Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

User avatar
powerlifter54
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7966
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: TX

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by powerlifter54 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:26 pm

Interesting subject, and have read it and tried almost all of it.

1. Genetics. You can train right and be on the sauce but if you don’t have the genetics you will not look like the top of any era.
2. Drugs. To get bodybuilder big, and I am not talking Ronnie or Dorian I am talking strip bar bouncer big, you need the sauce.
3. Nutrition. You need to eat a lot to be big. On the sauce you need more protein, but natty you have to be a diet freak to look dialed in.
4. Training. Take the first 3 and train pump and squeeze, hard and heavy, HIT, or volume, and on the sauce you can succeed. Getting show ready is about diet, discipline, cardio, and electrolyte management. Natty you have to ride the lightning, and your margin of error is way narrower here, on frequency and load vs recovery.

If you are Natty like I was, you can put a lot of muscle on if your frame allows it and you take years to do it. I have a world class Lower body. 45 years of work and genetics. I have a below average upper body. Same years and effort just bad muscle attachment points and lever lengths.

Having considered getting on a stage in my underwear, even and carrying a lot of muscle, I know even with my background getting on stage looking great at over 200lbs at 5’7” is not going to happen.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:22 pm

Bram wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:23 pm
I think unless you've done it yourself, the results of a strict, effective diet WITH a solid workout program will always seem unrealistic.

My diet is very much whatever these days. But I've seen myself lean (around 6% body fat) from 165 to 215 at 6'3", and it never was independent of my nutrition. Right now I'm at 205 and maybe 10%.

But if every thing you eat is helping you keep muscle and minimize fat storage, that shit adds up after a few weeks or months.
Bram, good post. Can you elaborate on what, in your experience, eating to help keep muscle and minimize fat storage looks like?
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:24 pm

Luke wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:59 am
motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm
That connects with something I've been thinking lately. We all have a lot of training concepts in our heads but where do you see the best builds on guys who don't seem genetically gifted and also not on the program? Guys who do physical jobs. The best I ever looked, by far, was when I was working construction. Since most people who aren't elite do far better with volume vs intensity, and since most people, myself included, tend to puss out far too quickly in the gym, maybe it's better to have a volume approach, only instead of doing sets of eight or whatevs, what about much longer sets of lower intensity?

I had the thought recently that I should get a sandbag and some farmer's walk thingies, probably DBs with fatgripz, and just walk with those about a half mile to the river and back. Since I'm not going to get yoked anyway, certainly not at this point, maybe that would be a better way to rightsize me.
FWIW, Fred Hatfield said when it comes to training there's good, better, best and best in his mind was strongman training.

You don't have to throw everything out at once to change tack; work in farmers walks etc. the day after main lifts. I've been doing it since Covid and it's been awesome. Training outside is fun and helps clear the head too.
If you could name three to five "strongman" style exercises that cover the ground you're mentioning, what would they be?
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:47 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:33 am
It's curious how "looking good" standards drift over the years. By modern standard Grimek probably wouldn't be able to get through the preliminary stage of some State bodybuilding competition. No visible veins, no muscle striations. Taking few decades back, Cristopher Reeve was looking good enough to be a Superman, a far cry from what's expected today.

In female body image it's even more strange. Try find Crossfit looking andro girl on a classical painting.three-graces.jpg
Things do fluctuate, but IMHO, they were always pretty similar until steroids completely distorted the picture to grotesque proportions. Look at the statues of Polykleitos or Lysippos, and then look at Bernini or Michelangelo. Lean and muscular, all, across the millennia.

Your art history aside is modern fat chick cope. If you look at classical statuary and mosaics going back to the Minoans, they didn't like fat chicks. Hell, even Peter Rubens didn't like fat chicks, although he painted them. Both his wives were petite little things. The abundance of his paintings was intended to be symbolic.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bram » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:48 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:22 pm
Bram wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:23 pm
I think unless you've done it yourself, the results of a strict, effective diet WITH a solid workout program will always seem unrealistic.

My diet is very much whatever these days. But I've seen myself lean (around 6% body fat) from 165 to 215 at 6'3", and it never was independent of my nutrition. Right now I'm at 205 and maybe 10%.

But if every thing you eat is helping you keep muscle and minimize fat storage, that shit adds up after a few weeks or months.
Bram, good post. Can you elaborate on what, in your experience, eating to help keep muscle and minimize fat storage looks like?
Thank you!

I think first up it is very individual. I've done best on a low-fat, low-sugar, higher-carb diet.

Carbs are strange. I basically don't have to regulate starchy carbs, provided I have the fat and protein portions dialed in. I'll naturally just fill up. But I do need to be conscious of my fruit intake. Maybe a piece of fruit with a meal at most. Or as a snack I might have two pieces. But I can't tolerate say a 1lb bag of frozen mangoes regularly or it'll end up being fat.

Protein for me has seemed to be best around my ideal bodyweight in protein grams daily. Just divided into 4-6 servings.

Fat seems to best when I consciously limit the intake...for example, a tablespoon of walnut oil with my lunch, or a half an avocado.

If I skip higher carb sources, like I'm having a salad, then I'll double or triple that fat portion. But if I just dump almonds and avocado and olive oil on my salad, I generally see the thickness forming.

Sample meal that seems to do the trick: a can of kidney or black beans, 1/2 a bag of rice cakes (~7 of them), a bowl of frozen broccoli, a tablespoon of walnut oil. Everytime I eat this, I feel like it is perfect. This is about 800 calories total.

Alcohol is last. If I can keep it to twice a week or less, and small enough portions that I never feel a hangover, then I seem to be fine.
"When you seek it, you cannot find it.” — Zen riddle

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:56 pm

Thanks Bram! Do you typically eat a vegetarian diet like the sample meal you gave?
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bram » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:51 pm

I go either way.

I honestly can't tell a difference in energy, fat, or muscle from a vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian approach.

That said I had chicken and tofu for breakfast (leftover Thai), carnitas for lunch (taco shop was out of fish and chicken), and I'm about to do beans and rice for lunch two.
"When you seek it, you cannot find it.” — Zen riddle

Bennyonesix1
Top
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:19 am

Bram wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:48 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:22 pm
Bram wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:23 pm
I think unless you've done it yourself, the results of a strict, effective diet WITH a solid workout program will always seem unrealistic.

My diet is very much whatever these days. But I've seen myself lean (around 6% body fat) from 165 to 215 at 6'3", and it never was independent of my nutrition. Right now I'm at 205 and maybe 10%.

But if every thing you eat is helping you keep muscle and minimize fat storage, that shit adds up after a few weeks or months.
Bram, good post. Can you elaborate on what, in your experience, eating to help keep muscle and minimize fat storage looks like?
Thank you!

I think first up it is very individual. I've done best on a low-fat, low-sugar, higher-carb diet.

Carbs are strange. I basically don't have to regulate starchy carbs, provided I have the fat and protein portions dialed in. I'll naturally just fill up. But I do need to be conscious of my fruit intake. Maybe a piece of fruit with a meal at most. Or as a snack I might have two pieces. But I can't tolerate say a 1lb bag of frozen mangoes regularly or it'll end up being fat.

Protein for me has seemed to be best around my ideal bodyweight in protein grams daily. Just divided into 4-6 servings.

Fat seems to best when I consciously limit the intake...for example, a tablespoon of walnut oil with my lunch, or a half an avocado.

If I skip higher carb sources, like I'm having a salad, then I'll double or triple that fat portion. But if I just dump almonds and avocado and olive oil on my salad, I generally see the thickness forming.

Sample meal that seems to do the trick: a can of kidney or black beans, 1/2 a bag of rice cakes (~7 of them), a bowl of frozen broccoli, a tablespoon of walnut oil. Everytime I eat this, I feel like it is perfect. This is about 800 calories total.

Alcohol is last. If I can keep it to twice a week or less, and small enough portions that I never feel a hangover, then I seem to be fine.
God bless you dude. But if I went on a regime like that I would be white knuckled fantasizing about tastycakes and french fries in 3 days.

Meat and dairy on the other hand never gets boring and I rarely think about food.

I obviously broke my body eating absolute crap as a teenager and in my twenties.

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bram » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:53 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:19 am

God bless you dude. But if I went on a regime like that I would be white knuckled fantasizing about tastycakes and french fries in 3 days.

Meat and dairy on the other hand never gets boring and I rarely think about food.

I obviously broke my body eating absolute crap as a teenager and in my twenties.
Food's a drug. It takes very little time to break the habit.

3-4 days without sugar and I don't even think about it. But those 3-4 days suck so fucking bad.

Junk food is more of a social thing for me. I'm content to eat bean cans and rice cakes and microwaved veggies.
"When you seek it, you cannot find it.” — Zen riddle

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6971
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Sangoma » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:45 am

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:19 am
Meat and dairy on the other hand never gets boring and I rarely think about food.

I obviously broke my body eating absolute crap as a teenager and in my twenties.
Amen for meat and dairy. And no, you broke nothing.
Image

Bennyonesix1
Top
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:56 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:45 am
Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:19 am
Meat and dairy on the other hand never gets boring and I rarely think about food.

I obviously broke my body eating absolute crap as a teenager and in my twenties.
Amen for meat and dairy. And no, you broke nothing.
Idk. When I eat starches and carbs I spend most of the day thinking about food and my next meal. That seems extremely pathological.

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 11208
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:08 pm

Hold up.
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:51 pm
Remember Glassman's old saying

For amount of muscle
Bodybuilders on steroids
Crossfitters on steroids
Crossfitters no drugs
Bodybuilders no drugs

This turned out to be a very real thing. Low levels of bodyfat are an assumption here.
It did? When he said that, it was a howler. I recall it being in the mid-to-late aughts when the saying went "CrossFit turns women into men and men into women." The guy who won the first CrossFit games was about 165 pounds. The couple prominent CFers I met in that timeframe crushed workouts but "looked like they exercised." Then the prize money rolled in and everybody got on gear. No judgement on that, but it seemed obvious these yoked dues are enhanced.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:35 pm

Bram wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:53 am
Junk food is more of a social thing for me. I'm content to eat bean cans and rice cakes and microwaved veggies.
I really don't eat junk food, socially or otherwise. But, a real key is your second sentence here: finding foods that suit your needs that you don't mind having repeatedly. I already gave examples of the kind of things I can have all week and not get sick of.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Beer Jew » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:47 pm

For naturals, my belief is most dont work anywhere near hard enough to build muscle. Most naturals I know flit between strength and a closeted desire to be bigger, without wanting to truly control their diet or work like a maniac in the gym. I think the internet and prevalence of steroid accusations has introduced significant self-imposed limitations on how hard people work.

Shafs CrossFit point may hold true but I think it’s because (1) there’s nowhere to hide in CrossFit. You work damn hard. (2) most are prob actually on the gear. But (3) and most importantly...

If you’re natural, being lean is where it’s at. Very difficult to be significantly large and natural.

For naturals I think strength across rep ranges plays a big part. Lazy focusing on 1rms will give you nothing mass-wise. A focus on getting stronger at all rep ranges, across a wide variety of movements with diet and recovery dialled in will let you build significant muscle. Not gear muscle but enough to look like you lift.

Things that don’t help in my experience:

- Inconsistency either in training or diet. A week off here or there or a weekend bingeing can be brushed under the rug on the gear. Natural that shit will set you back.. constantly 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

- Solely focussing on compounds. Copy bodybuilders if you want to be big. Direct arm work, direct ab work, lots of lateral and rear lateral raises, lots of upper back work.

- Training like a powerlifter. “Practicing” the big lifts multiple times per week. No bodybuilder natural or enhanced trains like that. The IPF guys who do that and are jacked are either on the gear or doing a shit load of accessory work.

- Training too easy. Most people have no idea how hard they can push themselves. Most the time you have another 6,7,8 reps in the tank. The old adage is true in my experience. Those reps drive growth.

- Fucking up your sleep. In my opinion this Has been the biggest detriment to my ability to build muscle. I’ve never averaged more than 6 hours or less per night which is much less than ideal in my experience.

- Fear of calories and protein. Also learning how many calories you actually need and sticking to that pretty rigidly.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:04 pm

Beer Jew wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:47 pm
- Training like a powerlifter. “Practicing” the big lifts multiple times per week. No bodybuilder natural or enhanced trains like that. The IPF guys who do that and are jacked are either on the gear or doing a shit load of accessory work.
I agree with every point you make except this one. To me, it's almost impossible to make progress with typical bodybuilding workouts, unless you program and progress at a few key lifts. It's what has allowed me to drive up the weights I curl, chin, dip, raise, etc.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 2480
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by newguy » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:26 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:04 pm
Beer Jew wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:47 pm
- Training like a powerlifter. “Practicing” the big lifts multiple times per week. No bodybuilder natural or enhanced trains like that. The IPF guys who do that and are jacked are either on the gear or doing a shit load of accessory work.
I agree with every point you make except this one. To me, it's almost impossible to make progress with typical bodybuilding workouts, unless you program and progress at a few key lifts. It's what has allowed me to drive up the weights I curl, chin, dip, raise, etc.
Lift heavy (ish), progress over time, do bodybuilding work.

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Beer Jew » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:53 pm

Fat Cat - I agree. But In my experience people who train like powerlifters (like I did for a long time) tend to leave far too many reps in the tank in the pursuit of frequent training. Great for getting strong, but no one greases the groove to get big.

I can do 5 dead stop triples on the deadlift with say 500, or 3 tng sets of 10 with 405 with constant tension. Both will make me stronger, only one of those is going to destroy my traps and make me bigger. By all means hit submaximal sets but if you’re not repping out to just shy of failure, you’re not going to grow.

Luke
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:19 am

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Luke » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:26 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:24 pm
Luke wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:59 am
motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm
That connects with something I've been thinking lately. We all have a lot of training concepts in our heads but where do you see the best builds on guys who don't seem genetically gifted and also not on the program? Guys who do physical jobs. The best I ever looked, by far, was when I was working construction. Since most people who aren't elite do far better with volume vs intensity, and since most people, myself included, tend to puss out far too quickly in the gym, maybe it's better to have a volume approach, only instead of doing sets of eight or whatevs, what about much longer sets of lower intensity?

I had the thought recently that I should get a sandbag and some farmer's walk thingies, probably DBs with fatgripz, and just walk with those about a half mile to the river and back. Since I'm not going to get yoked anyway, certainly not at this point, maybe that would be a better way to rightsize me.
FWIW, Fred Hatfield said when it comes to training there's good, better, best and best in his mind was strongman training.

You don't have to throw everything out at once to change tack; work in farmers walks etc. the day after main lifts. I've been doing it since Covid and it's been awesome. Training outside is fun and helps clear the head too.
If you could name three to five "strongman" style exercises that cover the ground you're mentioning, what would they be?

This list frequently comes up in Josh's writing:

Sled Drags - I'm sure you've heard about the best Finnish deadlifters essentially doing this in their day jobs moving logs. Makes my knees feel great and quads explode. Gases the fuck out of me as well. With different straps or attachments you can row too. I have Spud Inc's Magic Carpet sled. Very easy to store; possibilities are endless.

Yoke Walks - Don't have a Yoke? Spud Inc. make straps for bars that turn them into yokes. Pretty decent, but setup can be a bit clunky compared to a legit yoke.

Zercher Carries

Farmer's Walks - Can use dumbbells, a trap bar etc. if no specialist implements.

Bryant's recommendations:
Tech improvement - 4-10 sets, 40-60 feet, with 50-70% of maximal load. Full recovery between sets.
Max strength - 2-5 sets for as little as 10 feet (no more than 50 feet) Full recovery between sets with 85-100% of max load.
Hypertrophy - 2-4 sets with 65-85% of max load, for 30-60 seconds straight. Resting 2-3 mins per set. Wear straps.
Overload - 100%+ and do a static hold for 5-10 seconds, 1-2 sets. If grip limits you, wear straps.

In a traditional bodybuilding or powerbuilding split, the farmer's walk would be performed on a legs or back day.
I highly doubt I'll ever know my true max in this area so I pick something hard and walk a set distance near my house. Up/down stairs etc.

Without getting too long-winded, there's more in his book Tactical Hypertrophy - particularly the triple extension stuff like keg throws, tire flips etc.

Tom Haviland is trained by Bryant, you can see examples of the lifts and their work below:

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by SubClaw » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:01 am

Beer Jew wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:47 pm
Fucking up your sleep. In my opinion this Has been the biggest detriment to my ability to build muscle. I’ve never averaged more than 6 hours or less per night which is much less than ideal in my experience.
This!

I very rarely get more than five hours of sleep (which, to make things worse, are very low quality) and any type of gain is twice as harder.
Image

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by SubClaw » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:03 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:04 pm
I agree with every point you make except this one. To me, it's almost impossible to make progress with typical bodybuilding workouts, unless you program and progress at a few key lifts. It's what has allowed me to drive up the weights I curl, chin, dip, raise, etc.
I always thought 5/3/1 was basically a well structured and laid back bodybuilding program.

5/3/1 + 5x5 FSL + 50-100 reps per accessory should create a fair amount of hypertrophy.
Image

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:32 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:03 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:04 pm
I agree with every point you make except this one. To me, it's almost impossible to make progress with typical bodybuilding workouts, unless you program and progress at a few key lifts. It's what has allowed me to drive up the weights I curl, chin, dip, raise, etc.
I always thought 5/3/1 was basically a well structured and laid back bodybuilding program.

5/3/1 + 5x5 FSL + 50-100 reps per accessory should create a fair amount of hypertrophy.
Yes, exactly. It's a bro split. For the past 6-8 months I've done 4 sessions a week:

Saturday: Press, DB Press, Lat. Raise, Curls, Concentration Curls (Shoulders and Bi's)
Sunday: Deadlift, Chins, Shrugs, Rows, Situps (Back and Core)
Tuesday: Bench, Dips or DB Bench, Fly, Lying Triceps Extensions, Pushups (Chest and Tri's)
Thursday: Squat, more squats, abs (Legs and Core)

Now what you describe in your last line is identical to some of Wendler's later recommendations like this: https://jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler ... a-beginner
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:33 pm

Luke wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:26 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:24 pm
Luke wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:59 am
motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm
That connects with something I've been thinking lately. We all have a lot of training concepts in our heads but where do you see the best builds on guys who don't seem genetically gifted and also not on the program? Guys who do physical jobs. The best I ever looked, by far, was when I was working construction. Since most people who aren't elite do far better with volume vs intensity, and since most people, myself included, tend to puss out far too quickly in the gym, maybe it's better to have a volume approach, only instead of doing sets of eight or whatevs, what about much longer sets of lower intensity?

I had the thought recently that I should get a sandbag and some farmer's walk thingies, probably DBs with fatgripz, and just walk with those about a half mile to the river and back. Since I'm not going to get yoked anyway, certainly not at this point, maybe that would be a better way to rightsize me.
FWIW, Fred Hatfield said when it comes to training there's good, better, best and best in his mind was strongman training.

You don't have to throw everything out at once to change tack; work in farmers walks etc. the day after main lifts. I've been doing it since Covid and it's been awesome. Training outside is fun and helps clear the head too.
If you could name three to five "strongman" style exercises that cover the ground you're mentioning, what would they be?

This list frequently comes up in Josh's writing:

Sled Drags - I'm sure you've heard about the best Finnish deadlifters essentially doing this in their day jobs moving logs. Makes my knees feel great and quads explode. Gases the fuck out of me as well. With different straps or attachments you can row too. I have Spud Inc's Magic Carpet sled. Very easy to store; possibilities are endless.

Yoke Walks - Don't have a Yoke? Spud Inc. make straps for bars that turn them into yokes. Pretty decent, but setup can be a bit clunky compared to a legit yoke.

Zercher Carries

Farmer's Walks - Can use dumbbells, a trap bar etc. if no specialist implements.

Bryant's recommendations:
Tech improvement - 4-10 sets, 40-60 feet, with 50-70% of maximal load. Full recovery between sets.
Max strength - 2-5 sets for as little as 10 feet (no more than 50 feet) Full recovery between sets with 85-100% of max load.
Hypertrophy - 2-4 sets with 65-85% of max load, for 30-60 seconds straight. Resting 2-3 mins per set. Wear straps.
Overload - 100%+ and do a static hold for 5-10 seconds, 1-2 sets. If grip limits you, wear straps.

In a traditional bodybuilding or powerbuilding split, the farmer's walk would be performed on a legs or back day.
I highly doubt I'll ever know my true max in this area so I pick something hard and walk a set distance near my house. Up/down stairs etc.

Without getting too long-winded, there's more in his book Tactical Hypertrophy - particularly the triple extension stuff like keg throws, tire flips etc.

Tom Haviland is trained by Bryant, you can see examples of the lifts and their work below:
Thanks very much for all this info. I really appreciate it.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Bram » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:53 pm

Luke wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:26 am
This dude's a fucking beast.

I appreciate the combination of his diet + training split.

Without a doubt training each body part twice a week (or thrice) has always led to more strength and muscle for myself.

The issue for me is integrating athletic training in that split, along with surfing. So I do a legs/upper pull/upper push/full. It's not great for hypertrophy, but works great for what I want.

As an aside, the dedication to eat however many calories your body needs, in whatever combination works best, is probably the largest contributor to appearance gains. You might hate eating as much as you need, or as little as you need, or as often as you need. But if you can separate from that and just do the work - all the results you might want are waiting for you.
"When you seek it, you cannot find it.” — Zen riddle

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:48 pm

I agree with the spirit of your post, Bram but let's not pretend that this guy isn't gassed up. There's a lot more than solid nutrition and 10 hours of sleep at work here.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 39749
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:54 pm

Luke wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:26 am
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:24 pm
Luke wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:59 am
motherjuggs&speed wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm
That connects with something I've been thinking lately. We all have a lot of training concepts in our heads but where do you see the best builds on guys who don't seem genetically gifted and also not on the program? Guys who do physical jobs. The best I ever looked, by far, was when I was working construction. Since most people who aren't elite do far better with volume vs intensity, and since most people, myself included, tend to puss out far too quickly in the gym, maybe it's better to have a volume approach, only instead of doing sets of eight or whatevs, what about much longer sets of lower intensity?

I had the thought recently that I should get a sandbag and some farmer's walk thingies, probably DBs with fatgripz, and just walk with those about a half mile to the river and back. Since I'm not going to get yoked anyway, certainly not at this point, maybe that would be a better way to rightsize me.
FWIW, Fred Hatfield said when it comes to training there's good, better, best and best in his mind was strongman training.

You don't have to throw everything out at once to change tack; work in farmers walks etc. the day after main lifts. I've been doing it since Covid and it's been awesome. Training outside is fun and helps clear the head too.
If you could name three to five "strongman" style exercises that cover the ground you're mentioning, what would they be?

This list frequently comes up in Josh's writing:

Sled Drags - I'm sure you've heard about the best Finnish deadlifters essentially doing this in their day jobs moving logs. Makes my knees feel great and quads explode. Gases the fuck out of me as well. With different straps or attachments you can row too. I have Spud Inc's Magic Carpet sled. Very easy to store; possibilities are endless.

Yoke Walks - Don't have a Yoke? Spud Inc. make straps for bars that turn them into yokes. Pretty decent, but setup can be a bit clunky compared to a legit yoke.

Zercher Carries

Farmer's Walks - Can use dumbbells, a trap bar etc. if no specialist implements.

Bryant's recommendations:
Tech improvement - 4-10 sets, 40-60 feet, with 50-70% of maximal load. Full recovery between sets.
Max strength - 2-5 sets for as little as 10 feet (no more than 50 feet) Full recovery between sets with 85-100% of max load.
Hypertrophy - 2-4 sets with 65-85% of max load, for 30-60 seconds straight. Resting 2-3 mins per set. Wear straps.
Overload - 100%+ and do a static hold for 5-10 seconds, 1-2 sets. If grip limits you, wear straps.

In a traditional bodybuilding or powerbuilding split, the farmer's walk would be performed on a legs or back day.
I highly doubt I'll ever know my true max in this area so I pick something hard and walk a set distance near my house. Up/down stairs etc.

Without getting too long-winded, there's more in his book Tactical Hypertrophy - particularly the triple extension stuff like keg throws, tire flips etc.

Tom Haviland is trained by Bryant, you can see examples of the lifts and their work below:
You mentioned a book called Tactical Hypertrophy and I searched but have not found it. Did you mean this one (?): https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Strongm ... 386&sr=8-1

Or could you link to the item you're talking about?
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

Post Reply