Stuff that works

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dingleberry
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Stuff that works

Post by dingleberry » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:12 pm

I started with the Maffetone method of running in February after I foolishly signed up for a trail half marathon without much running.

My max pulse was at 133, the first 4 weeks or so it forced me to run around 11:30 miles. All tracked with a Garmin Fenix 3.

Since April after the event was canceled because of the Viral Boogeyman, I added 5/3/1 with the bodyweight assistance template. Kept up the weekly mileage at about 15.

Fast forward to June 3 and I answered a Garmin online challenge to run 100 miles in June. It's now June 17 and I have logged 74 miles whilst continuing the 5/3/1.

My average pace has dropped to around 9 minute miles and I'm down about 15 pounds since February and that's eating and drinking whatever I feel like.

For reference, I'm 51 y/o and 5'8" at 176 pounds currently. 5/3/1 weights are not impressive but climbing and runs feel easy on bad knees. Blood pressure and resting pulse are also way down.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:26 pm

Nicely done. Is your pulse staying at 133 at the new speed?
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Bram » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:50 pm

Way to go!

Simple and consistent.

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by dingleberry » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:54 pm

Thanks,

Pulse has stayed at 133 or less for the increase in speed. In fact, my legs give up before my heart and lungs and it's difficult to increase pulse much past 145.
nafod wrote:I do find I am spending more and more time in the bathroom in the morning, just staring at myself and wondering if I am pretty.

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Turdacious » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:05 am

Very nice!
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Sangoma » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:00 am

This is impressive. I mean the ability to stick to the plan long enough to see the result. I keep planning (thinking mostly) to start running MAF way, but my laziness so far has been taking over.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by aussie luke » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:17 pm

I’d be interested to see an (impossible) comparison if you’d just run without monitoring hr.

And have you ran before or did you simply get better and faster at running?

While I get the whole Maffetone thing and have done it before - for as long as I could before it drove me mental - I wonder if at 15 miles a week you could or would be better to run at a comfortable pace on the day.

I researched this a lot when I was doing a lot of erg rowing, and it seemed to me if you’re “only” doing a few short sessions a week you’d be better to be pushing closer to your anaerobic threshold than going too easy - instead of doing a lot of easy volume and a small amount of high intensity/interval/speed work, just doing a reasonable amount at medium effort.

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Gav » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:21 am

Luke, you can force yourself to run at MAF pace just by keeping your mouth closed when you run.
The shorter anaerobic type training works well in events up to about 90 minutes but you could still benefit from having a bigger aerobic engine anyway. If the body always burns a percentage of fat and carbs to fuel your effort, once you start getting past that duration it’s better if your aerobic ‘engine’ is bigger. Check out polarised training, a lot of people are getting good results. It would appear to be the best of both worlds.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by aussie luke » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Gav wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:21 am
Luke, you can force yourself to run at MAF pace just by keeping your mouth closed when you run.
The shorter anaerobic type training works well in events up to about 90 minutes but you could still benefit from having a bigger aerobic engine anyway. If the body always burns a percentage of fat and carbs to fuel your effort, once you start getting past that duration it’s better if your aerobic ‘engine’ is bigger. Check out polarised training, a lot of people are getting good results. It would appear to be the best of both worlds.
Yeah I’m referring to polarised training - and that there needs to be a lot of volume for it to be beneficial

...and if you’re doing less volume eg 1-2 hours a week you’d be better going slightly harder

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Gav » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:44 pm

Ok so we’re on the same page but let’s be honest whatever you you do for 1-2 hours a week you’re not going to improve that much.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:50 pm

Gav wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:44 pm
Ok so we’re on the same page but let’s be honest whatever you you do for 1-2 hours a week you’re not going to improve that much.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by newguy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:21 pm

Gav wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:44 pm
Ok so we’re on the same page but let’s be honest whatever you you do for 1-2 hours a week you’re not going to improve that much.
3 to 4 half hour runs a week and you won't improve?

Maybe it won't move you from elite to world class, but your average trainee will get improvement with 2 hours of an activity a week. It's more than enough stimulation to move the needle.
Last edited by newguy on Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by JimZipCode » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:52 pm

dingleberry wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:12 pm
I started with the Maffetone method of running in February ...
Alright, it's been enough years that I'm finally tired of being the dumb kid in the class. What does this mean?
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by newguy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:03 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:52 pm
dingleberry wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:12 pm
I started with the Maffetone method of running in February ...
Alright, it's been enough years that I'm finally tired of being the dumb kid in the class. What does this mean?
The short version

Phil Maffetone - worked with triathletes and runners, one of the ones who pioneered heart rate training.

The main gist is that you need to put in a lot of miles and time in the low end of your heart rate so you build your aerobic base. Think 180 minus your age and then even lower for most.

At the beginning you don't want to ever exceed this. Lots and lots of long, slower miles.

Problems I've seen - when dealing with good athletes (like he was coaching) this means lot's of long SLOWER miles. Not slow. Slower. They keep running in this low heart rate, they build a great aerobic base, and then when they race and speed up it's a lot of good things.

For most of us regular people it is not a lot of long slower miles but long and SLOW, really slow miles. Lot's of walking. Lots and lots of walking. Because we are not developed enough to even run slowly without spiking our heart rate. So we start to jog a little...heart rate kicks up...we then have to walk. Again. And again. For a long, long time.

The problem that comes is you never really get in enough running miles or time to improve. Especially if you are a bit heavier, weren't a high school runner, etc.

But for people who are fit enough to run slowly without spiking the heart rate (or bike slowly) then it is a great method because you get in a lot of time in that zone that develops fitness.

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Gav » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:31 pm

newguy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:21 pm
Gav wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:44 pm
Ok so we’re on the same page but let’s be honest whatever you you do for 1-2 hours a week you’re not going to improve that much.
3 to 4 half hour runs a week and you won't improve?

Maybe it won't move you from elite to world class, but your average trainee will get improvement with 2 hours of an activity a week. It's more than enough stimulation to move the needle.
It depends what you mean. A newbie yes, an athlete no.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by dingleberry » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:19 pm

For reference, I have always had a relatively slow heartrate with or without training.

Weekly mileage ranged from 15 to 30 average.

For June most of my weeks have been in the upper range because I wanted to run less often.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Sangoma » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:15 am

Maffetone claimed that a lot of high level runners improved after switching to his method. According to him many found it hard to run so slowly, but over time the speed at a given HR gradually increased.

I agree with Newguy, several half hour runs a week are not useless. Sure, not the elite athlete level, but who here is elite anyway? For me adding couple of half hour runs twice a week improves my ability not to die on the BJJ mat a little longer. That's good enough for me.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:38 am

JimZipCode wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:52 pm
dingleberry wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:12 pm
I started with the Maffetone method of running in February ...
Alright, it's been enough years that I'm finally tired of being the dumb kid in the class. What does this mean?
Think Easy Strength (Mafettone's approach was invented, tested and applied much, much, much earlier) applied to the endurance world.

Niko-Niko running is quite similar too.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:40 am

Sangoma wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:15 am
Maffetone claimed that a lot of high level runners improved after switching to his method. According to him many found it hard to run so slowly, but over time the speed at a given HR gradually increased.

I agree with Newguy, several half hour runs a week are not useless. Sure, not the elite athlete level, but who here is elite anyway? For me adding couple of half hour runs twice a week improves my ability not to die on the BJJ mat a little longer. That's good enough for me.
Agreed. Doing five easy 5Ks a week is plenty.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:30 pm

5/3/1 works
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:17 pm

I will say longer rucks with a 30# pack, with a heart rate between 85-105 (depends on speed, I don't get past 105 unless I'm on a hill now) has really dropped my resting heart rate.

This time last year, was between 59-63 RHR, today I am between 49-53 RHR.

This is just me with a pack, walking my dogs, basically, sometimes I push the pace, sometimes I just walk.

I do other cardio shit, and other weight shit, but this was a 3-5x weekly consistent 60-90 minutes of rucking

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by nafod » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:15 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:17 pm
I will say longer rucks with a 30# pack, with a heart rate between 85-105 (depends on speed, I don't get past 105 unless I'm on a hill now) has really dropped my resting heart rate.

This time last year, was between 59-63 RHR, today I am between 49-53 RHR.

This is just me with a pack, walking my dogs, basically, sometimes I push the pace, sometimes I just walk.

I do other cardio shit, and other weight shit, but this was a 3-5x weekly consistent 60-90 minutes of rucking
I ruck all the time. Love it and the feeling of being under load, but not a crushing load.

Constantly working on my iPod playlist, grabbing new music, then I go ruck and listen to it. It's turned into a serious relaxing ritual, almost daily.

When my wife walks the dog, I go along wearing the backpack.

In the winter, I bring extra clothing and emergency stuff and go for real walks in the woods.
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Re: Stuff that works

Post by newguy » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:12 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:17 pm
I will say longer rucks with a 30# pack, with a heart rate between 85-105 (depends on speed, I don't get past 105 unless I'm on a hill now) has really dropped my resting heart rate.

This time last year, was between 59-63 RHR, today I am between 49-53 RHR.

This is just me with a pack, walking my dogs, basically, sometimes I push the pace, sometimes I just walk.

I do other cardio shit, and other weight shit, but this was a 3-5x weekly consistent 60-90 minutes of rucking
Shaf - were you actively or passively monitoring your heart rate? Meaning were you trying to keep it in that 85-105 range or did it just happen to fall in that range?

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:34 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:17 pm
I will say longer rucks with a 30# pack, with a heart rate between 85-105 (depends on speed, I don't get past 105 unless I'm on a hill now) has really dropped my resting heart rate.

This time last year, was between 59-63 RHR, today I am between 49-53 RHR.

This is just me with a pack, walking my dogs, basically, sometimes I push the pace, sometimes I just walk.

I do other cardio shit, and other weight shit, but this was a 3-5x weekly consistent 60-90 minutes of rucking
This would be more Van Aaken than maffetone i think. I think Van Aaken is better in every way.

Low ab work just flat out works. I've never looked back after getting talked into trying the Pilates mat routine. Sorted out my back and hips and flexibility. I do 9 sets of 3 diff exercises at a solid effort without counting reps everyday. Usually leg raises to start as the bread and butter then whatever. I make sure and turn my feet out "at the hips" to shut off the flexors amap. Really helps with overall movement.

Check out one of the old Fed Astaire or Gene Kelly movies and you can see the dudes move from their lower abs. Hard to not notice once you see it.

I'd wager money that speed and football type athletic ability correlates strongly to lower ab strength and activation.

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Re: Stuff that works

Post by Cayenne » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:40 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:34 pm
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:17 pm
I will say longer rucks with a 30# pack, with a heart rate between 85-105 (depends on speed, I don't get past 105 unless I'm on a hill now) has really dropped my resting heart rate.

This time last year, was between 59-63 RHR, today I am between 49-53 RHR.

This is just me with a pack, walking my dogs, basically, sometimes I push the pace, sometimes I just walk.

I do other cardio shit, and other weight shit, but this was a 3-5x weekly consistent 60-90 minutes of rucking
This would be more Van Aaken than maffetone i think. I think Van Aaken is better in every way.

Low ab work just flat out works. I've never looked back after getting talked into trying the Pilates mat routine. Sorted out my back and hips and flexibility. I do 9 sets of 3 diff exercises at a solid effort without counting reps everyday. Usually leg raises to start as the bread and butter then whatever. I make sure and turn my feet out "at the hips" to shut off the flexors amap. Really helps with overall movement.

Check out one of the old Fed Astaire or Gene Kelly movies and you can see the dudes move from their lower abs. Hard to not notice once you see it.

I'd wager money that speed and football type athletic ability correlates strongly to lower ab strength and activation.
Bennyonesix1, can you recommend a basic resource (e.g., YouTube?, DVD?) that presents the simple, basic Pilates mat routine? TIA

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