Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:39 pm

Dr Shawn Baker is the poster child for the Carnivore Diet ppl. Just a stud masters athlete and eats mostly ribeye stake in huge amounts. He finally released his bloodwork and discussed it with Robb Wolf.

https://robbwolf.com/2018/03/13/episode ... lood-work/

By traditional analysis it was not good, but he and Robb seemed underwhelmed.

Here is another discussion of the results

https://optimisingnutrition.com/2018/03 ... -a-review/

And more on how he might make some tweaks

https://optimisingnutrition.com/2018/04 ... rinciples/

Obviously, we'd need to have some bloodwork from before he started carnivore to really figure out what was going on. But, the low test and high blood sugars seem very not good.

For my part, I attribute it to primarily OVERTRAINING and also too much protein and not enough saturated fat. These go together as his body is breaking down turning all that meat into glucose and not recovering. The micro nutrient issue isn't a big deal and can be resolved with some organ meats and caviar.

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10838
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:49 pm

has been eating a carnivore diet for the last 15 months.
That's not all that long.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:33 pm

Right. We'd need to see his diet and bloodwork pre-change before making any conclusions.

Despite that, I'd still bet the negative results are from the massive overtraining relative to his diet: the glucose conversion is too much for his body. No way he is in ketosis. If he moved that protein fat ratio down towards 1:1 or even lower, I'm pretty sure the issues would resolve.

It would be great to see a Cortisol and 24hr insulin study on him. As the protein conversion to glucose probably spiked both.

Edit

I train about 1/24th as intensely as he does. Still, it makes me think I should move my protein down closer to 1.2g/kg bw and ramp up the fat. Obviously, I don't need a lower than 1:1 ratio and I'd still like to lose about 10lbs.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:37 pm

To me it's not a knock to say that carnivorism is something you do at your own risk. I've heard many people who really seem to gravitate toward this type of eating and seem to thrive, but having Baker as the posterboy of this type of eating is not doing anybody any favors.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:39 pm

Yes and no. His personality is off for sure. He's a surgeon, so way out on the psychopathy spectrum. But he is killing it in the gym and at meets.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:45 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:39 pm
Yes and no. His personality is off for sure. He's a surgeon, so way out on the psychopathy spectrum. But he is killing it in the gym and at meets.
No, he was a surgeon. He was stripped of his medical license after he had repeatedly and "inappropriately performed the wrong procedure". You have to demonstrate exceptionally poor judgment over a long period of time for this to happen. Again, that's not a dig on your diet, but having a person with a demonstrable record of bad judgment and dishonesty so severe he was barred from his profession be leading the charge, is a bad look.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Kazuya Mishima
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6276
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:11 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Kazuya Mishima » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:11 pm

That dude looks like the kind of guy that would invite a bunch of 13yo boys over to his place for all night Fortnite parties. That, or pay a Thai ladyboy to shit on his chest. I’m just sayin.

User avatar
Alfred_E._Neuman
Sgt. Major
Posts: 4675
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:13 am
Location: The Usual Gang of Idiots

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:14 pm

This made the rounds on the plant based blogs and youtube channels a while ago. They were hitting him pretty hard on his T and serum protein numbers. Typical of this type of debate, Baker ended up getting into pissing contests with all sorts of people who questioned his blood work. He came off as a total jack ass.

I like how Wolff and Baker come to the conclusion that his low T is due to his T is so potent from all the animals he consumes that it only takes a minuscule amount to keep him jacked, so he doesn't have to make as much. :rolleyes:
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.

User avatar
Alfred_E._Neuman
Sgt. Major
Posts: 4675
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:13 am
Location: The Usual Gang of Idiots

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:15 pm

And even funnier, when he was on Rogan's podcast Joe was slobbering all over his balls in agreement (as usual). Then Rich Roll will be on Rogan's podcast and he'll be in complete agreement with the plant based diet for athletes.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:17 pm

Kazuya Mishima wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:11 pm
That dude looks like the kind of guy that would invite a bunch of 13yo boys over to his place for all night Fortnite parties. That, or pay a Thai ladyboy to shit on his chest. I’m just sayin.
Definitely the former.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:28 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:45 pm
Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:39 pm
Yes and no. His personality is off for sure. He's a surgeon, so way out on the psychopathy spectrum. But he is killing it in the gym and at meets.
No, he was a surgeon. He was stripped of his medical license after he had repeatedly and "inappropriately performed the wrong procedure". You have to demonstrate exceptionally poor judgment over a long period of time for this to happen. Again, that's not a dig on your diet, but having a person with a demonstrable record of bad judgment and dishonesty so severe he was barred from his profession be leading the charge, is a bad look.
I think you got me wrong here. I'm not invested in The Carnivore Diet in any way. And I'm no evangelist on it. It is working right now for me. And I think it would work for some others. But it isn't magic. It's an elimination diet. That's all. If it is unhealthy long term, I want to know.

And I'm not a Baker fan. Less so now that I know his background. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is a psychopath.

Edit

And for the record, I got here by progressively eliminating things I was in ignorance of this whole fad until recently. And I don't agree with a lot of the conceptual structure used by the Carnivore folks. Also not claiming any expertise in biochem or nutrition.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:53 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:28 pm
I think you got me wrong here. I'm not invested in The Carnivore Diet in any way. And I'm no evangelist on it. It is working right now for me. And I think it would work for some others. But it isn't magic. It's an elimination diet. That's all. If it is unhealthy long term, I want to know.

And I'm not a Baker fan. Less so now that I know his background. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is a psychopath.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding, but only in this: you are to be commended for your curiosity and willingness to experiment with your diet. I was musing about Baker because he was the topic of the thread, not as an oblique criticism of your eating. It's at least possible that lots of folks would benefit from similar eating, and unfortunately, I think he may do more harm than good in getting people to try it.
Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:28 pm
And for the record, I got here by progressively eliminating things I was in ignorance of this whole fad until recently. And I don't agree with a lot of the conceptual structure used by the Carnivore folks. Also not claiming any expertise in biochem or nutrition.
Understood.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Alfred_E._Neuman
Sgt. Major
Posts: 4675
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:13 am
Location: The Usual Gang of Idiots

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:26 pm

Are there any well researched benefits to a ketogenic, actual blood markers that have moved in a positive direction, disease reversal, etc? I know tons of people are having good results with weight loss with the diet, but is that simply due to it being a diets that eliminates most people's trigger foods?

As far as I know, the only legit research that's been done on the diet is it's benefits on helping kids with epilepsy. Apparently, going into ketosis helps control the overactivity in the brain that leads to seizures.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:43 pm

I don't think they really know of specific benefits of ketone use as opposed to the alternative theory of weight loss and macronutrient elimination. Other than of course, as you note epilepsy.

https://blog.virtahealth.com/reversing- ... osis-lchf/

Also, ketogenic diets mimic fasting (or perhaps fasting mimics ketosis?). And fasting means autophagy which is clearly helpful re: cancer. In that, chemo paired with fasting is more effective. Theory being cancer cells are naturally weak and the body when fasting is quite close to killing them off and the chemo pushes them over the edge.

But mouse study. https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ost-chemo/

Beginning human study

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01175837

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by newguy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:54 am

Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:26 pm
Are there any well researched benefits to a ketogenic, actual blood markers that have moved in a positive direction, disease reversal, etc? I know tons of people are having good results with weight loss with the diet, but is that simply due to it being a diets that eliminates most people's trigger foods?

As far as I know, the only legit research that's been done on the diet is it's benefits on helping kids with epilepsy. Apparently, going into ketosis helps control the overactivity in the brain that leads to seizures.
Yes.

In the end it is always going to be calories in and calories out. Any positive blood work from an all meat diet will come from the fact that generally being lean improves your blood work.

Why "keto" works - if you truly go keto, meat, fat, low calorie vegetables (careful with oil and veggies) then it is really easy to keep calories low and hunger is much less than you would think given the calories. Plus it is hard to cheat. 1.2 pounds of ground meat, a little butter to cook it in, an onion sliced in, some cheese, and you can only get so many calories. And you won't be hungry after you adapt. If you need veggies dice in some cauliflower or broccoli or peppers.

Once you start adding keto pizza crust and keto muffins and keto tortillas and keto fries then it is all over. Calories climb and you have no advantage. Hunger climbs.

You can get the same effect going zero fat all "starch." A can of beans and a large bowl of rice will fill you. Add in some salsa. You will be filled, you will be satisfied, and you will lose weight. Same thing with two potatoes and just a tiny bit of butter for palate.

Weight will drop and blood work will be amazing. And you will not have that weird low carb feeling you get. But you will be hungry during the day. (I will be at least.)

The problem here is that it is very easy to deceive myself. When you are eating rice and beans, adding in some tortilla chips is not that big of a deal. And it's not that big of a deal to sprinkle on some cheese. And at that point just add the tortilla and make a burrito. Etc. Etc.
--

Also, regarding low T....I don't want to be the asshole that says it, but don't T levels drop when you are coming off a cycle?

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:06 pm

newguy wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:54 am
Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:26 pm
Are there any well researched benefits to a ketogenic, actual blood markers that have moved in a positive direction, disease reversal, etc? I know tons of people are having good results with weight loss with the diet, but is that simply due to it being a diets that eliminates most people's trigger foods?

As far as I know, the only legit research that's been done on the diet is it's benefits on helping kids with epilepsy. Apparently, going into ketosis helps control the overactivity in the brain that leads to seizures.
Yes.

In the end it is always going to be calories in and calories out. Any positive blood work from an all meat diet will come from the fact that generally being lean improves your blood work.

Why "keto" works - if you truly go keto, meat, fat, low calorie vegetables (careful with oil and veggies) then it is really easy to keep calories low and hunger is much less than you would think given the calories. Plus it is hard to cheat. 1.2 pounds of ground meat, a little butter to cook it in, an onion sliced in, some cheese, and you can only get so many calories. And you won't be hungry after you adapt. If you need veggies dice in some cauliflower or broccoli or peppers.

Once you start adding keto pizza crust and keto muffins and keto tortillas and keto fries then it is all over. Calories climb and you have no advantage. Hunger climbs.

You can get the same effect going zero fat all "starch." A can of beans and a large bowl of rice will fill you. Add in some salsa. You will be filled, you will be satisfied, and you will lose weight. Same thing with two potatoes and just a tiny bit of butter for palate.

Weight will drop and blood work will be amazing. And you will not have that weird low carb feeling you get. But you will be hungry during the day. (I will be at least.)

The problem here is that it is very easy to deceive myself. When you are eating rice and beans, adding in some tortilla chips is not that big of a deal. And it's not that big of a deal to sprinkle on some cheese. And at that point just add the tortilla and make a burrito. Etc. Etc.
--

Also, regarding low T....I don't want to be the asshole that says it, but don't T levels drop when you are coming off a cycle?
I agree with almost everything you say. Except, I'd argue that for some (most everyone at this point in US to be honest) has a damaged insulin system. And that cutting out sugar and carbs has benefit in addition to losing weight. After all, T2 diabetes is possible in ppl who have lost a lot of weight. Exposure to excess insulin drives a lot of pathology. I'm almost ready to say it is the primary cause of our modern chronic conditions. But maybe not.

And I just assume any person intelligent enough to get theough med school is smart enough to not voluntarily take a blood test meant to establish the benefits of a novel diet and publish it right after going off the juice. But, maybe low test looked better than a supra-physiological 1800 or 2000 score.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6635
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:13 pm

I said it before and will say it again: bloodwork on its own has very little value. At least patients presenting to the emergency room for infarcts have normal cholesterol. Symptoms and anthropometry have way more value in the assessment of health. Normal weight, reasonable strength and endurance, feeling good - way more important than some number in the blood. Also, many numbers are meaningless: a friend of mine has been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and got continuous BSL monitor. It is stitched to the arm for two weeks, and you can check your sugar level on the phone virtually every 5 seconds. It was all over the place for him - meaning that random sugar checks have no value whatsoever.

Diet wise, there have been some challenges to the nutritional science (I am very tempted to put the last word in quotes). There are several individuals on the Net that have been eating meat only for more than a decade - I think one woman was going it for 17 years, because of severe food allergies. Yet none of them display any signs of deficiency. Similar to Vilhjalmur Stefansson - he lived with Inuits for five years and all that time was eating boiled salmon. I mean day in and day out. This shakes the idea of nutritional balance and balanced diet. Interesting.

One problem I see with pure carnivore is performance. Pretty much everyone on low carb note drop in performance when a sprint is required - which is pretty much any sport except lifting. Though Lately there are more stories of successful triathloners and other serious endurance folk on low carb. Who knows.

And yes, it's calories. 95% of loss/gain. Whatever helps control intake will work. Keto, low anything, low everything, intermittent fasting, seven meals a day and what not - reduce calories and you will lose weight.
Image

User avatar
powerlifter54
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7937
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: TX

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:35 am

First, the Doc is an outlier at best, a nutbar at worst.
Full disclosure, probably so am I.

Second, Eliminating a lot of processed foods, particularly carbs, is a good thing.

You have to find your own zone.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:03 pm

Sangoma, I agree with everything you wrote. The bit I quoted below as well. But, I always try and point out here the importance of insulin.

Someone with a broken insulin system (self-broken 99% of the time) simply cannot approach weight loss from a CICO mindset and succeed. The physiologic and psychologic drive for carbs mixed with fat is for all practical purposes irresistible for them.

Yes, if they are in a prison and given a Std American Diet at below maintenance kcals they will lose weight. But, they'll lose less weight than a metabolically healthy individual and once you stop physically restraining them they'll invariably go back to overeating.

There is just no getting around the qualitative difference in response to food btwn a metabolically healthy individual and a metabolically deranged one.

And yes, metabolic derangement today is almost entirely self-inflicted. But that isn't relevant at this point. The damage has been done and we now have generations of people who physiologically experience eating differently. And are surrounded by cheap foods that they for all intents and purposes can't resist and exacerbate the problem.

In other words, CICO is true. But it is not true that every person has the same motor or that all motors are in good repair. And CICO assumes that motors are the same across the population.

It is also true that circa as recently as the 1970's, CICO would have been a valid approach to diet and all this admittedly extreme macronutrient elimination was unnecessary.

But that's not the case now. The food industry has spent billions (trillions by now?) pushing for profit foods that break the insulin system. Some lucky few have insulin systems so robust that they can deal with the assault. The vast majority don't.

It also seems pretty clear to me that the remaining CICO advocates who aren't Big Food shills are from among the few with insulin systems robust enough to deal with the current "food climate".

Because the experiential difference between a metabolically deranged metabolism and a healthy one is so great, they can't conceptually understand what is driving obesity and chronic disease.

Their argumentation comes across as autistic and/or sadistic, but it isn't. They just suffer conceptual failure when they try and understand what makes these fatties eat so damn much crap food. For them, it's a rational process dominated by cost/benefit analysis. And they just can't conceive of it as anything else...

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:13 pm

And yes, it's calories. 95% of loss/gain. Whatever helps control intake will work. Keto, low anything, low everything, intermittent fasting, seven meals a day and what not - reduce calories and you will lose weight.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6635
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:25 am

Benny, I wish people stopped talking about insulin. It is not the cause of obesity. Listed to Joe Rogan podcast with Taubes and Guyenet, it's entertaining, and poor Taubes is taken apart.

In the Eastern suburbs of Sydney (the most affluent area) they now routinely test overweight patients for insulin sensitivity and diagnose them with pre-diabetes and put them on medication. I reckon the next one is pre-pre-diabetes. You don't break Insulin system, it simply reacts to external stimuli. Resistance is not a new concept. Drinkers are resistant to alcohol, heroin addicts have to increase the doses, and so on. All of it is solved by abstinence: don't drink for a month, and one beer will make you drunker than usual.

In any case, insulin sensitivity in 99% of cases is easily correctable: make the tissues crave glucose. You do that by... reducing intake and increasing physical activity. Metabolic ward studies have consistently demonstrated this. The main problem is appetite control, but there is simply no way around hunger. If you want to stop smoking you have to suffer for a while and get used to not smoking. It is the same with food: first two weeks are difficult, but then you get used to low intake, and even cheat days don't bring as much joy as expected. To the contrary, it becomes unpleasant to eat more.

Some can reduce intake gradually, some have to do something drastic. Check this video. If I had a problem of obesity I would do something like that.

Image

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:01 am

I honestly don't understand how your post is responsive. Reading it gave me vertigo. It just re-iterates most of my points. And actually proves my last point.

I don't know how to respond to your analogy re: alcoholics and heroin addicts. Other than to say calling alcoholism a case of alcohol resistance is insane.

I agree that "broken" was a poor word choice. I'd replace it with malfunctioning.

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by newguy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:49 am

I don't know that insulin is necessarily the issue. But I absolutely agree that modern life makes calorie control insanely difficult for some people. And it is clear that some bodies have an easier time with this than others.

Counting calories is one way. But if you do not have standardized cooking methods or way of controlling for it, then that can be really hard. You need a fairly set menu with meals that you have pre planned and can cook.

Portion control is probably an easier way to control for calories.

The absolute best portion control/calorie control book/method was the No S diet. It works. Anytime I've implemented I've lost weight. My problem has always been breakfast and lunch. I hate eating breakfast. I hate eating lunch. I am a chubby motherfucker by nature and my daytime appetite has always been next to nothing. I've never built that breakfast and lunch habit.....

Finding that one thing that works and you can stick with is individual and takes work.

Very Low Carb, moderate fat/protein works for me. Can I stick with it? Would I want to? Very low fat, rice and beans and potatoes works. Would I stick with that?

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6635
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:44 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:01 am
I honestly don't understand how your post is responsive. Reading it gave me vertigo. It just re-iterates most of my points. And actually proves my last point.

I don't know how to respond to your analogy re: alcoholics and heroin addicts. Other than to say calling alcoholism a case of alcohol resistance is insane.

I agree that "broken" was a poor word choice. I'd replace it with malfunctioning.
Broken or malfunctioning, resistance of any kind is easily fixed. By abstinence. Hence the alcohol example. In case of insulin resistance you remove causes of elevated insulin, which in most people is excess of food. Any food in general and tasty food - tasty because it contains sugar - in particular. Take it away and this malfunction will quickly go away.

And yes, someone with malfunctioning "insulin system" can use CICO just like an advanced bodybuilder can.

A tangent: the main cause of obesity is food addiction, not insulin or some other substance du jour. Sugar does play a role in it, a significant one, but not because of some innate harmful property, but because several reward systems in our brains are responsive to sweet taste (not necessarily sugar). There are many psychological factors that predispose people to overeating. For example, you are likely to finish all food on the plate never mind its size, even though a smaller portion would be enough. There are many more.

What I am trying to say is what I said earlier: I wish people stopped talking about Insulin as the ultimate cause of nutritional evil. It is too reductionist and simplistic. Penn lost weight by eating carbs - potatoes. Where is Insulin in this example? Nowhere, because this guy simply started eating less. CICO.
Image

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:57 pm

You keep agreeing with me and acting like you aren't. It's very strange.

I don't think insulin is a bad thing. It is a hormone and necessary for health. At the same time, chronic exposure to high levels is damaging and leads to chronic illness. Controlling it is crucial. Spikes and crashes in blood sugar due to over consumption of carbs drives most overeating and thus obesity.

The only place I can find where we disagree is in respect to alcoholism and heroin addiction.

I'm not an alcoholic or drug addict thank god knock on wood, but invariably it is experienced as a powerful compulsion to consume alcohol that is qualitatively different from what a non-alcoholic experiences.

Thus, if one were to address a group of non-alcoholics wrt managing drinking the appropriate approach is to discuss it in terms of amount of alcohol consumed per bodyweight. And things like degree of impairment per unit ounce consumed over time.

On the other hand, taking that approach with alcoholics is ineffective no matter how factually correct.

At this point, almost everyone in the US has turned themselves into an "alcoholic" wrt food. As evidenced by the massive amount of T2 diabetes and metabolic syndromes. And it is getting worse and worse. This has been self-inflicted and is controllable. But just like alcoholism, it isn't controllable by telling them to " lol drink less you dummy". And yes, if they drank less they'd be fine. But they won't drink less, they're alcoholics. Their experience and relationship to food is deranged and they can't be treated as if they were an average person in the 70's or 80's.

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21108
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:45 pm

Are you ok, Benny? Or are you swinging manic at this point?

I met Taubes and asked him about his foundation's study's results and he explained the researcher was an asshole. Which everybody viewed skeptically. He seems pretty beat down and unwilling to engage in talking about how carbs make you fat.

More interesting was the guy who wrote the Metabolic Basis of Cancer, or whatever that was. His explanation of his work was super interesting.

Post Reply