Vibration stretching

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Sangoma
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Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:18 am

Fuck StrongFirst and Steve Freides, for deleting my question and slowing down my connection to the forum.

Vibration stretching. The idea makes sense in the following way:

1. The stretch is limited by the strength of the corresponding muscle. According to Tom Kurtz (Flexibility Express) everyone has the potential to do splits, but it is the central nervous system that limits the range.

2. Best stretching methods are those aimed at strengthening the muscle, in particular PNF - Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation. Also called post-isometric relaxation. You get as low as you can to splits then contract the muscles as if trying to "pinch" the floor and get yourself up, hold the contraction for some time - then relax. Repeat.

3. Vibration may accelerate this because it activates Golgi reflex. The muscle, in addition to being contracted voluntarily, responds to sharp impulses of vibration and produces additional contraction. Which, according to one source in the 1980s, resulted in getting to splits faster.

Recently there is somewhat increased interest in this topic in Russia, couple fo youtubes here:



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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:34 pm

Ok, that is pretty intriguing.

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:02 pm

Very neat. When the guy holds his open hand up is it saying it's five minutes later?

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:46 pm

Yes. He says that's after 5 minutes of work.

To be fair, studies talk of short and long term effects of vibration training on flexibility. I will post some later.

I am very tempted to try.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Turdacious » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:47 pm

I learned about this on a West Texas camping trip. It wasn't what I expected.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Mickey O'neil » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:07 am

This is pretty interesting.

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:24 am

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:46 pm
I am very tempted to try.
How? This isn't the sort of thing you can rig an orbit buffer to do, and force plates that one could modify are generally quite expensive.

How would you DIY this?

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:50 am

Just a cheap vibration platform from ebay. Some of them have adjustable frequency. It has to be of sufficient amplitude, but otherwise I don't think there is some secret set of parameters. Dildos, on the other hand, can be fine tuned, so maybe I should give it a thought...
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm

So Pavel counldn't personally profit from your question so they deleted it?

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:52 pm

I didn't realize the eBay options had gotten so cheap. If you experiment please document.

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:43 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm
So Pavel counldn't personally profit from your question so they deleted it?
Seriously, I don't get it. Nothing stops them from selling some VibroPavel "for super-fast tactical flexibility". My suspicion it's something to do with questions about Pavel's past.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:54 am

And off current topic:
Get ready for Q&D by Pavel

You can't deny the art of brand building (too bad for John Du Cane). I bet the next book will sell 10,000 thousand copies before release.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:55 pm

Long ago we were told that allegedly Pavel was a practitioner or instructor for some sort of dance discipline, and that is why his initial offerings were all flexibility stuff, then abs. The original kettlebell stuff, his RKC book and vids, and even early certs, were pretty apparent that he was maybe one or two steps in front of the people getting certified. To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence that turned up he was ever a master of sport in kettlebell lifting, but we all stopped paying attention to that sort of thing.

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:42 am

Well, I heard from someone who met Pavel that his mother was a balerina. Which fits with his story of being from Riga, the capital city of Latvia, then one of the Soviet republics. It's National Opera had very strong ballet group, and couple of famous Bolshoy soloists started their careers in Riga. I was born and grew up in Riga, hence my question to Pavel. Second part of the story was that his dad was the officer in the military.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by terra » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:07 am

Ill admit I only watched second video for the the yoga girl.

It might work... Maybe more out of fucking around with your proprioception by overloading the lemniscus tract in the spinal cord (educated guess).
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:57 am

I am a clinician and like the Black Box approach: do this - get that. Explanations, especially those involving neurology, make me nervous.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by terra » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:57 pm

Im a clinician to but don’t have the privilege of your profession’s assumed cultural authority. Its normal for me to have to over-examine and explain everything that occurs between ‘do this’ and ‘get that’ so as to be taken seriously. Having said that, who knows why that works..

Probably just Placebo...

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by newguy » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:28 pm

Question -outside professions that might require extended flexibility, is their any known benefit to being uber "flexible"?

And kind of a related question - I really enjoy stretching. I think stretching, especially within a movement based discipline such as yoga, is a really good thing to do. But I'm starting to think that stretching isn't good because it gets you more flexible. The flexible part is a by product. I think stretching is good because it allows for breath control, releases tension in both the mind and body, etc. etc.

So here is the question, is it possible that things like this give you more flexibility but without the benefits of "stretching?"
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by terra » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:15 am

My view is that an aberrant pattern of physical tension (passive, active or perceptual) resulting in limited ROM and/or dyskinesia is indicative of a bigger underlying problem.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:49 am

terra wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:57 pm
Im a clinician to but don’t have the privilege of your profession’s assumed cultural authority. Its normal for me to have to over-examine and explain everything that occurs between ‘do this’ and ‘get that’ so as to be taken seriously. Having said that, who knows why that works..

Probably just Placebo...

\:D/
Everything comes with a price, including the authority of my profession. Folks come to us to get fixed quickly, even though a lot of the time it's a band aid tactic. Long term advice generally doesn't work with my patients, and most of them don't care to learn about their condition. You, on the other hand, are blessed with the patients who are prepared to work for their cure, even if it takes long time, and they will follow the diet and exercise regime you give them. As well as listen to your theories of disease, pain and healing (no sarcasm here). The corollary for us, the allopaths, is the punitive knee jerk reaction when something undesirable happens. I think you get less of that.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:47 pm

newguy wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:28 pm
Question -outside professions that might require extended flexibility, is their any known benefit to being uber "flexible"?
“Uber flexible” is mostly downside as muscle tension does a lot to protect joints and connective tissue at far ranges of motion. Taking it away is a problem.

OTOH, getting/maintaining a young athlete’s ROM is mostly positive, but extremely boring.

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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by terra » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:22 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:49 am
terra wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:57 pm
Im a clinician to but don’t have the privilege of your profession’s assumed cultural authority. Its normal for me to have to over-examine and explain everything that occurs between ‘do this’ and ‘get that’ so as to be taken seriously. Having said that, who knows why that works..

Probably just Placebo...

\:D/
Everything comes with a price, including the authority of my profession. Folks come to us to get fixed quickly, even though a lot of the time it's a band aid tactic. Long term advice generally doesn't work with my patients, and most of them don't care to learn about their condition. You, on the other hand, are blessed with the patients who are prepared to work for their cure, even if it takes long time, and they will follow the diet and exercise regime you give them. As well as listen to your theories of disease, pain and healing (no sarcasm here). The corollary for us, the allopaths, is the punitive knee jerk reaction when something undesirable happens. I think you get less of that.
LOL... (actually it was more an incredulous snort)

I am not ‘blessed’ with patients who are prepared to work for their cure. The few patients who grace me with their skeptical apathetically low expectations from life are almost always hand-me-downs from the band aid approach, and only come to me as a ‘last resort’. They are still convinced by the cultural authority of the medical industry in the existence of a magical quick fix where-in they need only play the part of passive sufferer, and they then expect me to deliver said miraculous restoration ASAP.

The fact that they are now paying out of their own pocket combined with the weekly front page news that demonises my professional moniker means they believe they have the combined right to both expect a miracle, whilst also treating me with the utmost contempt and distrust.

...I WORK my fucking arse off to educate/cajole/inspire/beg the better part of them to see reason and understand the truth about nature and healing. Once I manage to have them grudging shirk their prejudice and contain their misconceptions for a moment, I quickly sneak in under the radar of their supposedly educated mind, and team up with that innate intelligence shared by all sentient beings to help it reorganise to a higher level of coherence... AKA facilitate their own amazing healing abilities, which lay waiting, just beneath the surface of the bullshit we call the limits of matter.

If it works they get the credit, if it doesn’t I wear the blame. And no, they are never prepared to take the time for it to work, I make up the difference for them.

My reward is coming home, after expenses, with a less than taxable income... But also a strange comfort that perhaps I’m privileged to be part of a timeless process where the collective unconscious may only be able to evolve through the triumphs of the individual being... Maybe.

Not sure why but I continue but I imagine it’s similar to what drives a starving artist who endlessly chisels at stone, trying to capture his vision of the masterpiece that lies within.
The patient gets their miracle, I get my art.

I honestly believe you didn’t know that’s how it is. Now you do.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by Sangoma » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 am

I stand corrected. The corollary - write a book. Self help techniques for back pain. There isn't much good material around.
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Re: Vibration stretching

Post by terra » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:47 am

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 am
I stand corrected. The corollary - write a book. Self help techniques for back pain. There isn't much good material around.
I just reread my diatribe and it seemed a little ‘shouty’... Please don’t take it that way. Despondent would be a better tone.

Regarding writing a book for self help, the real gold is getting people to become consciously aware of where and how the limitations are playing out in the body (the unconscious lens). ..And how that is effecting the conscious perception of internal and external environment. Which requires a fair amount of Face to face (..or face to spine as the case may be).

It’s basically giving someone a highly focused and personalised course of self study, during which the system clears a load of secondary conditions (aka symptoms) of Physically Retained Stress. Not something a book can fully deliver.

But thanks for your thoughts Smet, I appreciate them.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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