Of Pistols and BW Squats

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JasonC
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Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by JasonC » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:33 pm

What's the IG Hive Mind's opinion in 2019 of pistols? I see a lot of them in training logs.

Also, Hindu squats vs. flat-footed air squats? What does Rudnev use?
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by SubClaw » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:37 pm

BD, apparently, loves them. :isdashit:

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by newguy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:23 pm

I don't think there is any reason to choose between flat footed vs. hindu. I like them both. Hindu squats keep my knees loose (in the good way). They work the lungs well and develop good endurance and strength. For my body type they involve the quads a lot.

Flat footed squats I do slowly. I can't get as quick a cadence as I can for hindu squats. I use them for mobility. They keep my hips loose (in the good way.) I tend to do them more slowly or at least smoothly and the reps are low. 5 low slow flat footed squats. Shake out.

It has taken me years to get to the point where I can sink into a squat, stay flat footed, and just chill. I put a lot of work into that. My body type does not just sit like that.

As I continue to age and watch other people aging, I think a vital step is to develop and maintain the ability to sink down into a squat.

The only weighted exercise I found that helps this is KB goblet squats. Which I need to start doing again.

I can't do pistols and never will.

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:31 pm

Flat footed, Hindu, pistol, and Bulgarians are all legitimate exercises that have a place in some workouts.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by nafod » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:18 pm

The best squat exercise I ever learned is the goblet squat where you stand with your toes against the wall. Was it Shaf that brought it up? Impossible to do it wrong without falling backward, making it very back friendly.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:33 pm

I have never understood why people act as if squatting is some technical challenge. If you can sit down in a chair and get back up you can squat.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:19 am

Rudnev considers 100 BW squats equal 1 km run. Done at the end of GS workout it sure feels like it.

My personal favourite variation - double KB FSQ. Solid core builder.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by newguy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:33 pm
I have never understood why people act as if squatting is some technical challenge. If you can sit down in a chair and get back up you can squat.
Depends. A deep BW squat? Not so much like sitting on a chair. When I sit on a chair my knees never extend past my toes. In fact, if the chair wasn't there I would just fall on my ass.

A deep " asian style sitting on heels BW squat needs a whole different set of muscles and flexibility to happen.

I think there is certainly a lifestyle, and a cultural, and a genetic aspect to it. If I ever had it, I lost it with a lifetime of sitting in a desk and it's been a lot of work getting it back.

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Turdacious » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:57 am

I'm digging the latest FT hip hinge variation on the squat, especially the empasis on the hamstrings and inner quads. I need to put hindu squats back into the mix for lower legs.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Really Big Strong Guy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:57 pm

I've recently fallen in love with Bulgarian split squats. I can't put my foot on a bench though. I use the bar pad in a power rack and then throw a yoga mat over it. First time I've ever found a use for a bar pad actually. :-k Bodyweight has gotten too easy, so I've started jumping and doing weighted versions. Really hammer the quads and glutes. And I feel it greatly in the hammies too when I go really deep.

I've never tried pistols. I must admit I've always avoided uni-lateral work until I started doing Bulgarians. Now, I am a believer. Will need to lose more weight before I try a pistol though.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Wild Bill » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:17 pm

Shrimp squat is also good variation. Different balance.

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:27 pm

newguy wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:33 pm
I have never understood why people act as if squatting is some technical challenge. If you can sit down in a chair and get back up you can squat.
Depends. A deep BW squat? Not so much like sitting on a chair. When I sit on a chair my knees never extend past my toes. In fact, if the chair wasn't there I would just fall on my ass.

A deep " asian style sitting on heels BW squat needs a whole different set of muscles and flexibility to happen.

I think there is certainly a lifestyle, and a cultural, and a genetic aspect to it. If I ever had it, I lost it with a lifetime of sitting in a desk and it's been a lot of work getting it back.
I dunno man, I'm not you but that type of language is exactly what the problem is IMHO. You don't need to "think" about squatting, you're body is literally evolved to do it.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by newguy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:26 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:27 pm
newguy wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:33 pm
I have never understood why people act as if squatting is some technical challenge. If you can sit down in a chair and get back up you can squat.
Depends. A deep BW squat? Not so much like sitting on a chair. When I sit on a chair my knees never extend past my toes. In fact, if the chair wasn't there I would just fall on my ass.

A deep " asian style sitting on heels BW squat needs a whole different set of muscles and flexibility to happen.

I think there is certainly a lifestyle, and a cultural, and a genetic aspect to it. If I ever had it, I lost it with a lifetime of sitting in a desk and it's been a lot of work getting it back.
I dunno man, I'm not you but that type of language is exactly what the problem is IMHO. You don't need to "think" about squatting, you're body is literally evolved to do it.
Maybe since you've done jujitsu consistently and for a long time you've got a lot better flexibility than I do?

Because for me, a flat footed BW squat is something I had learn. I mean I can squat. But to do it flat footed - like the Asian sitting squat - has been hard going for me.

Even now I can't just get up and drop into it. I need to work my way into it. I can get flat footed parallel no problem. I can drop deep with the heels coming up no problem. But to get low and get those heels flat is a bitch.

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:44 pm

Fair enough, people are different. But I stand by the idea that these things aren't huge technical challenges. It's not like you need a coach, just a little practice.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:14 pm

The PT at my gym works with a number of NFL athletes and uses pistols as part of their knee rehab, and for knee rehab with the general population.

He only has 2 rules from what I can tell:

1) Don't go below 90 degrees - he usually uses a plyo box, which they sit back and on to, then come back up from. Sometimes with a kettlebell for extra weight.
2) Don't let the knee buckle inwards.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:10 pm

I have a friend who cannot squat flat footed to save his life. And this guy is a high level squash and golf player. For me personally it has never been a problem, but I am a small guy. IN grade 10 one of my friends challenged me to do a pistol - I cranked ten from the first go, butt to the heel. So yes, different bodies are built for different things.

In regards to the two rules above - I think BW squat as low as possible is beneficial. And the actual technique is not as important with BW as when loaded.

It fucks me up when I see people struggling to get up from the squatting position - grabbing objects nearby or leaning on their knees etc. I fully agree with Fat Cat here: it is one of the basic movements of the human body, together with walking, crawling, sit-up, turning on the side, bending over etc.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:33 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:10 pm
I fully agree with Fat Cat
Mark this day on your calendars folks. :axe:
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:05 am

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:10 pm

In regards to the two rules above - I think BW squat as low as possible is beneficial. And the actual technique is not as important with BW as when loaded.
Don't know if you read what I wrote correctly. The advice was only in regards to pistols - not 2-legged squats. Now the PT might treat the same for 1-leg vs. 2-legs (and I've never seen him put an athlete into 1-leg or 2-leg squat past 90 degrees), but my anecdotal report only concerns 1-leg versions.

Cheers!
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by syaigh » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:43 pm

I think that we all need to do some heavy leg work, which can be of limited range of motion, whether it be deadlifts, squats, or leg presses. Personally, as a long-femured person, leg presses damage my knees. I also think we all need to do some single leg work. Lunges, split squats, one-legged deadlifts, etc. Finally, I think we all need to consider doing work that works the joints from top down and bottom up. Ignoring this and single leg work pretty much crippled me over time. Leg extensions, hamstring curls, and adductor/abductor work are all valuable.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Wild Bill » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:01 pm

syaigh wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:43 pm
Finally, I think we all need to consider doing work that works the joints from top down and bottom up. Ignoring this and single leg work pretty much crippled me over time.
Completely agree.
About week ago I decided to stop any single legged work, and doing pegtop instead.
It is really works joints from top down and bottom up :)

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:05 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:33 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:10 pm
I fully agree with Fat Cat
Mark this day on your calendars folks. :axe:
Shit :dense:
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:12 pm

Bram wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:05 am
Sangoma wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:10 pm

In regards to the two rules above - I think BW squat as low as possible is beneficial. And the actual technique is not as important with BW as when loaded.
Don't know if you read what I wrote correctly. The advice was only in regards to pistols - not 2-legged squats. Now the PT might treat the same for 1-leg vs. 2-legs (and I've never seen him put an athlete into 1-leg or 2-leg squat past 90 degrees), but my anecdotal report only concerns 1-leg versions.

Cheers!
Frankly - I disagree. One of the potential benefits of pistols is mobility, and I would go as hard as possible to exploit that. As I said, you can even twist and buckle somewhat; because a pistol is not loaded you will not risk injury as much. But then again, I am discussing the results of the study with N = Me.

Extending this theme, I think the most important in training and coaching is to have a holistic model. Chinese medicine and Chinese martial arts, for example, are based on some energy system that has never been demonstrated to actually exist. However, techniques and methods based on this concept work very well. So if a 90 degree pistol fits into a coaches overall system of principles and mobility is taken care of by other means - so be it. That's why I think it's problematic to comment on coaches' methods by watching his one session. Similar to quoting the Bible out of context.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Wild Bill » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:10 am

Good solution for flatfootedsquat position is to use internet in this position.
Any time you want to surf fb or ig, take yor smartphone, squat and surf as you please.

Two benefits. It improve squat position and shortened time wasting on internet :)

Im posting this sitting in that position :)

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:17 pm

Sangoma, here's a lengthy read on Knee Valgus (your knee collapsing inwards):

https://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-v ... on-drills/

From the link:

Why is Knee Valgus Dangerous?

Knee valgus can lead to patellofemoral (knee) pain, ACL tears, and iliotibial band syndrome.

-----
Here's an abstract:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3558618/

Results

We studied 5046 knees (881 valgus) from MOST and 5953 knees (1235 valgus) from OAI. In both studies, all strata of valgus malalignment including 1.1 to 3° valgus were associated with an increased risk of lateral disease progression. In knees without radiographic OA, valgus alignment above 3° was associated with incidence (for example in MOST, adjOR = 2.7 (95% 1.1, 6.8)). Valgus 3° or more was also associated with cartilage damage on MRI in knees without OA (for example in OAI, adjOR = 5.9 (95% CI, 1.3, 30.3)). We found a strong relation of valgus with progressive lateral meniscal damage.

Conclusions

Valgus malalignment increases the risk of knee OA x-ray progression, incidence and of lateral cartilage damage. It may cause these effects, in part, by increasing the risk of meniscal damage.
Last edited by Bram on Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:46 am

Bram, your reference is completely off. Vagus misalignment they are talking about is an anatomical one, not "buckling in" during squat, let alone one legged. And it was on people from MOST study, those with knee osteoarthritis or at high risk of developing it, 50 - 79 years old.
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