Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

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Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:50 pm

Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 2783-11-20

Pretty interesting review of available data on recommendations for competitive natural bodybuilders, some may find useful or entertaining.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 pm

" Finally, competitors should be aware of the increased risk of developing eating and body image disorders in aesthetic sport and therefore should have access to the appropriate mental health professionals."

I think they reversed the causation.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 pm

WHAT HAPPENED TO LYLEZ?

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:23 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 pm
" Finally, competitors should be aware of the increased risk of developing eating and body image disorders in aesthetic sport and therefore should have access to the appropriate mental health professionals."

I think they reversed the causation.
Directionality is always a challenge to assess.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:14 pm

Lyle is going strong on Facebook.

The worst thing about natural bodybuilding is that Casey Butts was SPOT ON when it came to how much lean body mass a natural lifter could build.

If you're heavier you're either fat or using drugs, or both.

LULZ

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:48 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:14 pm
The worst thing about natural bodybuilding is that Casey Butts was SPOT ON when it came to how much lean body mass a natural lifter could build.

If you're heavier you're either fat or using drugs, or both.
The funny thing about this is the former frauds who can't get away with claims in the S&C community any more just make them on YouTube. That Greg Doucette dude is just calling out liars like a juiced angry Gilbert Godfried and it's pretty entertaining.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:11 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:14 pm
Lyle is going strong on Facebook.

The worst thing about natural bodybuilding is that Casey Butts was SPOT ON when it came to how much lean body mass a natural lifter could build.

If you're heavier you're either fat or using drugs, or both.

LULZ
I remember like it was yesterday T200's reaction when I was asking about natural bodybuilding: "LOL. Natural bodybuilding is a joke."

It took me a long time, but that never really left me, and I've more or less come to accept the truth of it. Natural bodybuilding, while a totally reasonable way to have a pleasant looking and healthy body, offers results which are so modest that most people will not be able to justify the effort. A 6 foot, male natural bodybuilder will look positively scrawny in clothes and maybe tip the scales around 180 lbs. and possibly a bit less. The absolute peak might resemble someone like Max Sick or even Jack Lalanne, but these guys were 5'5"manlets in the 130-150 lbs range.

All of the bodybuilders that are held up as examples of successful natural bodybuilding like Grimek, Reeves, Park, and Yorton were all gassed up on testosterone or derivatives. Bottom line, as a natural weight trainer, pick two:

-Big
-Strong
-Lean

You don't get all three without drugs, and don't bother coming at me with the "rare genetic superior" bullshit.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Luke » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:03 am

New in the Generation Iron franchise is Generation Iron: Natty 4 Life which hilariously features Mike O'Hearn saying he's all natural forever.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agE0f6ROWyU[/youtube]

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:55 pm

Luke wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:03 am
New in the Generation Iron franchise is Generation Iron: Natty 4 Life which hilariously features Mike O'Hearn saying he's all natural forever.


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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:01 pm

It would be good if someone would make a simulator showing people what they would actually look like at a certain weight, and what their bf% actually would be. At 185 I was already too fat: I weighed 165 at 19. I didn't like being a skinny, scrawny runt but being a disgusting bag of shit is worse.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:59 pm

The 21st century version of the Charles Atlas ad transformation: "That bully kicked sand in my face! I'll get even". Off our hero goes to the gym. He sees all those hardbodies with their queen of spades ink working out with their, um, trainers. Mac works hard for six months and is still weak. Less weak, but nowhere near strong. He decides to lean in to his feelings of helplessness and inadequacy and embrace his natural place in the food chain. In the last panel he is back at the beach, devouring black fuckmeat under the pier. His former gf sees him:"Oh Mac! You are a real pathetic loser after all!"

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:51 pm

Hearn, while I doubt is natural, is a definite freak of nature. He has held that condition for like 25 years.

I've seen far better bodies built with, gasp, Crossfit.

Remember Glassman's old saying

For amount of muscle
Bodybuilders on steroids
Crossfitters on steroids
Crossfitters no drugs
Bodybuilders no drugs

This turned out to be a very real thing. Low levels of bodyfat are an assumption here.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm

That connects with something I've been thinking lately. We all have a lot of training concepts in our heads but where do you see the best builds on guys who don't seem genetically gifted and also not on the program? Guys who do physical jobs. The best I ever looked, by far, was when I was working construction. Since most people who aren't elite do far better with volume vs intensity, and since most people, myself included, tend to puss out far too quickly in the gym, maybe it's better to have a volume approach, only instead of doing sets of eight or whatevs, what about much longer sets of lower intensity?

I had the thought recently that I should get a sandbag and some farmer's walk thingies, probably DBs with fatgripz, and just walk with those about a half mile to the river and back. Since I'm not going to get yoked anyway, certainly not at this point, maybe that would be a better way to rightsize me.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:12 pm

Personally, I think powerlifting style training combined with a low carbohydrate, high protein diet and lots of Zone 2 cardio is probably the sweet spot for both looking and being strong.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by motherjuggs&speed » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:59 pm

What's your body type Kitty? I'm wondering how much different types need different things.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:46 pm

6' 220 lbs right now. I'm generally a doughy type, classic endomorph but it depends a lot on how I train. When I was running and swimming a lot, I got down to high 170s, but still didn't look "lean". I actually look leaner now, because I have a lot more muscle, and carry less water with low carb. In general, what has worked best for me:

1. Don't be fat. It doesn't matter how you train, if you're fat, you'll look like shit. Eat meat, eggs, vegetables, moderate dairy and fruit. Avoid starches and sugars and booze. The last one is my kryptonite but I've cut it by 30% recently and am seeing good results.

2. Program key lifts like a PLer, so that you make real progress over the long term, and do them first. This is consistent with guys as diverse as P. Tsatsouline, A. Faleev, and D. Hepburn.

3. After the main lift(s), do pumping exercises bodybuilding style. This is where you curl, fly, lateral raise, etc. These should be done to get a pump and shape, building muscles that are aesthetic, provide balance, and assist the main lifts.

4. Easy LISS cardio > HIIT for fat loss and health. It's fine to do intense stuff once in a while, but long walks or jogs should be daily or close to it.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Luke » Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:49 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:51 pm
Hearn, while I doubt is natural, is a definite freak of nature. He has held that condition for like 25 years.
This is the funny thing right, the concession I make is he's been on top of his game for such a long time, those results are probably less down to juice than haters think. A 25 year old supposedly told him "I'll look like you at 50!" and he said you don't look like how I looked at 25 so you won't.

Motherjuggs, may I ask how you fixed embedding that video?

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Luke » Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:59 am

motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm
That connects with something I've been thinking lately. We all have a lot of training concepts in our heads but where do you see the best builds on guys who don't seem genetically gifted and also not on the program? Guys who do physical jobs. The best I ever looked, by far, was when I was working construction. Since most people who aren't elite do far better with volume vs intensity, and since most people, myself included, tend to puss out far too quickly in the gym, maybe it's better to have a volume approach, only instead of doing sets of eight or whatevs, what about much longer sets of lower intensity?

I had the thought recently that I should get a sandbag and some farmer's walk thingies, probably DBs with fatgripz, and just walk with those about a half mile to the river and back. Since I'm not going to get yoked anyway, certainly not at this point, maybe that would be a better way to rightsize me.
FWIW, Fred Hatfield said when it comes to training there's good, better, best and best in his mind was strongman training.

You don't have to throw everything out at once to change tack; work in farmers walks etc. the day after main lifts. I've been doing it since Covid and it's been awesome. Training outside is fun and helps clear the head too.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:20 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:51 pm
Hearn, while I doubt is natural, is a definite freak of nature. He has held that condition for like 25 years.

I've seen far better bodies built with, gasp, Crossfit.

Remember Glassman's old saying

For amount of muscle
Bodybuilders on steroids
Crossfitters on steroids
Crossfitters no drugs
Bodybuilders no drugs

This turned out to be a very real thing. Low levels of bodyfat are an assumption here.
I always attributed this primarily to Glassman figuring out how to train legs optimally. Especially for women. Is there any sense to that?

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:26 pm

I agree with the strongman and manual labor advice.

I attribute it to hand and forearm strength and size. These seem to be a real limiting factor on overall growth for non-juiced. Pure anecdotal observations from me.

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bram » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:23 pm

I think unless you've done it yourself, the results of a strict, effective diet WITH a solid workout program will always seem unrealistic.

My diet is very much whatever these days. But I've seen myself lean (around 6% body fat) from 165 to 215 at 6'3", and it never was independent of my nutrition. Right now I'm at 205 and maybe 10%.

But if every thing you eat is helping you keep muscle and minimize fat storage, that shit adds up after a few weeks or months.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by nafod » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:43 pm

motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:59 pm
The 21st century version of the Charles Atlas ad transformation: "That bully kicked sand in my face! I'll get even". Off our hero goes to the gym. He sees all those hardbodies with their queen of spades ink working out with their, um, trainers. Mac works hard for six months and is still weak. Less weak, but nowhere near strong. He decides to lean in to his feelings of helplessness and inadequacy and embrace his natural place in the food chain. In the last panel he is back at the beach, devouring black fuckmeat under the pier. His former gf sees him:"Oh Mac! You are a real pathetic loser after all!"
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Sangoma » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:33 am

It's curious how "looking good" standards drift over the years. By modern standard Grimek probably wouldn't be able to get through the preliminary stage of some State bodybuilding competition. No visible veins, no muscle striations. Taking few decades back, Cristopher Reeve was looking good enough to be a Superman, a far cry from what's expected today.

In female body image it's even more strange. Try find Crossfit looking andro girl on a classical painting.
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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by newguy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:39 am

Would

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Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by odin » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:46 am

I find a lot of protocols work to maintain muscle if you built some in your yoot. Diet is the key factor as how you look. Currently on a low volume high frequency thing with quite a few high intensity techniques. It’s working fine although equally I could prob get same effect from different approaches
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