Pavhole's new book is out today

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Turdacious » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:31 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:14 pm
Sangoma, you are not alone. I find all that shit repugnant as well.

This is what happens when you put someone in control of administrative duties who is, in every way, a 'small man'.
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Turdacious » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:32 pm

So does the Pavel's new book have the same homoerotic vibe as the ETK video?
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Sangoma » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:45 am

No erotica, but this is his most infomercial book to date. The whole thing leads to the last chapter, which is a pitch for the Strong Endurance seminar. Something along the lines of "Q&D is the tip of the iceberg and one of the many state of the art protocols that produce etc. etc."

Pavel makes a serious effort to create the impression that particulars of the protocol are very important. I am not buying it. Even in two protocols that are revealed there are several variations: 2H swings, 1H swings, 10 reps on the minute, 5 reps on half a minute, alternating swings and pushups every three minutes, snatch every minute or half (or something like that). Pretty large variation even within this very narrow selection - all claimed to produce results. I reckon as long as the principles of the repeated series method are followed and you stick to lifts and exercises that produce considerable power you will be getting results (I can't promise telomere lengthening).
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Hanglow Joe » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:09 am

Tim Ferriss claimed results for doing the Minimum Effective Dose jacked up on 100 supplements.

If you're 25 and are in a lab with specific protocols, of course you're going to get results. If you're 50 and do 30 minutes of swings/snatches and pushups, you'll maintain decent condition. The goal is not to get injured.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Mickey O'neil » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:29 pm

I haven't bought any training material in a long time, besides Furman's AoW, but I might pick this up.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by newguy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:55 pm

Mickey O'neil wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:29 pm
I haven't bought any training material in a long time, besides Furman's AoW, but I might pick this up.
I wouldn't.

This book is complete bullshit.

1st - I've got not problem with the idea that "sprint" training of some form is a good idea. I think it's a great idea actually.
2d - I've got no problem with the idea that the "sprints" can be much shorter than we might think.
3rd - The idea of clustering some sprints and then having a longer rest is fine.

Mikey - I will give you the whole thing right now
Do a series of three hard fast efforts with a short rest between. Think 10 swings on the minutes, 2 or three minutes. Or 5 swings on the 30 second mark, 4...6 times. Then give a longer break. rest 3...4 minutes. Maybe 5. Repeat for 3 times total. Do this 2 to 3 times a week.

There is this whole layer of shit revolving around mitochondria and what not. And explosive pushups. And a whole added layer of dice and rotating pushups and relatively precise program parameters.

Fuck the whole idea of explosive pushups. Not needed. Just do swings, or snatches. Maybe jerks. Maybe actually running? Like sprint sprints.

And I don't believe anybody added 10 pounds of muscle from this shit.

I do believe power and sprint training helps with strength and endurance.

Every single study Pavel cites, every single case study he mentions, I'm sure there is more to the story. Dig deep and the Australian Rugby Team does heavy lifting in the morning and three days of cardio.....or this guy who gained 10 pounds of muscle also bench presses and takes steroids. Or something.

The problem I have is that in my heart of hearts I do not believe that doing this would lead to much different results than just doing 6 to 10 sets of heavy swings, 10 on the minute.

I don't think it would have any difference if you did 20 snatches on the minute for 10 minutes.

Or if you just did a double long cycle for a ladder of 4,6,10 and used dice or some shit to decide how many ladders you did.

One of the programs is a sprint every 3 minutes. Why the hell not?

I don't buy the supposed science behind it.

And I don't buy the "get strong first or the program will not be effective" because a few pages later Pavel is talking about how everyone including a 9 year old girl made progress.

That being said, I do like the idea of clustering short, hard "sprint" like efforts of 10 to 30 seconds and then giving longer breaks.

I've been experimenting with light snatches or lighter two hand swings done with pep, 10 on the minute, 3 minutes, then a 3 minute break times 3.

But I really don't think I'll get much difference than if I do 10 on the minute for 10 minutes.
Last edited by newguy on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 am

I am not claiming this one hundred percent, but. I think the whole Strong Endurance is based on the work of Viktor Selouyanov. He was a professor of sport science and did a lot of work on endurance, including strength endurance. Just yesterday I was listening to his lecture on YouTube, entitled "Lecture for Sambo National Team" (No leopards there), and overall theme is very reminiscent of science material of Pavel's book.

The lecture is nothing short of brilliant, and I may undertake the mammoth task of translating it - two parts, over two hours each. I wonder if there is a way to transform a soundtrack into text via some sort of software.
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by JasonC » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:32 am

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 am
Just yesterday I was listening to his lecture on YouTube, entitled "Lecture for Sambo National Team" (No leopards there), and overall theme is very reminiscent of science material of Pavel's book.

The lecture is nothing short of brilliant, and I may undertake the mammoth task of translating it - two parts, over two hours each. I wonder if there is a way to transform a soundtrack into text via some sort of software.
The Russian national team can't be leopards because they haven't done S&S, much less the Strong Endurance seminar.

Technically, how about this: Step 1, you repeat Seluyanov's lecture in Russian into dictation software (maybe with earbud in as you listen and saying it simultaneously, like a UN translator but not translating, just repeating Russian to Russian). Step 2, polish the bugs and send me the Russian manuscript. Step 3, I'll feed it through Google Translate and ask you about garbled or ambiguous parts. Step 4, I polish it into non-machine-sounding English.
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:39 am

Sounds like a deal. Give me some time to bring myself to the task.
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by SubClaw » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:49 am

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 am
I am not claiming this one hundred percent, but. I think the whole Strong Endurance is based on the work of Viktor Selouyanov. He was a professor of sport science and did a lot of work on endurance, including strength endurance. Just yesterday I was listening to his lecture on YouTube, entitled "Lecture for Sambo National Team" (No leopards there), and overall theme is very reminiscent of science material of Pavel's book.

The lecture is nothing short of brilliant, and I may undertake the mammoth task of translating it - two parts, over two hours each. I wonder if there is a way to transform a soundtrack into text via some sort of software.
Google "YouTube to text". There are some interesting links.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by SubClaw » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:57 am

newguy wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:55 pm
The problem I have is that in my heart of hearts I do not believe that doing this would lead to much different results than just doing 6 to 10 sets of heavy swings, 10 on the minute.
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We don't know whether this Q&D really works or not. It's to early to tell.

But we DO know that girevoy sport actually works. And we do know that Bryce Lane's 50/20 works too. So, if not for variety's sake, I can think a single reason to bother with this "new" program.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by tsubor » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:20 am

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:36 am
So. The book is not bad. It is an interesting program with interesting promises. My shoulders don't allow me doing heavy snatches, so I am going to stick with what I am currently doing.

There is a bit of a headache involved in determining the starting bell - I am definitely not going to part with $300 for an accelerometer. I don't think it has to be terribly precise either. But the program itself is fairly simple. I would even do the dice toss to follow the variety recommendation.

On the side note, because of Q&D I've been reading StrongFirst forum lately. My fuck, Freides reminds me of the old sleazy orthodox from the USSR. He actively encourages snitching. Mind you, some of the posters seem to be on the same page with him or better: " Steve, should we also report improprieties in the personal training logs if we see any?" - " Yes! Absolutely!" Makes me want to puke.
Re accelerometer; if so inclined, a video tracking app should work if you record your swings as long as the angle and distance for the recordings are consistent. It may or may not give accurate values for absolute acceleration but who gives a fuck, you just pick the one with the highest relative value.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Hanglow Joe » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:39 pm

tsubor wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:20 am
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:36 am
So. The book is not bad. It is an interesting program with interesting promises. My shoulders don't allow me doing heavy snatches, so I am going to stick with what I am currently doing.

There is a bit of a headache involved in determining the starting bell - I am definitely not going to part with $300 for an accelerometer. I don't think it has to be terribly precise either. But the program itself is fairly simple. I would even do the dice toss to follow the variety recommendation.

On the side note, because of Q&D I've been reading StrongFirst forum lately. My fuck, Freides reminds me of the old sleazy orthodox from the USSR. He actively encourages snitching. Mind you, some of the posters seem to be on the same page with him or better: " Steve, should we also report improprieties in the personal training logs if we see any?" - " Yes! Absolutely!" Makes me want to puke.
Re accelerometer; if so inclined, a video tracking app should work if you record your swings as long as the angle and distance for the recordings are consistent. It may or may not give accurate values for absolute acceleration but who gives a fuck, you just pick the one with the highest relative value.
StrongFirst will be selling Accelerometers within 3 months.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:38 pm

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Lych » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:19 pm

Kazuya Mishima wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:04 pm
If you don't feel the urge to punch this face you have fragile telomeres.

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...yep, my telomeres are still tough as fuck. Thanks for the litmus test.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:59 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:57 am


We don't know whether this Q&D really works or not. It's to early to tell.

But we DO know that girevoy sport actually works. And we do know that Bryce Lane's 50/20 works too. So, if not for variety's sake, I can think a single reason to bother with this "new" program.
So after Pavel lost control of the kettlebell info market especially on GS, he's pretty much tried to minimize it among his followers...the one thing that is true, is if a Pavel-ite somehow gets to a Rudnev or similar high level russian GS coach seminar, they radically change their technique to match the GS techniques.

It's kind of funny, the best GS snatchers can do more work per unit of time than the best Hard Style snatchers, and they can keep that work going far beyond when the HS folks stop

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by JasonC » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:10 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:59 pm
It's kind of funny, the best GS snatchers can do more work per unit of time than the best Hard Style snatchers, and they can keep that work going far beyond when the HS folks stop
Yes, yes, and they're (actual, not make-believe) elite athletes too. Fine. But what do the force-plate studies say?! HA! I have you there, my good man!

But seriously, the HS thing reminds me of the this academic joke. A celebrated professor from Paris attends a rival's lecture about his new findings. At the end, he rises to his feet and objects, "Very well, I grant that it works in practice. BUT DOES IT WORK IN THEORY?!"
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:55 pm

All these armchair haters...

Ok, I'm 3 or 4 workouts into this, and...I like it. Quite a bit actually. I'm not ready to get a "Q&D 4 Life" tattoo across my stomach, but this is a definite keeper. The avoidance of the lactic acid is really the key. A million ways to skin that cat, but this programming definitely works for that. I've had no DOMS or post-workout rubber legs syndrome from these workouts. I've always been the guy to wreck myself with man-makers and 50/20 shit, and it always leads to burnout and broke dickness. If nothing else, this 10 bucks brought some sanity to my approach. Very sustainable, comrade. \:D/

Not going to buy an accelerometer anytime soon either, but I can definitely see an increase in power. My shadowboxing is faster and more crisp. I've laid off the heavy bag for a couple of weeks, and we'll see how that feels when I get back to it. My chest, arms, legs, and glutes are filling out a bit. I also like the aerobic effect you get from this. The heart rate climbs as the workout progresses. By 40 to 50 reps the heart is pumping pretty good, and if I keep attacking the reps with power I feel like I'm finishing up a brisk run by the end of the 100 rep workout.

I think the abbreviated 40 reps of swings/pushups would also make for a good warm-up on my lifting days, or heavy bag days. Haven't tried that yet, but I think that's probably a good way for me to keep doing this over the long haul while modulating the volume. Use the short version as a warm up on days that I'm doing something else. Do the 100 reps when I'm only doing this for the day.

YMMV

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by dkay » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:33 pm

Kaz, your unrelenting racism aside, how can you give any feedback 3-4 workouts in? Really? JFC.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:52 pm

dkay wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:33 pm
Kaz, your unrelenting racism aside, how can you give any feedback 3-4 workouts in? Really? JFC.
How many times do you need to see a movie before you can give a review? Eat a meal? Read a book? You must be really, really circumspect. Perhaps his "unrelenting racism" is just a symptom of his superior judgment?
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:33 pm

dkay wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:33 pm
Kaz, your unrelenting racism aside, how can you give any feedback 3-4 workouts in? Really? JFC.
That's fair enough. Although, I wonder if you're as critical of the folks shouting this down without ever trying it.

I can tell that it's a good "one stop shopping" option for the times when I just want to do the one thing that has an asymmetrical effect. Some people like minimalism, some people hate it. I prefer it, and embrace it a lot. As far as this program, who can deny the effectiveness of swings and pushups? That's fool proof. The difference here is the avoidance of the acute lactic fatigue. That's always been a blindspot, for me. While I've never ventured over into full on Crossfit retardation, much of my historical training has been fatigue seeking in the old school belief of "that's how you get good and tough, kid". So, I drank the kool-aid on this one, gave it a whirl, figured out that it does deliver results (swings and pushups, after all), and I don't feel wobbly that night and wrecked the following day. In my opinion, It's a more sane version of Simple & Sinister, although the Skrongfist commissars are going to tell me that I'm missing out on the magical somatic re-engineering technology known as the "get up".

It's a keeper for me. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest, all that Bruce Lee shit...that's how I roll. If down the road I discover that this wrecked my knees and elbows and gave me AIDS, then I will nail a manifesto on the door of Pavel's cathedral. For now, I can tell it's doing me some good.

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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by JimZipCode » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:13 pm

Kazuya Mishima wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:55 pm
Ok, I'm 3 or 4 workouts into this, and – I like it. Quite a bit actually.
...
I can definitely see an increase in power. My shadowboxing is faster and more crisp. I've laid off the heavy bag for a couple of weeks, and we'll see how that feels when I get back to it. My chest, arms, legs, and glutes are filling out a bit. I also like the aerobic effect you get from this.
But what are your telomeres doing?
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Sangoma » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:05 am

After looking around around Russian Youtube this is definitely based mostly on Selouyanov's work. Selouyanov was a bit of a renegade in the sport science in Soviet Union and later Russia and apparently made a few enemies.

In terms of endurance he developed two novel methods of training:
1. Stato-dynamic method - to grow oxidative muscle fibers and
2. Repeated series method - to grow mitochondria in these fibers

According to his work and, lately, work of his pupils the contribution of slow fibres to physical activity of all kinds is underrated. Volkov, one of his followers, has tested Crossfitters, for example, and found that aerobic systems contribute more than 50% during intense WODs. Hence the idea that improving oxidative capacity is beneficial for every athlete with the exception of pure strength sports - powerlifting, only lifting etc.

Another big point he made is that muscle endurance is specific. In case of those Crossfitters VO2 Max is different if you test them on treadmill, stationary bike or arm ergometer. So the endurance should be developed accordingly. Cyclists don't need arm muscles, for example, and wrestlers don't need lower limb muscles as much as they need torso and arms.
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Sangoma » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:10 am

There is another method to develop mitochondria in slow fibers Selouyanov was writing about, 10x10. He recommended for the warm up to di the following circuit: 10 pushups alternated with 10 incline oullups (from low bar, so that the feet are resting on the ground). High tempo, no break in between: 10 pushups-10 pull-ups-10 pushups etc. The number can be lower.

There are detailed chapters on planning of endurance training in Selouyanov's books. I will summarise it when it settles in my head.
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Re: Pavhole's new book is out today

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:19 am

So basically supersets?
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