Strong Endurance

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Ryan
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:04 pm

newguy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:19 am
Sangoma wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm
It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
You reckon? I think it's somewhat similar. You progress from many short sets to fewer and longer. In strength endurance the duration of alactic bursts is determined by heart rate. You progress by being able to do longer sets at the same heart rate - more reps in a set and have shorter rest. In Staley's EDT your set is determined by the strength (which reflects in the quality of form), and you also progress to fewer longer sets as you get stronger (ultimately one long set).
I don't know if it is splitting hairs, but this - moving to one long set - is not what EDT is.

EDT was using two opposing exercises. Picking a weight. in a given block - 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever - increasing the reps over a block of time. once you increased reps by X percent you increased weight.

It does not matter how the sets work out. You could go from 6 sets of 5 to 50 singles.

The point I am making is that there was never any idea that the reps per set increased.

Only that the total reps increased.
There are similarities, but the point of Strong Endurance is to increase the capacity to do repeated bouts of short bursts of high intensity/power work (typically 10 seconds or less) by allowing longer rests so the aerobic energy system is forced to make ATP more quickly. You can add sets as you adapt, but if you increase the work period beyond a certain time, you are getting out of the alactic time frame. That's why heart rate is monitored and the glycolytic pathway is avoided. This increases mitochondria, while glycolytic work damages mitochondria.

Here's Randy Hauer's (StrongFirst) explanation:
Enter AGT.

The key is repeated bursts of short intense work with lots of rest consistently practiced over weeks or months.

Let’s break that down…

...bursts of short intense work... - 10 seconds of heavy swings, fast viking push presses, even a few steps of a heavy sled push. What we’re doing here is using up all of our money in the wallet. We’re getting the most out of the energy we have stored for immediate use.

...lots of rest... - we like to have 4:1 or more rest:work. That gives us enough time to regenerate the ATP so that we can go fast again. We’re waiting for our dividends to refill our wallet. The beta-oxidation is refilling our batteries, and that takes time.

...repeated bursts... - we do this for 15 to 30 minutes, sometimes up to an hour. If we do it long enough, we don’t quite recover fully between sets. That means we will need to very lightly tap into glycolysis. We’ll use the credit card a little, but not so much that we can’t pay the balance at the end of the month. We’re training that pathway without over-doing it and causing damages.

...practiced over weeks or months - If you keep coming back, day after day doing these style of workouts. It will tell your body that you need to have more efficient beta-oxidation to fill up your wallet quicker. Since any one mitochondrion cannot supply too much energy at once, your body builds even more mitochondria. You can burn more fat to make more ATP, you’ll have a lot of slow reactions happening in parallel. You’ll get a high power output without stressing your body. This is like re-investing your dividends. The compounding effect will build your investment so that you can have even more income later. Building more mitochondria will let you effortlessly generate ATP quickly - improving your power output.
Personally, I'd rather spend my time with low rep strength work and traditional LSD cardio.
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Sangoma
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:23 pm

newguy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:19 am
Sangoma wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm
It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
You reckon? I think it's somewhat similar. You progress from many short sets to fewer and longer. In strength endurance the duration of alactic bursts is determined by heart rate. You progress by being able to do longer sets at the same heart rate - more reps in a set and have shorter rest. In Staley's EDT your set is determined by the strength (which reflects in the quality of form), and you also progress to fewer longer sets as you get stronger (ultimately one long set).
I don't know if it is splitting hairs, but this - moving to one long set - is not what EDT is.

EDT was using two opposing exercises. Picking a weight. in a given block - 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever - increasing the reps over a block of time. once you increased reps by X percent you increased weight.

It does not matter how the sets work out. You could go from 6 sets of 5 to 50 singles.

The point I am making is that there was never any idea that the reps per set increased.

Only that the total reps increased.
It's is splitting hairs, but that's what Irongarm is about: fighting over meaningless stuff while coming up with creative insults (gone are the days of referring to sisters and mothers, this place is another level of sophistication). Anyway, even though it was Staley who first coined the term EDT the concept has been around forever. In this context increasing (escalating if you will) density meaning doing the same lifting volume in less time. Or more volume in the same time. Shouldn't matter if it's many sets or one.

The concept has been used forever. Popular preparation programs for half-marathon, for example, start from short runs separated by longer walks. Gradually the running bouts increase while walks get shorter and eventually get eliminated. That's increasing density. In girevoy sport - pretty popular Russian progression from ten one minute sets to five two minute sets to three three minute sets etc., etc. - increasing density. You can find examples pretty much anywhere.
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Sangoma
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:43 pm

Ryan, the concept of AGT or A+A has evolved over time. It's still repeated short bursts of high power lifting, but at some time someone over there introduced Maffetone's ideas of aerobic training. As you know Maffetone's method is limiting intensity to HR = 180-age. His gauge for measuring progress is one mile test which you run at the same HR. The idea being that with time you will run faster at the same heart rate. We can argue, but again, this is increasing density.

With A+A training the guys are doing said bursts till HR reaches MAF level, then rest until it gets down to arbitrary number, anything around MAF minus 10 - 20 beats/min. Their poster boy for A+A training, the guy by the name Harald Motz (you couldn't make up this name if you tried!) posted his progress with 22 repeats of 5 snatches with 40 kg from 36 minutes to 29 minutes, at the same heart rate. This is increasing density.

At the end of the day you should do what you prefer and whatever better fits the context to your training. I like the idea of A+A KB work because it kills couple or more birds in one go. And also because I am a shit runner.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:01 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:43 pm
Their poster boy for A+A training, the guy by the name Harald Motz (you couldn't make up this name if you tried!) posted his progress with 22 repeats of 5 snatches with 40 kg from 36 minutes to 29 minutes, at the same heart rate. This is increasing density.
I think we are arguing the same thing.

Those numbers are when he tested, not what they try to do every workout. The goal of the training is to increase density while keeping HR low, but the majority of the training for this test is what I posted in the link above, adding sets as you adapt to increase volume, keeping the actually work interval duration low (Al Ciampa typically recommends 2-3 rep sets using swing or snatches for power https://www.strongfirst.com/community/t ... 296/page-2 ). They then add some glycolytic work to peak for a test. Similar to what endurance athletes do, lower HR base work adding higher intensity work to peak for a race trying to get a faster time in competition.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by newguy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:33 am

What is the take away with all this? Is the Strongfirst Strong Endurace AA protocol useful for general population and purposes?

Why would would someone do it? When would they do it? At what level?

I find that 10 sets of 10 on the minute worked very well for me at one point. It is what I am building back to....very slowly and conservatively. But still.....
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:00 am

I'd say it's like going for a jog but by lifting kettlebells. The purpose of A+A is to build the aerobic energy system, which is useful for anybody. Sort of interval training with long rest periods. You become efficient getting rid of lactate.

And - Ryan is probably right - it can be HR based or time based, the principle is the same.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by newguy » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:03 am

Is there a reason a person would do this versus just doing 1 arm long cycle and switching on the minute?

I am having trouble placing this in context.

Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

Whenver I am looking to replace jogging or running with KBs, my go it is always 1 arm long cycle and switch on the minute. I've personally found it to be the most effective KB direct replacement (not supplement) for running.
"When I was little, my father was famous. He was the greatest samurai in the empire. And he was the Shogun's decapitator. He cut off the heads of a 131 Lords. It was a bad time for the empire."

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:38 pm

You could use 1 arm long cycle. You would do a few reps (not more than 5),then rest until the top of the next minute. Repeat for however many rounds you plan on doing. You're training your aerobic system with the rest period, not during the exercise. You train the alactic system with the short powerful burst of reps (why you want to keep the exercise interval to 10 seconds or less).

If you're looking to get the same cardiovascular adaptations as jogging, etc. doing just this, it ain't gonna happen.

It can help your alactic capacity to execute short powerful bursts over time. A lot of the Strongfirst people are also doing regular LSD with the A + A training, but that's not mentioned in a lot of places.+
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

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