Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

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Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu May 14, 2020 9:01 pm

I don't know how many of you remember the good Dr. Greg Ellis, diet and nutrition guru to such fitness stars of yesteryear and Steve Maxwell. He was actually a contributor on DragonDoor and was one of the reasons they started their nutrition subforum. Anyway, he was so obnoxious and abusive to anyone who challenged him that he ended up getting run off the forum, which in a way was too bad, because he was extremely knowledgeable.

Because I've been focusing more on diet of late, I revisited his book Ultimate Diet Secrets (https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Elliss-Ultima ... y+S.+Ellis) and it got me wondering. Did the good Dr. Ellis have it right all along? His basic approach is:

1. The first law is caloric balance; you must reduce calories to lose weight and increase them to gain weight. Nothing can change this.

2. The second law is that a low carbohydrate, higher fat diet is the easiest way to use a reduced calorie diet because it is the most satisfying and the most healthful, and because it promotes a shift to lipolysis in the body's chemistry. He recommends 60-80 g per day as the most sustainable level, while acknowledging that fewer would be preferable. His sweet spot is 13% of total caloric intake: figure out your Base Metabolic Rate for your target weight, multiply x .13, then divide by 4 to reach the number of grams of carbohydrates you should take in daily. So for me, 2270 total calories, 295 calories of carbohydrate, or 73.7g would be his sustainable recommendation.

3. Zero carbohydrate diets take things too far and are not sustainable for most people, not because they are unhealthy (they're not), but because they require too much self denial for most people.

4. Despite the conventional wisdom of the day, that exercise is not an important component of weight loss, he argues it is because it allows one to eat a comfortable number of close-to-maintenance calories, and then nudge the body over the line into weight loss by burning additional calories on the margins and improving body composition. It also is, obviously, good for other health markers as well.

After that, his recommendation is:

1. Get mean drunk.
2. Shitpost on the web.
3. ???
4. Profit

So far, I've lost 10 pounds in 5 weeks following his recommendations (by accident), and he seems to have covered the bases very well in that he takes a compromise position between a lot of more extreme ones and provides a great deal of science to support his ideas. Does anyone ever consider his work anymore?
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Fri May 15, 2020 5:06 am

He's going to show up like Beetlejeuce if this thread goes on too long.

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/nutrition ... ition.html
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by newguy » Fri May 15, 2020 2:39 pm

Greg Ellis..... I wonder what he is up to now?

He wasn't wrong. He knew his stuff.

And, despite questionable photo fashion choices, he maintained a great physique.

But, to throw it out there, you can get all the benefits of lowering your calories without ever worrying about carbs. The snickers and vodka diet will leave you thin. And possibly happy.

Are carbs even a factor?

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Turdacious » Fri May 15, 2020 2:50 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:06 am
He's going to show up like Beetlejeuce if this thread goes on too long.

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/nutrition ... ition.html
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Greg drank deep from the fitness guru cup.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri May 15, 2020 3:13 pm

Ellis jumped on the bandwagon a bit early.

Hofmekler and he just missed the boat for making lots of money with a diet book.

But overall his strategy is as valid as anything else out there. He was just a maniac

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri May 15, 2020 5:34 pm

Newguy, who are you? Obviously you've been around a long time, under what name? PM if you don't want to say here, I'm genuinely curious.
newguy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:39 pm
And, despite questionable photo fashion choices, he maintained a great physique.
The suspenders kill! \:D/
newguy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:39 pm
Are carbs even a factor?
He argues strongly that yes, they are an important factor. They don't trump the calorie balance, which is his First Law, but radically reducing carbohydrate will allow your body to control hunger, improve its ability to break down fat, and have a generally positive metabolic effect such as reducing the potential for: obesity, cardiopulmonary disease, dental caries, high blood pressure and stroke, diabetes mellitus, certain types of cancer, etc.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri May 15, 2020 5:37 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:13 pm
Ellis jumped on the bandwagon a bit early.

Hofmekler and he just missed the boat for making lots of money with a diet book.

But overall his strategy is as valid as anything else out there. He was just a maniac
The interesting thing about Ellis is first that he walked the walk and while he was an absolute madman, a true megalomaniac, his approach was actually a very intelligent compromise between more entrenched positions (e.g., vegetarian vs. carnivore, high carb vs. high protein, count carbs vs. count calories). Whereas his personal style was black and white, I think his 100/100 nutrition approach was pretty sensitive to human nature and humane in its approach.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Croatoa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:22 pm

Damn. Talk about a blast from the past. I remember having Ellis book back in the day along with ori’s first book and Rob Faigin’s NHE diet book. Image
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:33 am

I had all of them too. Ellis is probably mostly correct, but yes, he is a megalomaniac. I have a lot of respect for him though for actually doing the stuff, running diet experiments on himself.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:55 am

Ellis was the one with the 'odd' relationship with his 'daughter'?

Speaking of weird shit, who remembers "figureskater" and how she basically told the dragondoor forum her uncle had been molesting her for her whole life.

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:11 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:55 am
Ellis was the one with the 'odd' relationship with his 'daughter'?

Speaking of weird shit, who remembers "figureskater" and how she basically told the dragondoor forum her uncle had been molesting her for her whole life.
Hahaha wut? Can you expand a bit on both of your sentences?
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Gene » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:15 pm

Ellis.... maybe he really did get hit by a bus? Still remember how Greg's lady squeeze wailed when Garm tossed that grenade down the hallway.

I use Phinney and Volek. Seven years and counting.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low- ... 057&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low- ... 083&sr=8-3
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:07 pm

The links look interesting. What did you like about Phinney and Volek, specifically?
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Gene » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:07 pm
The links look interesting. What did you like about Phinney and Volek, specifically?
They stick to science. They give you sources if you want to go see them. If you don't want to dive in to the science they break it down for you.

They use their own methods. Both of them have been eating this way for years.

Lots of practical "been there, done that" knowledge. What to eat. What doesn't work. Most modern vegetable oils are crap, traditional oils are best.

They talk about primitive peoples who ate this way. Pacific North West folks with Candle Fish grease. Plains Indians with Pemmican.

What supplements to buy, how to use them. I had leg cramps. They suggested "Slow Mag". I went, "I don't need that". I tried Magnesium Chloride, didn't work. I tried Magnesium Oxide, I crapped myself a lot. I tried Magnesium Aspartate. Didn't work. Bought Slow Mag. It's all I use now. The stuff has a binder that slows absorption. That got me to stop being headstrong.

I don't know if Ellis ever once talked about the Atkins Flu. Phinney and Volek went into pages about how it happens and what to do about it. Atkins flu is caused by Starvation Natriesis, you dump sodium. Atkins flu is annoying, makes me jumpy and it's hard to focus. Sleep is awful.

Big deal, a glass of salt water a short while before bed. I wake up the next day fine.

They advised a certain kind of meter, a glucose and keto monitor. I also do blood checks. My Triglycerides fell hard. I have normal blood pressure.

The athletic book is useful. They go into heavy detail about reactive oxygen species, how it's different when you burn more ketones than normal folks. What they noted agrees with my experience. I used to really hurt after I ran, like I was smothering. I don't have that problem now. I do not understand exactly why. I just roll with it.

They do caution that endurance sports could be a problem on low carb. I don't do those, folks who run long distance might have a problem or not.


What they don't talk about is the mental parts. My mind changed a lot after using this stuff. I feel clearer in the head, except when I'm sleep deprived, then I'm kind of stupid. I feel more "feral'. I noticed more stuff in my environment. I'm not meaner, the opposite really.

I am glad that I bought their books. I've handed out copies to friends.

You can get a peek if you go to Amazon and click on the image of the book. It'll show you the table of contents and what is in the book.

I'm better for having met these two. Maybe it will work for you.


Here's a website that they run.

https://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:55 pm

We have sig names for a reason and I expect you to use mine. I appreciate the information, but edit your second to last sentence and don't do that again.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:15 am

There is some interesting research about low carb in athletes. Though it seems to be heavily biased. My personal experience with heavy endurance stuff (girevoy sport) on low carb was pretty dreadful, even though I gave it long enough time.

Everything else was pretty good though - digestive function, appetite control etc.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:23 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:15 am
There is some interesting research about low carb in athletes. Though it seems to be heavily biased. My personal experience with heavy endurance stuff (girevoy sport) on low carb was pretty dreadful, even though I gave it long enough time.

Everything else was pretty good though - digestive function, appetite control etc.
How long did you give it?

I had the same wrt endurance (not heavy tho).

But it's been over a year for me on very very low carbs and when I recently tried some endurance stuff (rowing) I did very well from a subjective feeling perspective. I am objectively crap at this point. But not to an unexpected level. Honestly did better than I expected.

I ate a lot of fat beforehand fwiw: 1/2 and 1/2.

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:56 pm

There have been enough people, both among elite athletes and traditional societies, who have managed exceptionally high levels of endurance on low carbohydrate diets that it's not impossible. Usually, people have not given themselves long enough to adapt or have not consumed enough fat in their diet, but the whole Maffetone Method is based on it.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:20 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:56 pm
There have been enough people, both among elite athletes and traditional societies, who have managed exceptionally high levels of endurance on low carbohydrate diets that it's not impossible. Usually, people have not given themselves long enough to adapt or have not consumed enough fat in their diet, but the whole Maffetone Method is based on it.
Van Aaken did it better and simpler. And yeah. He had his runners eating meat and eggs and maybe milk.

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:31 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:56 pm
There have been enough people, both among elite athletes and traditional societies, who have managed exceptionally high levels of endurance on low carbohydrate diets that it's not impossible. Usually, people have not given themselves long enough to adapt or have not consumed enough fat in their diet, but the whole Maffetone Method is based on it.
I have many stories of low carb athletes. Tim Noakes mentions quite a few serious ones in his presentations. The question is, are these guys select few who thrive on it or is low carb beneficial for the majority.

I gave it about four months while doing timed kettlebell sets. That was hard. There is also data that low carb kills the ability to sprint.

As I said though, aside from intense exercise I felt great. Except that high fat gives me a heartburn.

There are couple of studies now showing that keto diets may be best for losing fat while preserving muscle mass. Some recommend cycled low carb - adding carbs on intense training days, some BJJ guys I know do that. Cycling carbs in general seems to be beneficial for physical activity.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:35 pm

4 months does not seem to be long enough anecdotally.

The heartburn may be bile excess because of the fat. I need to give myself a few hours before lying down to sleep after eating fat.

*edit*

4 mnths is a loooong time to eat a weird diet like Carnivore ( what i do) so not being critical.

At the same time it seems not long enough to adapt.

A year is more likely.

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:24 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:31 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:56 pm
There have been enough people, both among elite athletes and traditional societies, who have managed exceptionally high levels of endurance on low carbohydrate diets that it's not impossible. Usually, people have not given themselves long enough to adapt or have not consumed enough fat in their diet, but the whole Maffetone Method is based on it.
I have many stories of low carb athletes. Tim Noakes mentions quite a few serious ones in his presentations. The question is, are these guys select few who thrive on it or is low carb beneficial for the majority.

I gave it about four months while doing timed kettlebell sets. That was hard. There is also data that low carb kills the ability to sprint.

As I said though, aside from intense exercise I felt great. Except that high fat gives me a heartburn.

There are couple of studies now showing that keto diets may be best for losing fat while preserving muscle mass. Some recommend cycled low carb - adding carbs on intense training days, some BJJ guys I know do that. Cycling carbs in general seems to be beneficial for physical activity.
Let me not pose as an expert, I just find this all very interesting.

First, I think it's safe to say that low carbohydrate diet (LCD) can be very healthy, and can curb--significantly--the types of problems most likely to affect people's health, like obesity, hypertension, CPD, and Type 2 diabetes mellitus. And it is also fair to say that, in general, a healthy body is the foundation of higher performance, although not all people who can perform highly are healthy. So, LCD passes the first hurdle.

Second, there's this question of different responses. There are, more or less, two schools of thought: people are all the same, or people are all different, when it comes to optimal dietary choices and function. I tend to come down on the side of the "all the same" camp. Sure, there are some differences in enzyme lactase and other things, but human biochemistry is remarkable similar across the board. So, I think that it's unlikely that there really are a "select few" that can thrive on LCD, and everybody else has to stick to oats. It's much more likely that some people observe an LCD far more effectively, and thus have adapted better to it, that being a function of both adaptation curve and time.

Third, carbohydrate cycling seems to me to be very unlikely to be a good thing. You are fundamentally asking your body to periodically un-do the adaptation to fat burning via ketogenesis and go back to glucogenesis. I know some people claim benefit, but to me I can't understand it, it seems to me like it should do the opposite, and it definitely isn't representative of those populations that have incidentally followed LCD in the past with excellent results.

Just bullshitting here so tell me where I'm wrong.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:37 pm

The cardiologist I work with mocks me for giving every obese patient with type 2 diabetes a lecture on low carb. It's a waste most of the time, but the point is that yes, low carb is very beneficial for quite a large group of people. I cringe when I come across a "non-insulin dependent diabetic" who is getting a bunch of pills and... insulin.

One of the most recent drugs, Jardine, works by fucking up kidney function so that you excrete the sugar at a lower threshold. Curiously, this drug improves survival. So instead of taking less in you can open up some channels and get rid of it. In a way similar to throwing up after a big meal.

As far as same versus different, what I meant there are some physically gifted folk who will be great athletes even you feed them raw barley or dog pellets. Vegan lifters etc. I don't know if there is any logic in this.

From the dead beaten horse point of view, evolution, low carb does make sense. The most available example for me, aboriginals, used to consume the same amount of sugar in a year that they now can get in an hour. Consequences are not good.
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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:37 pm

That's a solid post fat cat

Yeah. I agree with that. But I'm no expert either.

There's a lot going on. What is the optimal diet for a given athletic event? Idk. It might be CKD. You can't equate overall heathy with athletically optimal. Athletically optimal is often really unhealthy.

But yeah, I do think the diet with the least negative repercussions is meat.

And that ppl can not adhere because carbs and even greens are "addictive" in the sense that removal from the diet causes negative subjective sensations.

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Re: Was Dr. Greg Ellis Right About Everything?

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:29 pm

Fat Cat

Ellis had some Biden-esque photos of himself with his hands on odd places on his daughter. Garm picked this ball up and hounded Ellis mercilessly IIRC, despite the fact Garm liked low carb diets.

Figureskater..

On the old DD forum this username appeared, she claimed she was a teen, a competitive figure skater, and she used Pavel's materials to help her improve her skating, especially Naked Warrior stuff.

Conversation went around and around, with finally Pavel extending an invitation for her to come to an RKC cert at a discount, but she claimed she couldn't leave town unless her uncle when with her and that is how she would travel to competitions. And it kind of worked its way around that her uncle was this slave driving perfectionist that was verbally and sometimes physically abusive...and the RKC forum members, to their credit told her that wasn't ok, and started throwing up abuse hotlines and shit...and then she dropped the little bomb, and claimed that her uncle was so protective and obsessed he made her sleep in the same bed as him, and she had to wear a specific outfit to bed, it was basically panties and a camisole, then the big bomb dropped when she said she didn't know why she had to wear it, as he would usually rip it off her in the middle of the night before he made her do her niecely duties.

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