Strong Endurance

[Shafpocalypse Now]

For those interested in this topic, Cal Dietz is on record for saying his Triphasic stuff conditions the cardiovascular system really well. This is a huge topic to talk about, his triphasic refers to the action of a muscle...concentric, isometric, eccentric. He's got a book about this that's available to read.

Some stuff of note.

One 'aerobic' workout is
50% bench x1, 50% squat x1, repeated back and forth as quickly as possible for 10 minutes
50% lat pulldown x1, 50% RDL x1, same as above
-claims the heart does not know that it's not doing 20 minutes of cyclical cardio

Another one is contralateral circuits...(like doing a split squat with a one armed press)

Heavy isometric holds...lower into a 5, 7, or 10 second hold.
-claims after 8 weeks of these type with heavy weight (split squat with SSB, bench, RDL) that heart rates in his athletes drop by 15 beats per minute and blood pressures drop as well, he claims massive improvements in capiliarization helps drive this.

he's got a youtube channel and website you can delve as deep as you want

[Fat Cat]

So it's kind of the same idea as the A+A strongfirst program? Just a brief burst of activity on the minute for X minutes to keep the heart rate in a certain range?

[Sangoma]

Looks like it. Maffetone with weights. I reckon for me it would be pushing HR to 130, then letting it drop to 120 before the next lifting bout. The only thing I would change is do more exercises - to avoid quitting too early due to muscular fatigue.

[Fat Cat]

The thing is, except for folks who live in places with really shit weather or who have some kind of disability, why not go for a jog instead and actually enjoy your workout in the outdoors?

[SubClaw]

The thing is, except for folks who live in places with really shit weather or who have some kind of disability, why not go for a jog instead and actually enjoy your workout in the outdoors?

Running makes you fitter, girevoy sport / strength endurance training makes you fitter and stronger. I can see the appeal.

Thing is, I’m not sure if running and lifting (heavy-ish) singles, doubles and triples on the minute (for a few minutes) would be a better combination.

[Fat Cat]

Running hills will definitely increase your lower body strength. But I agree with your second proposition, in fact, I'm not really aware of anything better than running + lifting heavy as a prescription for over all fitness.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Houston area running

miles of flat gravel
90+degrees F
70-100% relative humidity
gnats and mosquitos
Awesome views of ditches, levees, cattle

[Fat Cat]

Your fuckin' fault for living in Houston. Run away from there.

[Sangoma]

Running hills will definitely increase your lower body strength. But I agree with your second proposition, in fact, I'm not really aware of anything better than running + lifting heavy as a prescription for over all fitness.

I agree. There is this never ending argument of lifting vs. aerobics. To me the answer is both. Low intensity long duration jogging/cycling/swimming and low volume heavy(er) lifting.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

It's the concept of polarized training.

Either hard, or easy. No middle. This is the most useful way to train for the majority of people.

Either sprint, or jog.
Either do a pump routine, or a heavy routine.

The stuff in the middle, while it feels good, is usually a waste of time.

[SubClaw]

It's the concept of polarized training.

Either hard, or easy. No middle. This is the most useful way to train for the majority of people.

Either sprint, or jog.
Either do a pump routine, or a heavy routine.

The stuff in the middle, while it feels good, is usually a waste of time.

Ergo, training strength endurance is not that useful (unless you are a GS competitor or a rower)?

[Wild Bill]

Strong endurance.
130 pullups in one set

[Fat Cat]

That's both amazing and absolutely retarded. At some point, what is the point?

[SubClaw]

That's both amazing and absolutely retarded. At some point, what is the point?

Same as deadlifting 1000+ lbs. or running 42K in two hours, I guess.

[Fat Cat]

I get that perspective. But, conversely, DL'ing 1,000 lbs. is doing something once at a level most people can't comprehend. Doing 130 pullups is simply doing a bunch of something most people can do. It's definitely an amazing showing, but it's also a bit tedious and repetitive no?

[Sangoma]

Come on, Cat, it's the same as saying that running an ultra is the same as most people do, just a bunch more. It's one of those fringe activities that get to the Guinness Book. No practical application and very painful, both to do and watch.

[Fat Cat]

Agreed.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

It's the concept of polarized training.

Either hard, or easy. No middle. This is the most useful way to train for the majority of people.

Either sprint, or jog.
Either do a pump routine, or a heavy routine.

The stuff in the middle, while it feels good, is usually a waste of time.

Ergo, training strength endurance is not that useful (unless you are a GS competitor or a rower)?

Not at all.

In single discipline, there's a spectrum of intensity from high to low.

Strength-Endurance is a very specific thing. Doing sets of push ups or pull ups to get better at them is different that doing circuits of them to get a metabolic effect

[Blaidd Drwg]

Either hard, or easy. No middle. This is the most useful way to train for the majority of people.

Either sprint, or jog.
Either do a pump routine, or a heavy routine.

The stuff in the middle, while it feels good, is usually a waste of time.

I think this is a misapprehension of a thing which is mostly true....


The missing factor is TIME.

Over the course of the year or the month or the whatever, the bulk of the energy is best spent training the ends and working towards the middle. Why? Because moving up your top top top end and moving up your baseline are the two things which take the longest to do, are often the most persistent adaptation and quite often (despite assertions to teh contrary) are the most compatible in terms of recovery over time for most people.


Heavy Squats and rucking play well together.

Sprinting and light jogging play well together.

High intensity Skill work (throws) and tonic low intensity movement (bikram, pilates) plkay well together.

Anaerobic and Lactate threshold work and volume squatting...does not play well together for very long.

High intensity circuits of weightlifting movements and 800 meter running...does not play well together for very long.

Crossfit...does not play at all for very long.


So given a set period of time, the bulk of your energy might be spent at teh ends of the spectrum and for distinct sharp blocks of limited time you work that middle ground very very hard.

Boot Camp
Spring Football
8 Weeks Out from a SM contest
6 Weeks out from a fight

[Beer Jew]

Either hard, or easy. No middle. This is the most useful way to train for the majority of people.

Either sprint, or jog.
Either do a pump routine, or a heavy routine.

The stuff in the middle, while it feels good, is usually a waste of time.

I think this is a misapprehension of a thing which is mostly true....


The missing factor is TIME.

Over the course of the year or the month or the whatever, the bulk of the energy is best spent training the ends and working towards the middle. Why? Because moving up your top top top end and moving up your baseline are the two things which take the longest to do, are often the most persistent adaptation and quite often (despite assertions to teh contrary) are the most compatible in terms of recovery over time for most people.


Heavy Squats and rucking play well together.

Sprinting and light jogging play well together.

High intensity Skill work (throws) and tonic low intensity movement (bikram, pilates) plkay well together.

Anaerobic and Lactate threshold work and volume squatting...does not play well together for very long.

High intensity circuits of weightlifting movements and 800 meter running...does not play well together for very long.

Crossfit...does not play at all for very long.


So given a set period of time, the bulk of your energy might be spent at teh ends of the spectrum and for distinct sharp blocks of limited time you work that middle ground very very hard.

Boot Camp
Spring Football
8 Weeks Out from a SM contest
6 Weeks out from a fight

Mind explaining this a little more? Perhaps with some practical examples?

[Blaidd Drwg]

I can do anecdotes (perhaps less useful) or I can get you the sports sciencey stuff...which are you looking for? Which aspect?

Are you interested in the conclusion? (do the bulk of your work in theses silos, do punctuated work in the others) Or

The basis for the conclusion? (here's what we know about recovery times and which things interfere with which other things)

[Sangoma]

BD, while we have your presence here, what do you think would be a useful accessory work for someone doing BJJ? For myself: an older trainee, not physically gifted, training at least three times a week.

[Blaidd Drwg]

BD, while we have your presence here, what do you think would be a useful accessory work for someone doing BJJ? For myself: an older trainee, not physically gifted, training at least three times a week.

That's way outside my direct experience. IDK what's best practice for your cohort. Some chronologically advanced folks like Johno and others I've known have gotten quite a bit out of some very basic strength moves; limited number, done moderately heavy with a lot of proficiency, A squat, a pressing move, a pulling move, perhaps weighted carries. A small number of moves done at very moderate intensities. Johno uses trap bar DL with straps in ranges that Jack would call "easy strenght"...so accumulating reps in the 70% of 1rm or RPE of 6-8.5 range if those measures are useful.

That said, one of my longtime training partners is a wrestler and brown belt in BJJ who does fuck all except grapple, Bench HEAVY and squats or pulls heavy once every 10 days...He may be an outlier. IDK

If I were you I'd look into anything that lets you move through comfortable but extensive ranges of motion until load...bands, possible the KB thing....I'd be focused on getting consistently blood flow to not just the major muscles of trunk and hip but to elbows, fingers, wrists....Light tonic work would seem* to be important. I think compliance with a regime of limited things (some kind of heavy full body, some kind of press, a BW excercise like a pull up that favors ROM over load) would probably put you in good stead. I think the main thing is that you find you're proficient at it and you personally recover well from it such that it interferes as little as possible with learning your new craft.

[Sangoma]

Thanks, BD.

[Wild Bill]

what do you think would be a useful accessory work for someone doing BJJ?

Yakutian pegtop!
mobility of spine and lower back and strong grip.