Programs for the beginner runner

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Ripe Turd
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Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Ripe Turd » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:03 pm

I know some folks here are quite knowledgeable about the running game.

Does this look like a good program to begin running to you? The author says it's better to train 3 energy systems and do less distance/time, to develop better technique, than to do the classical "build up volume" with aerobic training only.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by newguy » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:17 pm

The author is probably wrong.

It depends on age, fitness level, background, etc. And goals. What is the goal? Are you looking to just run a 5/10K and then be done with running? Looking to build running into your life? What is the weight of the runner? There is a huge difference between a 28 year old 175 pound guy who used to run cross country in high school versus a 240 pound 40 year old who never really ran and has spent the past 20 years pretending to be a powerlifter.

In general for an adult taking up running I think a far more conservative approach with the goal being building running into a regular part of your life is best.

https://www.wholelifechallenge.com/the- ... -13-weeks/

This is probably the best template for how to go about it and depending again on the fitness level, background, etc. I would consider running each phase twice.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:29 pm

I'm weary of any advice to ad lactate level training to a newbie runner. New runners get injured because of too much, too soon. That's even more true for intensity as it is for volume. Newguy's advice is pretty solid. Your main goal as a new runner is to build consistency without injury. Consistency is the key to every single goal in fitness, from losing weight to setting lifting PR's to being competitive at endurance sports. And nothing kills consistency quicker than injury or burnout. Too much volume or intensity when starting out can lead to both.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by newguy » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:14 pm

Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:29 pm
I'm weary of any advice to ad lactate level training to a newbie runner. New runners get injured because of too much, too soon. That's even more true for intensity as it is for volume. Newguy's advice is pretty solid. Your main goal as a new runner is to build consistency without injury. Consistency is the key to every single goal in fitness, from losing weight to setting lifting PR's to being competitive at endurance sports. And nothing kills consistency quicker than injury or burnout. Too much volume or intensity when starting out can lead to both.
And I am leery of the suggestion that a newbie to anything can somehow target or develop any specific energy system.

At the early to even average ability levels, you just don't have enough strength/conditioning to develop anything. It' why beginners can build endurance "sprinting" and build speed doing "slow" runs. At the beginning you can build speed and endurance by just adding BW squats at the end of every run.....until you are developed everything builds everything.

And since that is the case in the early stages just do the conservative, safest form of training, reap the benefit of beginners gain without the risk of injury too much too soon, be it volume or intensity.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by aussie luke » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:38 am

newguy wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:17 pm
The author is probably wrong.

It depends on age, fitness level, background, etc. And goals. What is the goal? Are you looking to just run a 5/10K and then be done with running? Looking to build running into your life? What is the weight of the runner? There is a huge difference between a 28 year old 175 pound guy who used to run cross country in high school versus a 240 pound 40 year old who never really ran and has spent the past 20 years pretending to be a powerlifter.

In general for an adult taking up running I think a far more conservative approach with the goal being building running into a regular part of your life is best.

https://www.wholelifechallenge.com/the- ... -13-weeks/

This is probably the best template for how to go about it and depending again on the fitness level, background, etc. I would consider running each phase twice.
I was going to link to that plan too. It took me from absolutely zero to running 30-45 minute daily runs with no injuries. Once I got to that point I just continued to do easy runs most days and ended up running a couple of reasonable half marathons (1:45)

Best thing I did was run only on grass for as long as I could - when I got to the 10 min intervals I started to venture onto roads.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Turdacious » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:19 pm

Only comment is this-- add the Ebbetts foot drills daily.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Sua Sponte » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:10 pm

All of it. Too complicated. Pick a distance you think you can do. A mile. Or two. Or half. Or a quarter. Start running at an easy pace. When you get winded stop and walk until you feel better then start running again until you're winded. Iterate until you hit your distance. Do this 2-4 times per week until you can cover your selected distance, then increase the distance. When you can run 2 to 4 miles steady state then engage in some sort of program. Or not. It's fucking running.

Wanna get fancy? Everyday add in a 45-60 minute walk at whatever pace that tickles you.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 am

Sua Sponte wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:10 pm
All of it. Too complicated. Pick a distance you think you can do. A mile. Or two. Or half. Or a quarter. Start running at an easy pace. When you get winded stop and walk until you feel better then start running again until you're winded. Iterate until you hit your distance. Do this 2-4 times per week until you can cover your selected distance, then increase the distance. When you can run 2 to 4 miles steady state then engage in some sort of program. Or not. It's fucking running.

Wanna get fancy? Everyday add in a 45-60 minute walk at whatever pace that tickles you.
If you are fit and even a little heavy or not a natural runner you will put too much stress on your feet/ankles/knees before you get winded. And you won't know it until it's too late.

It's why the intuitive method doesn't work for beginning running.

You need a progressive approach that starts you well below your limit to give time for all those little things to adapt.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:42 am

^^^I don't know about that man. A reasonable grown up should be able to get into running following a common sense approach. I did. There's nothing wrong with following a program but Lord knows it's not necessary. It reminds me of how KBs were supposed to be self-explanatory until certs took off and then even looking at one wrong would injure you horribly if you didn't pay chest-greasy lie-bucks for special training.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by nafod » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:27 am

A lot of the early stuff is about building up toughness in the body, especially connective tissue. Toughness I think is an underrated fitness measure. Super easy to get out ahead of it.

When I trained up for my marathon, it was interesting to note how each longer distance stressed the body in a way different from all the previous stuff. Even things like chafing from shorts. No substitute for the mileage.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:34 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:42 am
^^^I don't know about that man. A reasonable grown up should be able to get into running following a common sense approach. I did. There's nothing wrong with following a program but Lord knows it's not necessary. It reminds me of how KBs were supposed to be self-explanatory until certs took off and then even looking at one wrong would injure you horribly if you didn't pay chest-greasy lie-bucks for special training.
Years of jujitsu toughened your ligaments until they could handle loads normal people couldn't.

FACT.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:07 am

Bodyweight makes a big difference here. Running on flat ground should be avoided if the trainee is too heavy and also unfit. The pounding on the body will do damage quickly. It will also be impossible for them to learn anything like reasonable form and do all kinds of things in a way that will cause even more damage. Overweight people usually don't have the power/weight ratio to take even a shortened stride correctly, so what happens is they come to a jarring mini-stop every stride, causing a lot more stress on the feet and knees. One way around these problems is to do hill sprints. These can work well if the slope is about 10 percent. More than that and there may be too much strain on the achilles tendon. Leaning into the hill a little, plus the acceleration, forces you into a position where you don't have the heavy foot strike and sharp deceleration with each stride. Power, proprioception, form, and conditioning can be increased quickly.

Here's how I used them for regaining capacity after a knee injury. At 240 lbs. and unfit except for long walks, jogging was out for the above reasons. I found a hill and did this: About six reps of about 40 yards, the first two or three for warmup and then going for a fast one for 2-4 reps, stopping when I hit a PR or my time dropped off. I improved quickly and this increase in power and coordination made it possible to add tempo runs of 200 yards on grass, 4-6 reps, walkback recovery. That got me to where I could have added some trail runs.

TL;DR: Fat or unfit people can't "just run", they'll get hurt. They have to build up capacities first.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by SubClaw » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:22 am

Sua Sponte wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:10 pm
All of it. Too complicated. Pick a distance you think you can do. A mile. Or two. Or half. Or a quarter. Start running at an easy pace. When you get winded stop and walk until you feel better then start running again until you're winded. Iterate until you hit your distance. Do this 2-4 times per week until you can cover your selected distance, then increase the distance. When you can run 2 to 4 miles steady state then engage in some sort of program. Or not. It's fucking running.

Wanna get fancy? Everyday add in a 45-60 minute walk at whatever pace that tickles you.
Now this is EXCELLENT advice!!!
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by aussie luke » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:12 pm

Another option could be to run (jog) 1km a day.

Barely even take any thinking about and should take you about 7-8 minutes if you’re unfit.

You could do it without even bothering to get changed into running gear.

How many days would it take before you start thinking about running 2kms?

Like the run/walk plans - do it to build up the connective tissue and build some strength in the calves and shins etc then add more when ready

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:21 pm

newguy wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:34 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:42 am
^^^I don't know about that man. A reasonable grown up should be able to get into running following a common sense approach. I did. There's nothing wrong with following a program but Lord knows it's not necessary. It reminds me of how KBs were supposed to be self-explanatory until certs took off and then even looking at one wrong would injure you horribly if you didn't pay chest-greasy lie-bucks for special training.
Years of jujitsu toughened your ligaments until they could handle loads normal people couldn't.

FACT.
I got into running before jiu-jitsu.

FACT.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:06 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:21 pm
newguy wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:34 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:42 am
^^^I don't know about that man. A reasonable grown up should be able to get into running following a common sense approach. I did. There's nothing wrong with following a program but Lord knows it's not necessary. It reminds me of how KBs were supposed to be self-explanatory until certs took off and then even looking at one wrong would injure you horribly if you didn't pay chest-greasy lie-bucks for special training.
Years of jujitsu toughened your ligaments until they could handle loads normal people couldn't.

FACT.
I got into running before jiu-jitsu.

FACT.
The soft sands of Hawaii allowed you to handle loads normal people couldn't.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Sua Sponte » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:17 pm

Geebus. Gone one day. What I wrote assumes you're structurally intact. Common sense says don't run on hard surfaces. If you're so fat you can't run then walk. Eventually throw in 50m jogs. Build. All physiological structures will build accordingly. Principle is the same. If you can't do that LOSE FUCKING WEIGHT first. More important than running by far. I mean c'mon. Don't make the exception the rule. And no canned program takes any of that into account anyway.

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:24 pm

Sua Sponte wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:17 pm
Geebus. Gone one day. What I wrote assumes you're structurally intact. Common sense says don't run on hard surfaces. If you're so fat you can't run then walk. Eventually throw in 50m jogs. Build. All physiological structures will build accordingly. Principle is the same. If you can't do that LOSE FUCKING WEIGHT first. More important than running by far. I mean c'mon. Don't make the exception the rule. And no canned program takes any of that into account anyway.
This is what I'm saying. The internet, and the modern age in general, has robbed people of their inherent intuition. People think that unless they follow some canned protocol, they'll get AIDS and die. There's nothing wrong with a reasonable level of trial and error and the honing of good judgment that comes with it.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Ripe Turd » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:14 pm

Thanks all! I started the plan newguy posted and the Ebbetts foot drills daily. Normally I tend to use an approach similar to sua sponte, fuck up my calves and be unable to walk straight for a week :Hangman:
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Protobuilder » Sat May 02, 2020 5:10 am

Better advice in responses than in initial program.

If you really, really, really want something to follow, do some kind of MAF program for 6-8 weeks and find out what happens. Strap your hrm on and go out for whatever distance you can repeat near daily or for as long as you have time for, walking if required. You want to develop consistency and get things in order before you concern yourself with intervals at specified reps, etc, etc, etc.
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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by aussie luke » Sat May 02, 2020 4:10 pm

Protobuilder wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:10 am
Better advice in responses than in initial program.

If you really, really, really want something to follow, do some kind of MAF program for 6-8 weeks and find out what happens. Strap your hrm on and go out for whatever distance you can repeat near daily or for as long as you have time for, walking if required. You want to develop consistency and get things in order before you concern yourself with intervals at specified reps, etc, etc, etc.
Trouble with MAF is it’s so fucking goddamn frustrating. Especially when new to running and you end up walking at the slightest hint of an incline, or go too hard down a hill only to spike on the flat... can make you want to give up pretty quick.

The nose breathing works well and gives you less to worry about - just walk for a bit if you find yourself needing to breathe through your mouth.

I’ve found MAF works better once you’ve built up to running for a solid time or distance and built the skill of running and the muscular endurance for it - ie you can run a while without form going to shit or shin/calf fatigue etc

...then worry about HR

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Re: Programs for the beginner runner

Post by Protobuilder » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:09 am

aussie luke wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:10 pm
Protobuilder wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:10 am
Better advice in responses than in initial program.

If you really, really, really want something to follow, do some kind of MAF program for 6-8 weeks and find out what happens. Strap your hrm on and go out for whatever distance you can repeat near daily or for as long as you have time for, walking if required. You want to develop consistency and get things in order before you concern yourself with intervals at specified reps, etc, etc, etc.
Trouble with MAF is it’s so fucking goddamn frustrating. Especially when new to running and you end up walking at the slightest hint of an incline, or go too hard down a hill only to spike on the flat... can make you want to give up pretty quick.

The nose breathing works well and gives you less to worry about - just walk for a bit if you find yourself needing to breathe through your mouth.

I’ve found MAF works better once you’ve built up to running for a solid time or distance and built the skill of running and the muscular endurance for it - ie you can run a while without form going to shit or shin/calf fatigue etc

...then worry about HR
Summer is probably not the best time to initiate some kind of MAF training.

I like it for beginners though because it's quantitative. I do agree that it works better when you are able to do a bit of distance. I feel that a lot of the people who like MAF have come to approach it in the way that people used to evangelize Hardgainer protocols for lifting - the goal should be to increase mileage enough to get something out of what you're doing.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.

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