Of Pistols and BW Squats

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JasonC
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by JasonC » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:32 pm

Are pistols safe for knees? My knees are healthy (for 46) and I have a little experience with pistols, but I'll reluctantly resist the urge to do them again if they're one of those things where there's a risk that's not worth the reward.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:28 pm

Isn't it the little Fagin himself, Freido?
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Really Big Strong Guy » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:40 pm

JasonC wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:32 pm
Are pistols safe for knees? My knees are healthy (for 46) and I have a little experience with pistols, but I'll reluctantly resist the urge to do them again if they're one of those things where there's a risk that's not worth the reward.
I'm thinking the same thing intuitively. I'm 50. Have had 600 pounds+ on my back more times than I can count. And the thought of doing a pistol right now even though I've dropped a good 40 pounds over the last year is still beyond my reach I think. However, once I get another 20 pounds off, I might give it a whirl. At least start with the bench mentioned above.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:52 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:46 am
Bram, your reference is completely off. Vagus misalignment they are talking about is an anatomical one, not "buckling in" during squat, let alone one legged. And it was on people from MOST study, those with knee osteoarthritis or at high risk of developing it, 50 - 79 years old.
How about in the Bret Contreras link?
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:21 am

What do you mean?
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:20 am

Sangoma, here's a lengthy read on Knee Valgus (your knee collapsing inwards):

https://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-v ... on-drills/

From the link:

Why is Knee Valgus Dangerous?

Knee valgus can lead to patellofemoral (knee) pain, ACL tears, and iliotibial band syndrome.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:43 am

First of all, the syndrome is Genu Valgum, not "knee valgus", and as I said earlier, it refers to the anatomical abnormality, not buckling the knee inwards during squats. Second, while I am not saying that buckling the knees inward in squat is a good thing one line in the Contreras' article does not constitute evidence (and not based on any reference).

Most importantly though, it would be nice if you could read what I wrote with a little more attention:
As I said, you can even twist and buckle somewhat; because a pistol is not loaded you will not risk injury as much.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:23 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:43 am
First of all, the syndrome is Genu Valgum, not "knee valgus", and as I said earlier, it refers to the anatomical abnormality, not buckling the knee inwards during squats. Second, while I am not saying that buckling the knees inward in squat is a good thing one line in the Contreras' article does not constitute evidence (and not based on any reference).
https://www.jospt.org/doi/full/10.2519/jospt.2010.3337

"Excessive knee valgus has been shown to be related to diminished hip muscle strength (17,30,32,81) and has been implicated in contributing to numerous knee injuries, including anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injury (29) and patellofemoral joint dysfunction (58)"

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"It has been reported that hip adduction is the primary contributor to excessive dynamic knee valgus (30,80). As such, excessive hip adduction would be expected to strain the soft tissue restraints that limit knee valgus (ie, the medial collateral ligament, medial patellofemoral ligament, and ACL). As a transverse plane motion, hip internal rotation plays less of a role in the observed medial collapse of the lower extremity. However, internal rotation of the femur on a relatively fixed tibia would strain the structures that limit this motion (ie, the medial collateral ligament, lateral collateral ligament, and popliteus)."
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:27 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:43 am
As I said, you can even twist and buckle somewhat; because a pistol is not loaded you will not risk injury as much.
What's even your point here? That you advocate bad form SOMEWHAT, and it's not AS MUCH injurious as good form?

Or that you're not considering that a pistol for a 120lb pixie like yourself is not as much of a weight as for a 215lb barbarian like me, or a 250lb sea giant like others here?
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:38 am

Bram, are you slow? Just out of courtesy I will do it once more for you. Last couple of reps in a set to failure - not prefect. Because pistol is not loaded the consequence of imperfection - which often is the buckling of the knee - will not be as serious as when you squat with extra 100 kg or more on your back. Your favourite PT advocates pistols to parallel with the box under the ass - good for him. I have always done them to the bottom, with occasionally bad form at the end of the set and never got injured as the result of that. Is this different for larger guys? I would argue that not that much, because the size and strength of relevant musculature is propotionate to the body weight.

An advice: if you are not prepared to read an article in full and check its references - stay away from it. Again, out of courtesy I will demonstrate to you why it is important.

There are two references to the statement that excessive knee valgus "has been implicated in contributing to numerous knee injuries". Let's look at each.

The first one,Biomechanical measures of neuromuscular control and valgus loading of the knee predict anterior cruciate ligament injury risk in female athletes: a prospective study.
There were 205 female athletes in the high-risk sports of soccer, basketball, and volleyball prospectively measured for neuromuscular control...

CONCLUSION:
Knee motion and knee loading during a landing task are predictors of anterior cruciate ligament injury risk in female athletes.
I fail to see how landing mechanics in high impact activities is relevant to one legged squats.

Second one: The influence of altered lower-extremity kinematics on patellofemoral joint dysfunction: a theoretical perspective.
...With this in mind, interventions aimed at controlling hip and pelvic motion (proximal stability) and ankle/foot motion (distal stability) may be warranted and should be considered when treating persons with patellofemoral joint dysfunction. The purpose of this paper is to provide a biomechanical overview of how altered lower-extremity mechanics may influence the patellofemoral joint. By addressing these factors, better long-term treatment success and prevention may be achieved.
A theoretical perspective, the word "may" repeated three times in four lines. I don't have full text of this article; if you do and if it talks about one legged squats please let me know.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Bram » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:37 pm

I will agree with you on the fault that you poke in the last article, and in all the articles I referenced:

the correlation between dynamic knee valgus and the propensity for knee injuries does not have enough research behind it.

I actually went through a few pages of google searching and the over-arching theme in recent years in the literature, is that there just is not enough evidence to say yes or no either way.

I would love to provide some slam dunk evidence, but I can't.

That said, I try to be protective of my joints and the people I work with. As someone who has also done 10 rock-bottom pistols on both legs, it inherently feels like a stupid exercise to suggest to people or perform myself. If my co-worker has a method to use them as a leg strengthener, balance developer, etc. and he can repeatedly do it safely, and in working with a host of professional athletes as well as lay people (many of which are recovering from intense knee injuries), well I'd rather err on the side of his expertise, belief in the literature and experience in working with people....than in your belief in the literature and experience just working with yourself, who evidently has not suffered any knee injuries.

And to posh-posh it, might put someone who's health history is not the same as yours at greater risk.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by newguy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:42 am

But that is the age old difference between fitness professional and a party of one.

A fitness professional, someone who makes their living based on the advice and programs and exercise selection they give to people is going to be (or certainly should be) more cautious than someone who is training themselves for themselves. In your world (fitness professional) are you really going to see any noticeably less results if you have someone go to parallel vs a little deeper in the short term? Not really. And if a client does end up with less mobility, its not like it is something he or she will blame you for over the long term. But if they blow out their knee, whether your fault or not, you are the culprit.

Where someone like me, party of one, training for self by self.... I know my body. I know where I can go low. I know where I need to be cautious. And I can disregard at my own leisure. And when my back and knee and groin feel effed up. It's my own fault.

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by newguy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:45 am

For example. I've always been able to goblet squat low.

Until I couldn't. The last few times I've gone deep I've messed up my left groin. Why? I don't know. I just stopped goblet squatting for a while and now that I am reintegrating the movement, I go to about parallel. No deeper. And I do my BW squats as deep as I can.

But I don't have a coach I can blame and I have no one to blame for for their own life because I don't tell anyone what to do.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:35 am

Bram wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:37 pm
That said, I try to be protective of my joints and the people I work with. As someone who has also done 10 rock-bottom pistols on both legs, it inherently feels like a stupid exercise to suggest to people or perform myself. If my co-worker has a method to use them as a leg strengthener, balance developer, etc. and he can repeatedly do it safely, and in working with a host of professional athletes as well as lay people (many of which are recovering from intense knee injuries), well I'd rather err on the side of his expertise, belief in the literature and experience in working with people....than in your belief in the literature and experience just working with yourself, who evidently has not suffered any knee injuries.

And to posh-posh it, might put someone who's health history is not the same as yours at greater risk.
In the spirit of ol'IGx - that's definitely. Frankly, I don't think there have been many people who got injured by doing pistols - most can't do them anyway and it's not a goal most general trainees would chase. In BD's words, it is a parlour trick, not some amazing athletic achievement.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by terra » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:20 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:27 pm
newguy wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:33 pm
I have never understood why people act as if squatting is some technical challenge. If you can sit down in a chair and get back up you can squat.
Depends. A deep BW squat? Not so much like sitting on a chair. When I sit on a chair my knees never extend past my toes. In fact, if the chair wasn't there I would just fall on my ass.

A deep " asian style sitting on heels BW squat needs a whole different set of muscles and flexibility to happen.

I think there is certainly a lifestyle, and a cultural, and a genetic aspect to it. If I ever had it, I lost it with a lifetime of sitting in a desk and it's been a lot of work getting it back.
I dunno man, I'm not you but that type of language is exactly what the problem is IMHO. You don't need to "think" about squatting, you're body is literally evolved to do it.
...Aaand, our body has devolved or maladapted to the modern world. The majority of people don't move as nature intended, and it's an unconscious habit. I agree our body has evolved to do it in nature, so natural movements shouldn't be a problem. But we don't really live in nature anymore, so they often can be.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:32 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:28 pm
Isn't it the little Fagin himself, Freido?
OLD Friedo is considered a sage and a wiseman over at strongfirst, as well as their 'enforcer of standards'

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by odin » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:03 pm

Friedo's wisdom is too contrived. Like some of the folks at Dave Draper's site who deliberately avoid details so they can pretend they are on the level with Dan John. Difference is Dan knows the detail so he knows what he can leave out. Others just parrot shit or try to sound like Lao Tzu.

Sorry, derail.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Hanglow Joe » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:45 pm

I like Dan's forum but there are a lot of members over there making excuses for not working hard. Easy Strength, Easy Cardio, DMPM. A bunch of old coots justifying mailing it in.

There is some great stuff over there, you just need to sift through to find it.

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by newguy » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:07 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:32 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:28 pm
Isn't it the little Fagin himself, Freido?
OLD Friedo is considered a sage and a wiseman over at strongfirst, as well as their 'enforcer of standards'
He gets a strong and sweet shout out in "The Quick and Dead. Be a leopard or be a bitch."

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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:31 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:32 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:28 pm
Isn't it the little Fagin himself, Freido?
OLD Friedo is considered a sage and a wiseman over at strongfirst, as well as their 'enforcer of standards'
Did't he complain about Irongarm some time ago? I mean the forum, that's why it had to be hosted in China?

The way he runs StrongFirst would earn him a medal in ol' good USSR:
Ladies and Gentlemen,

It helps me immensely when you tell me something seems to be "going off the rails" on our forum - by this I mean if you notice people seeming to get angry, calling each other names, and the like. I know it doesn't happen often, but I really appreciate it when you bring it to my attention.
This place ruffled a few feathers. I remember Tracy Reifkind getting irritated about comments about her here - the thread title was "anal sex with Tracy Reifkind". She posted in reply couple of times, and her avatar was a crotch of a black dude with a huge dick. I reckon she was a little too sensitive.
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Re: Of Pistols and BW Squats

Post by Sangoma » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:44 am

Here we go. This thread should be immortalised: Iron Garm History question
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