Hill Sprints

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 2297
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by newguy » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:04 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:52 am
re: quicker vs. faster, I guess I was mostly thinking about faster. Running from or after someone. I was up to 235, I'm now about 225, looking to drop to 205. I'm reconciled with the idea that I will never be fast, but I could be faster than I am, and for fun I would like to try.
Don't overthink it.

Rotate a few of these things in during different runs -
1. accelerations - try to, during different points of your run, run faster. Don't be overly mathematical about this but you could try to work up to 8 to 10 accelerations during a run. You could try to hold the speed for a little longer. Mix up the speeds too. Don't head into sprint territory, but go really faster, a little faster, etc. One of the keys to this though is that when you are done with an acceleration, you don't walk. You go back to your normal running pace.
2. Timed distances. During your run, mark a segment that every so often you run faster during. Try to drop that time as the weeks go on. So it might be during the middle of the run you time from old mother hubbard road to cowboy bob sign. And as the weeks go on, try to get that time down. It shouldn't be something that is too short, and it shouldn't be something that is too long. I'd say anything that starts from a 15 to 20 minute block that you whittle down. The key here is to try and hold a faster than normal speed for as long as you can. You can walk to recover after this one.

Rotate one and two. Or try one once each week.

If you are not, end every run with a "faster" block. Run faster than your regular pace at the end of each run, ideally ending in an almost out and out sprint. As the weeks go on, extend the length/time that you hold this faster component.

As time goes on you will notice two things, your ability to speed up and run harder increases.That will make you feel fast. And your normal running speed will also start to feel easier and will naturally get quicker.

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:54 pm

Fwiw, I've been doing 3 sets of hindu squats every morning (30 sec rest interval). Not to failure but to got damn this burns lvl. Maybe 2-3 more reps in tank? Idk but jfc it makes the quads burn. Huffing and puffing heart pounding stuff.

Actually, it's pushups/hindus/leg raises in a circuit then rest. And the circuit is done 3-4 times.

So, the point is, I go for about an hour hike after this as well. There's a hill. Steep. It's near the end of the hike. Today I remembered this thread. I ran up it. I flew up the damn thing. Posture different as well. It felt completely different. I could hear my toes going bap bap bap on the cement but not joint pounding.

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 2297
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by newguy » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:40 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:54 pm
Fwiw, I've been doing 3 sets of hindu squats every morning (30 sec rest interval). Not to failure but to got damn this burns lvl. Maybe 2-3 more reps in tank? Idk but jfc it makes the quads burn. Huffing and puffing heart pounding stuff.

Actually, it's pushups/hindus/leg raises in a circuit then rest. And the circuit is done 3-4 times.

So, the point is, I go for about an hour hike after this as well. There's a hill. Steep. It's near the end of the hike. Today I remembered this thread. I ran up it. I flew up the damn thing. Posture different as well. It felt completely different. I could hear my toes going bap bap bap on the cement but not joint pounding.
How long have you been doing the circuit?

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:03 pm

Pushups and hindus about 6 weeks? Roughly. Leg raises about a month.

First it was 3 sets of pushups then the squats with a minute rest btwn sets. Then added leg raises. Then dropped to 30 secs rest. Then went to pushups/hindus/legraises as a cycle resting btwn.

I don't count reps. I just go hard and focus on long deep breaths and try to leave two reps in the tank. But I usually push set one pretty hard.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:05 pm

It's a good way to go. Old school Lancashire wrestlers wouldn't get too into exact reps but would do it like GS, for a certain time at a certain tempo sometimes even set to a metronome. They brought that shit back from the colonies where they had served, and used the metronome in place of the mantras that the Indians used.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:39 pm

How was the metronome used? Did they do a rep every say 5 secs?

I wish I figured this not counting thing out when I was young. It is a real difference maker.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:20 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:39 pm
How was the metronome used? Did they do a rep every say 5 secs?

I wish I figured this not counting thing out when I was young. It is a real difference maker.
Yea, you would pick a moderate tempo you felt you could keep up with and then do it for a specified time, like five minutes of continuous pushups or ten minutes of continuous squats. The set tempo forces you to maintain a certain pace, whether comfortable or not, for the entire time but it also has the effect being a bit entrancing.

PS There are metronome apps for your phone.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:33 pm

But are the individual reps done at a regular tempo or slowly?

I've done 1 minute up and 1 minute down pullups and pushups.

But I could also imagine say... do a normal speed rep pause for a bit til the metronome dings and then do another.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:40 pm

Tik...tok...up...down. Does that make sense? As in you would match your movement to a certain rhythm set by the metronome. It's harder than it sounds.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:35 pm

I've messed with that before. Mostly at very slow speeds though. Which I'd bet is a lot different. But I understand thanks. I'll try it out.

If you know of a demo, I'd appreciate a link.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:41 pm

I do not, but I will keep my eyes open. The information is direct from Billy Robinson and he was a Lancashire trained wrestler from Wigan. It's on his W.A.R. DVD series.
Last edited by Fat Cat on Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Sua Sponte
Gunny
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:12 am

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Sua Sponte » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:13 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:59 pm
Not being a jerk but you are slow because you are overweight, old, doing too much other training and probably have a slow cadence and short stride (same boat I'm in). If you want to be fast 1) lose a lot of weight 2) drop all other weight training 3) increase your cadence and 4) increase your stride.
This is solid. At 58 and trying to get back to higher levels of (running and hiking) endurance it's surely true for me that anything and everything not aimed at the primary goal takes away from it. While this has always been true it's become disproportionately true with age. More so with each year.

I've dropped all weight training but higher-rep overhead presses. I've rolled back to decades old Army cals; chins, push-ups and sit-ups (yes, sit-ups). While this is also an extra stress it's much less a stress than even easy strength type stuff. I don't want to lose all semblance of overall body 'fitness.'

Running or not, losing weight as you get older is a big win. I've never been truly heavy but have carried an extra 10 to 15 lbs over the last several years and dropping it has made me feel quicker and faster on my feet. Just better overall. Might go down another 10.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:37 pm

Sua Sponte wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:13 pm
Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:59 pm
Not being a jerk but you are slow because you are overweight, old, doing too much other training and probably have a slow cadence and short stride (same boat I'm in). If you want to be fast 1) lose a lot of weight 2) drop all other weight training 3) increase your cadence and 4) increase your stride.
This is solid. At 58 and trying to get back to higher levels of (running and hiking) endurance it's surely true for me that anything and everything not aimed at the primary goal takes away from it. While this has always been true it's become disproportionately true with age. More so with each year.

I've dropped all weight training but higher-rep overhead presses. I've rolled back to decades old Army cals; chins, push-ups and sit-ups (yes, sit-ups). While this is also an extra stress it's much less a stress than even easy strength type stuff. I don't want to lose all semblance of overall body 'fitness.'

Running or not, losing weight as you get older is a big win. I've never been truly heavy but have carried an extra 10 to 15 lbs over the last several years and dropping it has made me feel quicker and faster on my feet. Just better overall. Might go down another 10.
I get what you're saying with regard to dropping weight and being more mobile; that's what I'm working on now and it's paying off. That said, dropping weight is mostly a matter of diet. As long as you monitor calories and adhere to weight-loss levels, you will lose weight.

As far as calisthenics being a superior choice to weights, I can't agree that one is easier on the body. With barbells, dumbbells, and--if you're a faggot--kettlebells, you can choose a safe weight to start at, whereas with calisthenics you're stuck with bodyweight no matter what. A halfway intelligent person can find a way to get active using either approach, but I see no reason why one is superior given the selectorized nature of weight training. Personally, I do both and will be finishing my bench pressing workout tonight with dumbbell bench, LTEs, flys, and pushups.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Sua Sponte
Gunny
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:12 am

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Sua Sponte » Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:02 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:37 pm

I get what you're saying with regard to dropping weight and being more mobile; that's what I'm working on now and it's paying off. That said, dropping weight is mostly a matter of diet. As long as you monitor calories and adhere to weight-loss levels, you will lose weight.

As far as calisthenics being a superior choice to weights, I can't agree that one is easier on the body. With barbells, dumbbells, and--if you're a faggot--kettlebells, you can choose a safe weight to start at, whereas with calisthenics you're stuck with bodyweight no matter what. A halfway intelligent person can find a way to get active using either approach, but I see no reason why one is superior given the selectorized nature of weight training. Personally, I do both and will be finishing my bench pressing workout tonight with dumbbell bench, LTEs, flys, and pushups.
There's no doubt that controlling one's eating is the best way to fat loss. Wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

I set a goal to do some tougher hikes in the mountains around here come summer. Many weeks back I started to increase endurance work. No real pace increase but longer runs and weighted hikes. After a few weeks I was amazed how little progress I was making. No real increase in stamina and not recovering very well. So cut back on the number of weight lifting sessions. Some improvement in stamina and recovery. Cut back on the number of exercises. Again some endurance improvements. Eliminated weight lifting and things took off pretty well. Nothing miraculous but steady progress. Kept this up for a handful of weeks but was feeling weaker in the upper body especially. Sometime back I posted a couple of links to a Bill Starr article (I'll have to look for it.) suggesting older guys should go to lighter weights and much higher rep ranges. Gave this a go. Had some but a relatively small negative impact on endurance training. But the weights were light enough and the reps high enough figured I'd just go body weight but kept in high-rep OHP because cals don't cover that well. As by this time I'd added plenty of hill runs (10-20% grade, steady state running, and 30-40% grade steady state hiking) I left out any lower body, even body weights squats and lunges. Has been working pretty well these past few weeks - good progression both in endurance and cals. Further benefit of no appetite spikes that come for me when I engage in heavy lifting or high intensity running. Big plus when wishing to drop weight. Time will tell if I will go back to weights but certainly at higher reps.

I'm a sample space of 1 and there are many confounding variables not accounted for; sleep, food, the impact of any particular exercise on endurance (I asked in your log once if you found squats interfered with your running/hiking as it always has for me, regardless of age), loss of a family member, running a business (especially these last 8-10 weeks), travel, alcohol consumption, relationship strife.... pick something. YMMV.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:55 am

Sua Sponte wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:02 am
There's no doubt that controlling one's eating is the best way to fat loss. Wasn't trying to imply otherwise.
That's me mostly talking to myself because it's been my biggest blind spot for the longest time. "No diet only more train!" I am now finally making strides in the right direction.
Sua Sponte wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:02 am
I set a goal to do some tougher hikes in the mountains around here come summer. Many weeks back I started to increase endurance work. No real pace increase but longer runs and weighted hikes. After a few weeks I was amazed how little progress I was making. No real increase in stamina and not recovering very well. So cut back on the number of weight lifting sessions. Some improvement in stamina and recovery. Cut back on the number of exercises. Again some endurance improvements. Eliminated weight lifting and things took off pretty well. Nothing miraculous but steady progress. Kept this up for a handful of weeks but was feeling weaker in the upper body especially. Sometime back I posted a couple of links to a Bill Starr article (I'll have to look for it.) suggesting older guys should go to lighter weights and much higher rep ranges. Gave this a go. Had some but a relatively small negative impact on endurance training. But the weights were light enough and the reps high enough figured I'd just go body weight but kept in high-rep OHP because cals don't cover that well. As by this time I'd added plenty of hill runs (10-20% grade, steady state running, and 30-40% grade steady state hiking) I left out any lower body, even body weights squats and lunges. Has been working pretty well these past few weeks - good progression both in endurance and cals. Further benefit of no appetite spikes that come for me when I engage in heavy lifting or high intensity running. Big plus when wishing to drop weight. Time will tell if I will go back to weights but certainly at higher reps.
Yeah, that was Starr's three part article, which is really him reiterating things he learned from Jack Lalanne, who's the real mamajama when it comes to training for health, beauty, and vital longevity. In truth, everyone who trains with weights and who isn't a competitive strength athlete should include a variety of rep ranges at various times. From old school approaches like Doug Hepburn and Hugh Cassidy to new school approaches like Westside or 5/3/1, it's just one of those "best practices" Blaidd Jewrrg talks about. Even Lalanne recommended working in the 6-8 rep range, the 8-12, and the 12-16 rep range in varying months. As for the bodyweight vs. weight training, my feeling is it's best not to be dogmatic, and it seems like you get that, given your mixture of the two.

But as an aside, I would say that anytime you're trying to pursue two goals (tougher hikes vs. heavier weights) you're gonna find yourself sucking at both. You're too old for that to have come as much of a surprise. [-X But that doesn't mean that heavy weights are a bad idea just because you're 58.
Sua Sponte wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:02 am
I'm a sample space of 1 and there are many confounding variables not accounted for; sleep, food, the impact of any particular exercise on endurance (I asked in your log once if you found squats interfered with your running/hiking as it always has for me, regardless of age), loss of a family member, running a business (especially these last 8-10 weeks), travel, alcohol consumption, relationship strife.... pick something. YMMV.
All we really have in this life is N = 1. :partyman:
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

User avatar
Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 20934
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Turdacious » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 am

https://robertsontrainingsystems.com/bl ... ty-cardio/
One of the biggest lessons I've learned here is simple-- the heart is a dumb muscle. Any focus on LISS will yield benefits for fat loss-- whether running at a slow pace, swimming, rucking, drinking chocolate martinis, cycling, hiking with your boy, etc... and help your running more than hill sprints.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

Sua Sponte
Gunny
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:12 am

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Sua Sponte » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:49 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:55 am

But as an aside, I would say that anytime you're trying to pursue two goals (tougher hikes vs. heavier weights) you're gonna find yourself sucking at both. You're too old for that to have come as much of a surprise. [-X But that doesn't mean that heavy weights are a bad idea just because you're 58.
Not so much surprised I can't do two things well, that holds true for me under most any circumstance, but I am surprised at the degree of interference between the two. I can only lay that on age until a better excuse comes along.

I don't think heavy weights are bad for me at all. I think heavy weights bring almost to a halt progress on a defined goal while lighter weight/higher reps don't. Time will tell if the lightweight/high rep stuff, when advanced enough, ends up with the same outcome. For now, I'm just following the data.

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21169
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:29 pm

Hill sprints can also be that thing that takes away more than it gives.

Hey Benny, do you still have those push up handles you made that you had to balance on?

motherjuggs&speed
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:08 am

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:44 pm

I would say the higher the intensity the greater the risk that it will cross over into "takes more than it gives" territory. For me hill sprints were entirely positive, the faster I got the better I performed overall. But weights were different: As my 1RM bench went up I felt better and had more non-gym work capacity until I hit 255 lbs., at which point it started to take more out of me. Next time I'll try to accept that reality instead of continuing to push.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:50 am

Turdacious wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 am
https://robertsontrainingsystems.com/bl ... ty-cardio/
One of the biggest lessons I've learned here is simple-- the heart is a dumb muscle. Any focus on LISS will yield benefits for fat loss-- whether running at a slow pace, swimming, rucking, drinking chocolate martinis, cycling, hiking with your boy, etc... and help your running more than hill sprints.
I'm doing plenty of LISS, three or four times a week. Fat loss is coming through diet. I want to actually be faster.
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:56 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:29 pm
Hill sprints can also be that thing that takes away more than it gives.

Hey Benny, do you still have those push up handles you made that you had to balance on?
Whoah. You mean the metal one like a Rail Road Track see-saw? Gave it away to an mma guy in Vegas years ago. And it wasn't my idea. I made mine but another dude had the idea.

Pretty easy. A "U" shape with flat bottom is the pivot. Then run two metal bars in parallel with the "U" welded to the middle of each. Weld cross beams at ends and then another set somewhat further in. It was about 8-10 inches wide and shoulder width long. That was a great little tool. I'ma make another one.

Bars were about as thick as an oly bar.

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:10 am

Sua I think that was this Starr article series?

https://billstarrarticles.wordpress.com ... ng-part-1/

And I really do believe that speed is about not carrying any extra weight: muscle or fat. 20 yr olds can do it for sprints kinda but after 30? And anything over 100m? I doubt it. As Van Aaken said: it's about heart size vs weight.

The extra weight lifting is going to tire you out but also put on muscle. That is going to slow you down.

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:13 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:50 am
Turdacious wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 am
https://robertsontrainingsystems.com/bl ... ty-cardio/
One of the biggest lessons I've learned here is simple-- the heart is a dumb muscle. Any focus on LISS will yield benefits for fat loss-- whether running at a slow pace, swimming, rucking, drinking chocolate martinis, cycling, hiking with your boy, etc... and help your running more than hill sprints.
I'm doing plenty of LISS, three or four times a week. Fat loss is coming through diet. I want to actually be faster.
What so you mean by faster? 100m? 400m? Mile? 5k? All very different. All need to super leanness. The longer ones need one to drop muscle.

Do you want to be faster than you are now? Or run a 6min mile? Not same same obv.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39105
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:01 am

Let's say closer to the 100 m. And we've covered the leanness, you'll get no argument from me. But surely, to get faster at running you have to do some running?
Image
"Remember that you have no companion but your shadow." -Genghis Khan

Bennyonesix1
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Hill Sprints

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:16 am

Oh yeah. Though I think the sprints require the least actual running. I was just curious.

Post Reply