learned some very important lessons - 1) don't use winstrol; 2) don't push through injuries; 3) train around aches; 4) do more smr/yoga/recuperative things.

So, I've already paid the piper for that one.

ON HRT, I've been able to make slow regular progress despite aging; nothing traumatic has occurred since this incident. I've had a knee scope and a rotator cuff repair that was from years and years of wear (who would have guessed cross cut sawing was extremely abusive to the rotator cuff); but otherwise, I've been blessed with good physical health.

To me, it's just like anything else. We accept that we are aging; We accept that we cannot do what we did when we were younger; we accept that we must be more diligent with recuperative things; we accept that we absolutely must keep ourselves as stress free as we can, and sleep as optimally as we can.

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