Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

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Bennyonesix1
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:28 pm

booted an edit
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I'm great Steve. Thanks for asking. I'm not really the manic/depressive type. Hyperactive certainly.

I'm not a Taubes guy. Never have been. I don't think carbs make you fat. I don't deny thermodynamics. I think if you eat too many carbs along with fat, you can screw yourself up. And unscrewing yourself, on a practical level, means forgetting CICO. Maybe forever, maybe for a short time, maybe for a year or two. But focusing on CICO at that point doesn't work in the real world.

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:08 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:57 pm
You keep agreeing with me and acting like you aren't. It's very strange.

I don't think insulin is a bad thing. It is a hormone and necessary for health. At the same time, chronic exposure to high levels is damaging and leads to chronic illness. Controlling it is crucial. Spikes and crashes in blood sugar due to over consumption of carbs drives most overeating and thus obesity.

The only place I can find where we disagree is in respect to alcoholism and heroin addiction.

I'm not an alcoholic or drug addict thank god knock on wood, but invariably it is experienced as a powerful compulsion to consume alcohol that is qualitatively different from what a non-alcoholic experiences.

Thus, if one were to address a group of non-alcoholics wrt managing drinking the appropriate approach is to discuss it in terms of amount of alcohol consumed per bodyweight. And things like degree of impairment per unit ounce consumed over time.

On the other hand, taking that approach with alcoholics is ineffective no matter how factually correct.

At this point, almost everyone in the US has turned themselves into an "alcoholic" wrt food. As evidenced by the massive amount of T2 diabetes and metabolic syndromes. And it is getting worse and worse. This has been self-inflicted and is controllable. But just like alcoholism, it isn't controllable by telling them to " lol drink less you dummy". And yes, if they drank less they'd be fine. But they won't drink less, they're alcoholics. Their experience and relationship to food is deranged and they can't be treated as if they were an average person in the 70's or 80's.
What causes the actual damage in type 2 diabetes is very complex. I haven't spent significant time searching, but I haven't seen any evidence that elevated levels of insulin per se are somehow harmful. Elevated glucose levels, on the other hand, are damaging. Moreover, overeating extends and amplifies postprandial metabolic effects of the actual eating, I think this is the most significant damaging factor. Lastly, appetite is in obesity is driven by insulin, it's way more complex than that.

But - that's besides the point. The way I see it we disagree on the solution to the problem. How do you reckon you treat an addiction? How do you stop smoking? There is only one way: to stop smoking. All medical modalities - nicotine patches, hypnosis, therapy etc. - have very limited value. At the end of the day you get your shit together and stop lighting a cigarette. It's the same with any other addiction: ultimately you have to stop doing it. How do you stop overeating? You stop overeating, and there is no way you can do it without some degree of suffering. Addiction is habitual, and you have to change the habit to fix it. Do you know of other solutions?

I think Penn nailed just right: overeating is habitual, and breaking the habit is the only way to lose weight.
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:11 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:45 pm
Are you ok, Benny? Or are you swinging manic at this point?

I met Taubes and asked him about his foundation's study's results and he explained the researcher was an asshole. Which everybody viewed skeptically. He seems pretty beat down and unwilling to engage in talking about how carbs make you fat.

More interesting was the guy who wrote the Metabolic Basis of Cancer, or whatever that was. His explanation of his work was super interesting.
When I was listening to Rogan's interview with Taubes and Guyenet I was surprised by Taubes' lack of knowledge and the ability to argue his point. Guyenet was throing facts left, right and center, Taubes was blubbering something along the lines "don't you think it is reasonable to assume..."

Do you have a link/reference to the Metabolic Basis of Cancer work?
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:38 am

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:08 pm

What causes the actual damage in type 2 diabetes is very complex. I haven't spent significant time searching, but I haven't seen any evidence that elevated levels of insulin per se are somehow harmful.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... n_sectitle

Sangoma wrote:Elevated glucose levels, on the other hand, are damaging.
Most insulin resistant and hyperinsulinemic individuals manage to maintain normal blood glucose while incurring the associated attributes which lead to T2D and CVD.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

Sangoma wrote: Lastly, appetite is in obesity is driven by insulin, it's way more complex than that.
You keep arguing with strawmen. I don't think if you removed insulin you would be healthy. I think that if you eat a diet that controls insulin AND YOU CAN ADHERE TO IT you will be lean and healthy. It doesn't matter what the macronutrients are IF YOU CAN ADHERE TO IT. If insulin is controlled it is a good diet.
Sangoma wrote:But - that's besides the point. The way I see it we disagree on the solution to the problem. How do you reckon you treat an addiction? How do you stop smoking? There is only one way: to stop smoking. All medical modalities - nicotine patches, hypnosis, therapy etc. - have very limited value. At the end of the day you get your shit together and stop lighting a cigarette. It's the same with any other addiction: ultimately you have to stop doing it. How do you stop overeating? You stop overeating, and there is no way you can do it without some degree of suffering. Addiction is habitual, and you have to change the habit to fix it. Do you know of other solutions?

I think Penn nailed just right: overeating is habitual, and breaking the habit is the only way to lose weight.
The addiction isn't to overeating. That's facile. These people don't say "boy howdy am I going to overeat some broccoli tonight!" Or "damn son I cannot wait to download 2lbs of grilled chicken breast". They don't get off on the act of overeating. They don't think about and want to overeat. People don't want to be fat. They are just physiologically driven to overeat certain foods more than they want to be thin or healthy. Foods like french fries and cake and soda and cookies and pizza and nachos and ice cream.

And on the ground, the way you stop overeating the types of food people overeat is to eliminate them. It just doesn't work to twll some morbidly obese teen to "only have a small glass of soda" or "a few french fries" or whatever. What works is getting their insulin stable for long periods of time via things like food elimination and intermittent fasting. Then they just simply reduce the calories in below the calories out. Of course, the drive to overeat certain macronutrient combinations is often invincible absent a metabolic ward setting.

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:41 am

double post
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:42 am

triple post i should be beaten with a hammer.
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:55 am

I mistyped: I meant appetite in obesity is not driven by insulin.
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:26 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:38 am
The addiction isn't to overeating. That's facile. These people don't say "boy howdy am I going to overeat some broccoli tonight!" Or "damn son I cannot wait to download 2lbs of grilled chicken breast". They don't get off on the act of overeating. They don't think about and want to overeat. People don't want to be fat. They are just physiologically driven to overeat certain foods more than they want to be thin or healthy. Foods like french fries and cake and soda and cookies and pizza and nachos and ice cream.

And on the ground, the way you stop overeating the types of food people overeat is to eliminate them. It just doesn't work to twll some morbidly obese teen to "only have a small glass of soda" or "a few french fries" or whatever. What works is getting their insulin stable for long periods of time via things like food elimination and intermittent fasting. Then they just simply reduce the calories in below the calories out. Of course, the drive to overeat certain macronutrient combinations is often invincible absent a metabolic ward setting.
Now I am not sure what you are arguing. You are right, I didn't make it clear how to stop overeating, and - you are right again and I have no argument against it - eliminating certain foods, those with high reward value, from the diet, is a good way to do it. I try drill it into every obese patient I come across. Yet, elimination is not the only way. Cigarette smokers switch to smoking cigars or electronic cigarettes; though not completely harmless, these options are still better than inhaling. We put drug addicts on replacement therapies, from methadone to benzodiazepines to antidepressants, it works in some of them. A lot of variation between individuals (and failure rate is very high).

It still doesn't change what I said earlier, that adherence to certain foods is habitual and that changing that requires considerable effort. Elimination works for some patients, but many cannot do it. They eventually blow up and stuff themselves with whatever food they are craving. That's why for some approach like in Carbohydrate Addict Diet book works better. Intermittent fasting, one meal a day, low intake twice a week a la Michael Moore or eight small meals a day - it all works. The key to success is compliance and negative calorie balance. I still stick with my point: whichever way you do it there is no way to avoid suffering, except surgery. The latter, I think, will become the mainstream in the next decade.

You mentioned that some people are physiologically driven to overeat on some foods. That's true, though we have this mechanism in us. Still, some overeat more than others, and I suspect the reasons for that are very complex. Johan Hari was arguing that addiction and depression have the same causes behind them, and I suspect food addiction is no different for many individuals.
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:17 pm

I couldn't agree with this more.
Sangoma wrote: It still doesn't change what I said earlier, that adherence to certain foods is habitual and that changing that requires considerable effort. Elimination works for some patients, but many cannot do it. They eventually blow up and stuff themselves with whatever food they are craving.
The decision is which form of suffering to choose. Which is more tolerable: eating less of the foods you overeat or not ever eating the foods you overeat.

It seems to me that the conflict comes down to on one side people in my camp (macro elimination) claiming too much benefit and scientific support. And people on the other side (CICO) failing to understand that there is a radically different physiological experience of appetite and hunger in some people (the number of whom is growing quickly).

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:41 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:11 pm
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:45 pm
Are you ok, Benny? Or are you swinging manic at this point?

I met Taubes and asked him about his foundation's study's results and he explained the researcher was an asshole. Which everybody viewed skeptically. He seems pretty beat down and unwilling to engage in talking about how carbs make you fat.

More interesting was the guy who wrote the Metabolic Basis of Cancer, or whatever that was. His explanation of his work was super interesting.
When I was listening to Rogan's interview with Taubes and Guyenet I was surprised by Taubes' lack of knowledge and the ability to argue his point. Guyenet was throing facts left, right and center, Taubes was blubbering something along the lines "don't you think it is reasonable to assume..."

Do you have a link/reference to the Metabolic Basis of Cancer work?
I'll try to look it up. The link below is the guy I met, he made a very compelling argument for being able to successfully treat cancers in a hyperbaric chamber by using both insulin to drive glucose levels to zero and another drug that drove glutamine levels to zero. I met him in person the day I met Taubes...he was far more interesting. I also met the Eades, who wrote Protein Power, which wasn't a bad diet book at all.

https://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Metabolic ... 0470584920

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:43 pm

Guyanet addressing the issue of hyper palatability is what you are looking for, maybe, Benny.

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Lych » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm

Doesn't anybody here remember Green Ghost's diet? I'm having trouble with it, but I thought it was something like;

- A breakfast burrito for breakfast
- A regular lunch
- A breakfast burrito at dinner to confuse your metabolism.

Not sure I got that 100% right, but it seems to be the ticket for healthy living and a good blood profile.

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:56 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:41 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:11 pm
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:45 pm
Are you ok, Benny? Or are you swinging manic at this point?

I met Taubes and asked him about his foundation's study's results and he explained the researcher was an asshole. Which everybody viewed skeptically. He seems pretty beat down and unwilling to engage in talking about how carbs make you fat.

More interesting was the guy who wrote the Metabolic Basis of Cancer, or whatever that was. His explanation of his work was super interesting.
When I was listening to Rogan's interview with Taubes and Guyenet I was surprised by Taubes' lack of knowledge and the ability to argue his point. Guyenet was throing facts left, right and center, Taubes was blubbering something along the lines "don't you think it is reasonable to assume..."

Do you have a link/reference to the Metabolic Basis of Cancer work?
I'll try to look it up. The link below is the guy I met, he made a very compelling argument for being able to successfully treat cancers in a hyperbaric chamber by using both insulin to drive glucose levels to zero and another drug that drove glutamine levels to zero. I met him in person the day I met Taubes...he was far more interesting. I also met the Eades, who wrote Protein Power, which wasn't a bad diet book at all.

https://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Metabolic ... 0470584920
Here's another guy working on this relationship. This is new to me but I have been reading for some time how fasting prior to and during chemo gets much better results. But I can't find anything on glutamine and fasting. The fasting may just initiate autophagy and send blood glucose very low.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... po=3.33333
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:43 pm
Guyanet addressing the issue of hyper palatability is what you are looking for, maybe, Benny.

I'm not a fan of that way of talking about it or conceiving it. It puts too much stress on the food. I really do think there is a physiologic change that occurs over time. But it isn't wrong. Even a person like Guyenet who is clearly "metabolically healthy" will experience some of what I am talking about when he eats those foods. But he can still relate to the experience with reason and cost/benefit analysis.

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Sangoma » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:09 am

Benny, can you elaborate on "metabolically healthy"? And otherwise.
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:32 pm

Plato wrote: In the beginning of this tale I divided each soul into three parts, two of which had the form of horses. Now of the horses we say one is good and the other bad; but we did not define what the goodness of the one and the badness of the other was. That we must now do. The horse that stands at the right hand is upright and has clean limbs; he carries his neck high, has an aquiline nose, is white in color, and has dark eyes; he is a friend of honor joined with temperance and modesty, and a follower of true glory; he needs no whip, but is guided only by the word of command and by reason. The other, however, is crooked, heavy, ill put together, his neck is short and thick, his nose flat, his color dark, his eyes grey and bloodshot; he is the friend of insolence and pride, is shaggy-eared and deaf, hardly obedient to whip and spurs.
I'm not a Plato guy, but I think the Charioteer metaphor is a good way to think about diet. And better than the rationalist one employed by most CICO focused people.

A "metabolically healthy" person is one whose left hand horse is docile. Either because he's deprived it of feed that riles jt up, or because it is by nature not very contrary, or some combination of those two things.

A "metabolically unhealthy" person is one whose left hand horse is out of hand. Either because he's given it feed that riles it up, or it is just extremely contrary by nature, or some combination of the two things.

To me, a guy like Guyenet (with respect to food) looks to have never dealt with a strongly contrary left hand horse. He may think he has, but I doubt it. He's probably been lean all his life and never experienced extreme irrational behavior wrt to food. Sure, he's probably had to consciously not eat certain things etc. But the way he approaches the subject makes me think he's never had his left hand horse just absolutely run amok.

Now, this might be because he's been mindful of diet since he was a child and his parents taught him to not let his left hand horse ever get out of hand. But it could also be that his left hand horse is just not that ornery.

Either way, he appears to not be able to conceive of dealing with a truly ornery horse.

Obviously, this isn't a physiological conception. But I really do think that diet causes physical changes which can cause the body to seek out certain macronutrient combinations and overeat them.

If you watch what fat people eat and how they eat it, it's very clear there is something irrational going on. There is some force that has carried them away and they are just along for the ride.

I also think we've all seen those lucky few who just naturally eat slowly and calmly.

Honestly, I defy anyone to carefully observe people these days and then argue that reason or will or consciousness plays a dominant role in diet.

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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by odin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:06 am

Lych wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm
Doesn't anybody here remember Green Ghost's diet? I'm having trouble with it, but I thought it was something like;

- A breakfast burrito for breakfast
- A regular lunch
- A breakfast burrito at dinner to confuse your metabolism.

Not sure I got that 100% right, but it seems to be the ticket for healthy living and a good blood profile.
I just read his draft book on the way back from Europe. His diet evolved to basically a steak a day and nothing else. Some supplements or butters I’d not heard of (US brands) but no other food. Dunno if it evolved past that
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:27 pm

odin wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:06 am
Lych wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm
Doesn't anybody here remember Green Ghost's diet? I'm having trouble with it, but I thought it was something like;

- A breakfast burrito for breakfast
- A regular lunch
- A breakfast burrito at dinner to confuse your metabolism.

Not sure I got that 100% right, but it seems to be the ticket for healthy living and a good blood profile.
I just read his draft book on the way back from Europe. His diet evolved to basically a steak a day and nothing else. Some supplements or butters I’d not heard of (US brands) but no other food. Dunno if it evolved past that
Ya, Lych you're thinking of Burrito Jimmy. Green Ghost was all meat and butter.
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Re: Carnivore diet post re: Dr Shawn Baker's bloodwork

Post by Lych » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:40 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:27 pm
odin wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:06 am
Lych wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm
Doesn't anybody here remember Green Ghost's diet? I'm having trouble with it, but I thought it was something like;

- A breakfast burrito for breakfast
- A regular lunch
- A breakfast burrito at dinner to confuse your metabolism.

Not sure I got that 100% right, but it seems to be the ticket for healthy living and a good blood profile.
I just read his draft book on the way back from Europe. His diet evolved to basically a steak a day and nothing else. Some supplements or butters I’d not heard of (US brands) but no other food. Dunno if it evolved past that
Ya, Lych you're thinking of Burrito Jimmy. Green Ghost was all meat and butter.
I stand corrected... how did I not remember Burrito Jimmy..... You are right.

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