Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:57 pm

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Bram » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:12 pm

I do not remotely think barbells are a necessity.

They are a tool, albeit a good one. Would be crazy to limit yourself to one tool, especially if you have access to more.

Barbells, dumbbells, cables, bands, machines, bodyweight, sleds, etc. can all be great. I don't enjoy training people at their homes primarily due to the limited lack of equipment, I rather would have an arsenal of choices.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:22 pm

Choice is good, but for most people, they have too many choices and lack the awareness to select wisely.

The simple, straight path is usually the best one and in the case of barbells, it's certainly true that it has the highest potential for strength and size development at lowest cost. A barbell is cheaper and takes up less floor area than a set of dumbbells or kettlebells, too.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:22 pm
Choice is good, but for most people, they have too many choices and lack the awareness to select wisely.
You have summed up a lot of my current political and sociological thinking in one sentence.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:49 pm

:-" I'm just making conversation.

But, it does relate to the Pisarenko interview I posed for Smet. All he wanted was to get jacked, but since bodybuilding was illegal in the USSR, he went out for weightlifting. In the end he got jacked alright, but he also became one of the lightest, strongest SHWs ever.

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Now, if you can get to a destination the long way or the short way, which way do you want to go? The long way takes more time, more energy, and more risk. The short way is faster, cheaper, and more certain. Which way Western man?
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:19 pm

I do want to call a bunch of bullshit on this whole idea that a barbell is somehow "more economical."

What is a decent bar now? 300 or so? And how much is 500 lbs in plates? And that is just a bar and some plates. How are you squatting it? You need a rack.....and a bench. What are we looking at price wise at this point?

That all adds up fast and I don't think it is significantly less than a set of KBs. Double 16s, 24s, 32s.

* I just checked. You can get a set of double 16s, 24s, 32s comp bells from perform better for about 650 not counting shipping. A barbell, rack, plates, etc. is going to be more than that. *

The most economical is still probably a chain gym. Here 30 bucks a month and under gets you access to great chain gyms.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:01 pm

You can get a 300 lbs. barbell set for $200 at Sport Authority. You just like being contrary.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:52 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:01 pm
You can get a 300 lbs. barbell set for $200 at Sport Authority. You just like being contrary.
Not one of the strongest or most well developed bodies were built with a 300 pound 200 dollar barbell set. From sports authority none the less.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:36 am

But being serious -

A bar and a 300 pound barbell set are not enough to get the results we've been talking about. I would say that the bare minimum to have everything you need is 500lbs, a rack, and a bench. A pull up bar somewhere. At that point you have enough to get as strong and built as you want.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:18 pm

newguy wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:52 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:01 pm
You can get a 300 lbs. barbell set for $200 at Sport Authority. You just like being contrary.
Not one of the strongest or most well developed bodies were built with a 300 pound 200 dollar barbell set. From sports authority none the less.
It worked for Bill Pearl and Tommy Kono. Both got well on their way to strongest and biggest on mail order barbells. Of course the other equipment you mention like racks and benches are great.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:18 pm
newguy wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:52 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:01 pm
You can get a 300 lbs. barbell set for $200 at Sport Authority. You just like being contrary.
Not one of the strongest or most well developed bodies were built with a 300 pound 200 dollar barbell set. From sports authority none the less.
It worked for Bill Pearl and Tommy Kono. Both got well on their way to strongest and biggest on mail order barbells. Of course the other equipment you mention like racks and benches are great.
I agree that you can get very far on a very basic set of equipment. The basic 315 barbell set. A heavy set of adjustable DBs (which tend to be expensive.) A decent set of KBs (for me thats double 16s, double 24s, double 32s)

In fact....I might even step back from my contrarian nature and say that realistically very few people really max out their 315 lb set. I can admit I never have.
----
A hypothetical question. All things being equal and cost not being a factor - which allows more potential for size, strength, and athletic development
* A basic 315 barbell set.
* A basic KB doubles set.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:04 pm

In my opinion, having done both, the 315 barbell set is the way to go. If all you ever did was various squats, pulls, presses, and jerks up to 315 lbs. you could become a stud. Somebody who can REALLY throw around 2 x 32 kg kettlebells certainly would be too, but the barbell man would both be and look stronger.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Dunn » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:41 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:04 pm
In my opinion, having done both, the 315 barbell set is the way to go. If all you ever did was various squats, pulls, presses, and jerks up to 315 lbs. you could become a stud. Somebody who can REALLY throw around 2 x 32 kg kettlebells certainly would be too, but the barbell man would both be and look stronger.
I can agree with that last statement. That said, while the BB guy will most likely look stronger, the cardio, muscular endurance, and general work capacity that come from that level of GS lifting will probably outshine the BB lifter unless they do more than the standard BB stuff. I say that from seeing it in action plenty of times in real life situations.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:59 pm

I'm really just taking a side to foment discussion on a discussion board.

I own and have used kettlebells extensively, and they are great. Not as great as some folks have touted them, but great nonetheless. Based on my life experiences, I see weight training as a way to get bigger and stronger, and that's about it. And for that, barbells are the best thing going by far.

I see endurance as something specific, and the best way to improve endurance is training the activity you wish to endure at, be it running, swimming, biking, rowing, etc.

The very best carryover from kettlebells I ever saw was to grappling, but it didn't do anything for swimming. That's why the second part of my argument is, after lifting, go outside and do something fun.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:16 am

No stands - what is a realistic squatting for reps weight? And not rocking the bar onto the shoulders.
Either cleaning it to a front squat or jerking it over and lowering to the back. And we are talking reps...20 reps let's say. So the weight doesn't have to be super heavy.

I seem to remember McCallum writing about 20 reps squats and he was talking about multiple sets with BW. Is that doable without stands?

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:44 am

newguy wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:16 am
No stands - what is a realistic squatting for reps weight? And not rocking the bar onto the shoulders.
Either cleaning it to a front squat or jerking it over and lowering to the back. And we are talking reps...20 reps let's say. So the weight doesn't have to be super heavy.

I seem to remember McCallum writing about 20 reps squats and he was talking about multiple sets with BW. Is that doable without stands?
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Milo Steinborn says about 550. You don't need stands, sawhorses or boxes are fine.

I dunno, really, it's different for everyone. I wouldn't want to do 20-rep front squats personally, that sounds like hell on the wrists.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Sangoma » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:38 am

The question is, how strong do you need to be. Barbells are great building max strength, but that's it. Kettlebells are great for building strength to some extent, but they go beyond the point where barbells stop, which is cardio. What's more important, a 250 kg deadlift or the ability to snatch 32 kg for 50 reps? I guess this is personal. Kettlebells are also time saving devices. As much as I dislike TGU that lift works lots of muscle at different angles and helps develop mobility and flexibility. Again, to a degree.

Most importantly, no barbell can be shaped like this:

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Dunn » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:14 am

N=1 but I’ve seen BB focused guys in the field lose it fairly quickly. Things like accidents & fires that require more work capacity left them gassed and at the recovery wagon fairly quickly. Hell, I’ve had to carry one guy out on a house fire because he dropped. The guy was pretty damn strong in the gym but his gas tank wasn’t built for longer duration work. Compare that to myself and the other guy who trained with me doing GS type stuff, we were strong enough to do the job but able to continually keep up with the work capacity demands as well. That kind of carryover just doesn’t happen with the standard approach to BBs.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by SubClaw » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:22 pm

Dunn wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:14 am
N=1 but I’ve seen BB focused guys in the field lose it fairly quickly. Things like accidents & fires that require more work capacity left them gassed and at the recovery wagon fairly quickly. Hell, I’ve had to carry one guy out on a house fire because he dropped. The guy was pretty damn strong in the gym but his gas tank wasn’t built for longer duration work. Compare that to myself and the other guy who trained with me doing GS type stuff, we were strong enough to do the job but able to continually keep up with the work capacity demands as well. That kind of carryover just doesn’t happen with the standard approach to BBs.
Playing the Devil's advocate here: if those guys followed some barbell endurance protocol (say, Bryce Lane's 50/20, singles and doubles on the minute for twenty minutes... whatever), maybe their gas tank would be more than enough.

It's not the tool, but how you use it.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Dunn » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:10 pm

Agreed, but we are talking about the vast majority of folks, most of whom simply don’t lift that way. This is why I have always referenced the standard BB lifts, ie what fats has listed in his previous posts. Also, while you can work endurance protocols with a BB, it doesn’t allow you to remain loaded with the weight the entire session which is where the kettlebell shines. But again, I do agree with your sentiment.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:31 pm

Seems to me that KBs are harder to learn and easier to get hurt with than BBs. In my brief foray into doing swings, I got hurt (back spasms so bad I had to go to the ER -- I mean I could barely move). People can say that if I'm that dumb I'd get hurt eating Twinkies but a lot of KB stuff seems really risky. I would like to get some of that carryover in a safer way.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:51 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:22 pm
Dunn wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:14 am
N=1 but I’ve seen BB focused guys in the field lose it fairly quickly. Things like accidents & fires that require more work capacity left them gassed and at the recovery wagon fairly quickly. Hell, I’ve had to carry one guy out on a house fire because he dropped. The guy was pretty damn strong in the gym but his gas tank wasn’t built for longer duration work. Compare that to myself and the other guy who trained with me doing GS type stuff, we were strong enough to do the job but able to continually keep up with the work capacity demands as well. That kind of carryover just doesn’t happen with the standard approach to BBs.
Playing the Devil's advocate here: if those guys followed some barbell endurance protocol (say, Bryce Lane's 50/20, singles and doubles on the minute for twenty minutes... whatever), maybe their gas tank would be more than enough.

It's not the tool, but how you use it.
I don't think so. First, Bryce's 50/20 is overrated for strength and endurance. And singles or doubles on the minute are overrated as well. They do not build endurance and the recovery isn't enough to build strength. This is a new opinion for me btw because I used to be all about that shit. It's an energy system thing. You are taking two different things and doing both of them poorly.

Probably the best thing you could do if you wanted to build endurance with a barbell is back squats for 5 minute sets. But at that point why not just go for a jog?

It's one of the things that makes KBs special. And I don't want to get back into the old KB wars...but maybe I do. The way they are shaped allow you to repeatedly "load" a movement without setting the bell down. You can move weight for a longer period of time and a higher amount of reps than you can with either a barbell or DB. Because you are using a lot of muscle, over a longer period of time, the aerobic system gets in on the action while also developing strength. You can do it with a light barbell but it is hard to get the rhythmic nature. You can't swing it between the legs. You can't rest it on the ribs.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Dunn » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:09 pm

newguy wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:51 pm
SubClaw wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:22 pm
Dunn wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:14 am
N=1 but I’ve seen BB focused guys in the field lose it fairly quickly. Things like accidents & fires that require more work capacity left them gassed and at the recovery wagon fairly quickly. Hell, I’ve had to carry one guy out on a house fire because he dropped. The guy was pretty damn strong in the gym but his gas tank wasn’t built for longer duration work. Compare that to myself and the other guy who trained with me doing GS type stuff, we were strong enough to do the job but able to continually keep up with the work capacity demands as well. That kind of carryover just doesn’t happen with the standard approach to BBs.
Playing the Devil's advocate here: if those guys followed some barbell endurance protocol (say, Bryce Lane's 50/20, singles and doubles on the minute for twenty minutes... whatever), maybe their gas tank would be more than enough.

It's not the tool, but how you use it.
I don't think so. First, Bryce's 50/20 is overrated for strength and endurance. And singles or doubles on the minute are overrated as well. They do not build endurance and the recovery isn't enough to build strength. This is a new opinion for me btw because I used to be all about that shit. It's an energy system thing. You are taking two different things and doing both of them poorly.

Probably the best thing you could do if you wanted to build endurance with a barbell is back squats for 5 minute sets. But at that point why not just go for a jog?

It's one of the things that makes KBs special. And I don't want to get back into the old KB wars...but maybe I do. The way they are shaped allow you to repeatedly "load" a movement without setting the bell down. You can move weight for a longer period of time and a higher amount of reps than you can with either a barbell or DB. Because you are using a lot of muscle, over a longer period of time, the aerobic system gets in on the action while also developing strength. You can do it with a light barbell but it is hard to get the rhythmic nature. You can't swing it between the legs. You can't rest it on the ribs.
Bingo. I’m not saying it won’t build some endurance but the KB’s shape definitely allows for maintaining the load for much longer times.

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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by Bram » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:46 pm

My best "oaf strong" was doing heavy for me squats (315), good mornings (225), bench (230) and accessory lifts. The accessory lifts were basically db and machine movements (curls, hamstrings, calves, lunges).

I could manhandle a lot of smaller people in BJJ, but people my own weight gave me trouble.

But my best "athlete strong" was doing heavy machines, dumbbells, a tiny bit of barbell work (but that was only shit like curls and rows), and running/sprinting.

I could toss my friends around wrestling or arm-wrestling and beat everyone of them at sports, even though some of them vastly outweighed me. This is notable because the whole reason I got into working out/nutrition was an atrocious resting state at athletics.

The tax on my system from doing heavy moderate-volume barbell work (and maybe the fact that I weighed 40lbs more), made me far less inclined to do much beyond lift and eat.
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Re: Why Aren't You Lifting Barbells?

Post by newguy » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:10 pm

Bram wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:46 pm
My best "oaf strong" was doing heavy for me squats (315), good mornings (225), bench (230) and accessory lifts. The accessory lifts were basically db and machine movements (curls, hamstrings, calves, lunges).

I could manhandle a lot of smaller people in BJJ, but people my own weight gave me trouble.

But my best "athlete strong" was doing heavy machines, dumbbells, a tiny bit of barbell work (but that was only shit like curls and rows), and running/sprinting.

I could toss my friends around wrestling or arm-wrestling and beat everyone of them at sports, even though some of them vastly outweighed me. This is notable because the whole reason I got into working out/nutrition was an atrocious resting state at athletics.

The tax on my system from doing heavy moderate-volume barbell work (and maybe the fact that I weighed 40lbs more), made me far less inclined to do much beyond lift and eat.
Not to discount what you are saying.....but things like this are hard to decipher without context. The problem is nothing exists in a vacuum. What you did before impacts what you are doing now. And the things are you are still doing are not only influenced by what you did before and now, but also by the fact that you are doing them longer.

It's the mix of adaptation lag and improvement over time. I'm sure there are russian studies and theories that address this from block periodization to whatever.

Here's what I mean...your best "athlete strong" phase. When was that compared to your oaf stage?
So during best athlete phase you were able to toss around your friends.
Was that because of what you were doing during the best athlete phase? Was it because the adaptation from your oaf phase was able to translate into your wrestling?
Or was it neither...was it just at that point you'd been wrestling long enough to finally beat people that outweighed you?

Or maybe it was none of that and it was something else?

Sports performance and the reason people perform well is not always easy to decipher.

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